Islam - What's your view on it?

  • Thread starter SalmanBH
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kennylmao
To any Muslims here, would this http://submission.org/ or this http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Main_Page be a correct source for the Quran? If not, could you maybe point me to a place that has credible information?

I can't be bothered to read and study the Quran all by myself, haha, I need a tl;dr.
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Look, you don't need to be a muslim to realize some statements are true.

"According to Islamic laws, non-Muslims in Islamic lands should be subdued and be treated as dhimmis (second class citizens). They should be coerced and intimidated to convert toIslam, through special humiliating taxes like Jizyah imposed on them. Following Prophet Muhammad's example, this has been taking place throughout Islam's history. While Muslims demand for concessions in non-Muslim countries, non-Muslims are systematically persecuted, terrorized and ethnically cleansed from Islamic lands.

In 2008 alone, there were 2,204 separate documented incidents of Islamically motivated violence which led to death. In total there were 10,779 deaths and another 18,213 critically injured. That is more people killed each and every year in the name of Islam, than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined. More than 29 people are killed in religiously motivated attacks every single day at the hands of Muslims. If you spend just one short hour reading through some of the news articles compiled on this page, there would have been another one to two deaths attributed to Islam and countless other incidents involving beatings, rapes, abductions, forced conversions, desecration of non-Muslim buildings, etc."
 
Dotini
Hate speech is, outside the law, speech that attacks a person or group on the basis of attributes such as gender, ethnic origin, religion, race, disability, or sexual orientation.
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Pick the odd one out. Five things that are logically not a choice, and one that is.

The sooner we stamp out the concept that people can be born with, and have an intrinsic religion, the better. No exceptions.
 
A few pages back I wrote a few quotes stated by a Dutch politician. Today the official report was published on a popular Dutch website and indeed the politician was right, although he used percentages that were a little bit higher than in reality.

The investigation was done by this professor:
http://www.wzb.eu/en/persons/ruud-koopmans

And this is the report (2013) with conclusions:
http://www.wzb.eu/sites/default/files/u6/koopmans_englisch_ed.pdf

In the video interview made with this professor it was concluded that 44% of the Muslim population in the Netherlands has a fundamentalistic view.

He also says that many politicians keep mentioning it's just a small group and that it has nothing to do with the Muslim population. They are obviously wrong! It makes them feel uncomfortable to adres to real problem.

Confirmed again: It's not a small group, in the Netherlands alone we are talking about 100.000 people.

Title: An uncomfortable message

http://brandpunt.incontxt.nl/seizoe...-2014/fragmenten/een-ongemakkelijke-boodschap

So yes there is a serious very serious problem with Islamic religion in Europe
 
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LeMansAid
Pick the odd one out. Five things that are logically not a choice, and one that is.

The sooner we stamp out the concept that people can be born with, and have an intrinsic religion, the better. No exceptions.
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I have to disagree on this one, religion should be included in this if it regards an individual or group of individuals.

To put it into context its a lot like the rule we have here in the forums around play the 'ball' not the 'man'; as such while its perfectly fine to be as critical as you like in regard to any religion (religions don't have rights), its not acceptable to attack an individual or group of individuals for the religion (or lack of) they follow.

This has nothing to do with the concept of 'an intrinsic religion', but rather the freedom to believe any old nonsense you like without being persecuted for it.


doblocruiser
A few pages back I wrote a few quotes stated by a Dutch politician. Today the official report was published on a popular Dutch website and indeed the politician was right, although he used percentages that were a little bit higher than in reality.

The investigation was done by this professor:
http://www.wzb.eu/en/persons/ruud-koopmans

And this is the report (2013) with conclusions:
http://www.wzb.eu/sites/default/files/u6/koopmans_englisch_ed.pdf

In the video interview made with this professor it was concluded that 44% of the Muslim population in the Netherlands has a fundamentalistic view.

Title: An uncomfortable message

http://brandpunt.incontxt.nl/seizoe...-2014/fragmenten/een-ongemakkelijke-boodschap
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Nope. Once again its a totally different set of questions to the conclusions Wilders drew.

The study is basically 'how obsessed with your sky fairy are you'?

Every single holy man from every single religion would score highly on that survey, does that make every holy man from every religion a fundamentalist? Yes it does (and it would be odd if it didn't). Does that make every holy man from every religion a potential terrorist? Of course not.

Does a correlation exist between fundamental attitudes and terrorist actions? Yes. Does that mean its the causal factor. No. Its a part of it, but its certainly not the only factor, a point the report makes and you seem to have ignored.

I would strongly suggest that you re-read the last paragraph again, as it clearly states that fundamentalist does not automatically equate to a willingness to put it into action, notable given that once you take these percentages and apply them to population numbers Europe has more Christian fundamentalists that it does Muslim fundamentalists.
 
Scaff
I have to disagree on this one, religion should be included in this if it regards an individual or group of individuals.

To put it into context its a lot like the rule we have here in the forums around play the 'ball' not the 'man'; as such while its perfectly fine to be as critical as you like in regard to any religion (religions don't have rights), its not acceptable to attack an individual or group of individuals for the religion (or lack of) they follow.

This has nothing to do with the concept of 'an intrinsic religion', but rather the freedom to believe any old nonsense you like without being persecuted for it.
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Well then there would be no need for a line at all, and it's either all allowed or all disallowed. But if we are talking about drawing a line between how and how not to limit freedom of speech, differentiating between where people make choices and where people do not is very important.

I see equating religion with ethnicity as a major problem. A religious person who says "this is what I believe" is far less dangerous than one that says "this is who I am", in my opinion.
 
LeMansAid
Well then there would be no need for a line at all, and it's either all allowed or all disallowed. But if we are talking about drawing a line between how and how not to limit freedom of speech, differentiating between where people make choices and where people do not is very important.

I see equating religion with ethnicity as a major problem. A religious person who says "this is what I believe" is far less dangerous than one that says "this is who I am", in my opinion.
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I disagree, but I don't see it as equating religion with ethnicity. Again its the play the ball not the man scenario.

Spurgy 777
@Scaff, although I pretty much agree with you, I'd still say that it is concerning that over 60% of the Muslims polled said they think the Quran is more important than the law, and that over 50% said they wouldn't want to be friends with homosexuals.
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I 100% agree that those kinds of attitudes are troubling regardless of the religion and need to be addressed, because as the report states we may have an issue with percentages in Islam, but we have an issue with numbers in Christianity (in Europe).
 
Spurgy 777
@Scaff, although I pretty much agree with you, I'd still say that it is concerning that over 60% of the Muslims polled said they think the Quran is more important than the law, and that over 50% said they wouldn't want to be friends with homosexuals.
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Indeed. The problem is majority of Muslims (I kid you not, look at all the Islamic countries) take their religion really seriously because, well that's what they're instructed to do in the Quran, and even if they don't they'll be caught by religious authorities (again, in Islamic countries). By doing so they make themselves incompatible, as humans, with modern Western society. If only they can move on and be casual Muslims, just like how most Christians have been less and less serious about religion over time. But I doubt that's gonna happen in a million years with the way things are going... What a sad predicament. :indiff:

And European countries are taking them in by the boatload. You guys don't know what you're dealing with man. Most of you are casuals, but these guys are hardcore man.

*hardcore not meaning they're all extremist, but as in they are very religious and still strictly follow stupid rules like no alcohol, no pork, no touching dogs, strict restrictions between people of opposite sex, pray five times a day, Friday prayers (nah that's okay, Chistians do the same on Sundays), etc. I mean seriously religion is a bunch of nonsense and Islam is the one with the most rules and restrictions of all. :boggled:
 
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kennylmao
Indeed. The problem is majority of Muslims (I kid you not, look at all the Islamic countries) take their religion really seriously because, well that's what they're instructed to do in the Quran, and even if they don't they'll be caught by religious authorities. By doing so they make themselves incompatible, as humans, with modern Western society. If only they can move on and be casual Muslims, just like how most Christians have been less and less serious about religion over time. But I doubt that's gonna happen in a million years with the way things are going... What a sad predicament. :indiff:

And European countries are taking them in by the boatload. You guys don't know what you're dealing with man. Most of you are casuals, but these guys are hardcore man.

*hardcore not meaning they're all extremist, but as in they are very religious and still strictly follow stupid rules like no alcohol, no pork, no touching dogs, strict restrictions between people of opposite sex, pray five times a day, Friday prayers (nah that's okay, Chistians do the same on Sundays), etc. I mean seriously religion is a bunch of nonsense and Islam is the one with the most rules and restrictions of all. :boggled:
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What exactly do you mean by caught by religious authorities? :odd: There's no such thing as a religious police in Muslim countries that force people to practice Islam. Nobody can force anyone to bow their heads in prayer unwillingly.

Islam is a choice not a requirement, people can choose not to follow and it's as simple as that.

Edit: Muslims are allowed to touch dogs :lol:
 
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SAFFY
What exactly do you mean by caught by religious authorities? There's no such thing as a religious police in Muslim countries that force people to practice Islam. Nobody can force anyone to bow their heads in prayer unwillingly.

Islam is a choice not a requirement, people can choose not to follow and it's as simple as that.
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Which Muslim country is that? I need to know.

At least here where I live, every single person of Malay heritage is a Muslim. Born a Muslim, always a Muslim. It's as if freedom of religion doesn't apply to Muslims. There are some apostates, they just keep a low profile to avoid trouble. Officially on their Identification card though, it still says they're a Muslim. And then there's the religious authorities who go on operations enforcing Islam on the Muslims here. They go around patrolling and catching Muslims who don't follow the religion; Muslim couples who hang out together who aren't yet married (one time they even ramped up the operations because it was Valentine's day :lol:), Muslims who drink, etc.

Edit: :lol: I know, they just need to wash their hands, or something like that. Most of the Muslims I know though would rather not touch a dog and avoid people who do touch dogs. Only the more modern, casual Muslims do. I met a guy once who has a pair of Siberian Huskies, such a cool fella. :D Again, back to my previous point, if only most Muslims could move on and not be so serious about religion...

I saw a video of Richard Dawkins recently, in debate with an Imam on the topic of Islam, 'The Religion of Peace'.

"What's the penalty for apostasy?", he asked.
 
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kennylmao
Indeed. The problem is majority of Muslims (I kid you not, look at all the Islamic countries) take their religion really seriously because, well that's what they're instructed to do in the Quran, and even if they don't they'll be caught by religious authorities (again, in Islamic countries). By doing so they make themselves incompatible, as humans, with modern Western society. If only they can move on and be casual Muslims, just like how most Christians have been less and less serious about religion over time. But I doubt that's gonna happen in a million years with the way things are going... What a sad predicament. :indiff:
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Your mental picture of what the majority of country in which Islam is the dominant religion is seriously off kilter, yes a few are like that (and need to change and have people within them driving that change) but most are not.

I work with the Middle East and quite frankly the majority of Muslims I meet fall into the casual side of religion and religious police are not a factor in all the countries either.



kennylmao
And European countries are taking them in by the boatload. You guys don't know what you're dealing with man. Most of you are casuals, but these guys are hardcore man.
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Not all of them.


kennylmao
*hardcore not meaning they're all extremist, but as in they are very religious and still strictly follow stupid rules like no alcohol, no pork, no touching dogs, strict restrictions between people of opposite sex, pray five times a day, Friday prayers (nah that's okay, Chistians do the same on Sundays), etc. I mean seriously religion is a bunch of nonsense and Islam is the one with the most rules and restrictions of all. :boggled:
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Odd that the ones I work with are not all like this.

Yes Islam does have some serious issues (as do all religions and I certainly have issues with all of them), but it certainly doesn't apply to all.

The issue I have with the kind of blanket condemnation is that it does very little to encourage moderation at all, potentially quite the opposite; isolate anyone and its likely to only harden the stance.
 
Religions evolve. They come up with new tricks. For example:-
  • Offering life after death gains converts.
  • Offering forgiveness of sins encourages converts.
  • If the religion has dire consequences for apostasy, that's one way of keeping adherents from straying.
  • Killing "non faithful" emphasizes the importance of following the faith, and can gain converts.
  • Subjugating women makes a religion more attractive to those in power. (Men)
  • Religions offer the inner circle power over others. Power is attractive.
  • Demonstrating that a religion is so important that adherents will blow themselves up in its name is good marketing.
  • Offering large numbers of virgins recruits suicide bomber candidates.
  • Each suicide bomber has a multiplier effect. The religion loses one adherent but gains in radicalizing many others.
Like viruses and parasites, religions don't care about their hosts or non-host organisms. Religions change, and if those changes benefit the religion (by creating more adherents), the changes are more likely to be kept. Some changes to religions are benign to humanity, some are not.
 
kennylmao
Which Muslim country is that? I need to know.

At least here where I live, every single person of Malay heritage is a Muslim. Born a Muslim, always a Muslim. It's as if freedom of religion doesn't apply to Muslims. There are some apostates, they just keep a low profile to avoid trouble. Officially on their Identification card though, it still says they're a Muslim. And then there's the religious authorities who go on operations enforcing Islam on the Muslims here. They go around patrolling and catching Muslims who don't follow the religion; Muslim couples who hang out together who aren't yet married (one time they even ramped up the operations because it was Valentine's day :lol:), Muslims who drink, etc.

Edit: :lol: I know, they just need to wash their hands, or something like that. Most of the Muslims I know though would rather not touch a dog and avoid people who do touch dogs. Only the more modern, casual Muslims do. I met a guy once who has a pair of Siberian Huskies, such a cool fella. :D Again, back to my previous point, if only most Muslims could move on and not be so serious about religion...

I saw a video of Richard Dawkins recently, in debate with an Imam on the topic of Islam, 'The Religion of Peace'.

"What's the penalty for apostasy?", he asked.
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Pardon my ignorance, there is a death penalty for Muslims who abandon their religion.
 
SAFFY
Pardon my ignorance, there is a death penalty for Muslims who abandon their religion.
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Yep. Just as Christians and Jews should if they actually followed the text.

Fortunately not every one it's a total nutter (but too many still are).
 
BobK
Could you tell us where in the text (by which I presume you mean Bible, but I could be wrong) that might be?
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Mainly in Kings, Gideon in particular slaughters whole groups of people for turning from god and worshipping idols.

It makes the penalty for apostasy quite clear.
 
Furinkazen
Yes, and of course this will be implemented to every single muslim who does such a thing right? :rolleyes:
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Yes.

Scaff
Yep. Just as Christians and Jews should if they actually followed the text.
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I had a feeling that all Abrahamic religions had similar penalties, but wasn't sure as I haven't studied Christianity or Judaism to be dead certain.
 
Spurgy 777
@Scaff, although I pretty much agree with you, I'd still say that it is concerning that over 60% of the Muslims polled said they think the Quran is more important than the law, and that over 50% said they wouldn't want to be friends with homosexuals.
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Which is, apparently, much lower than the percentage of Russian Christians who said the same thing. So what's the point?

My worry in the UK at the present is the misunderstanding of "jihad".

Recently the British press have made much of a British youth who was killed in an airstrike after he joined a Syrian jihad. Good hit, right?

Actually... the jihad he was part of was fighting IS, because you CAN have inter-Islaamic jihad. So our press actually only want Christians to fight IS (I hesitate to say Daesh, @SalmanBH, but I'd love to hear more about the majority's view where you are).

Currently press/governments seem more concerned with the religions whose names are being used in one-context-or-another than the actual military/sociological sum of evil actions. Getting into religious definitions is pointless (and probably disingenuous) when the military and political situation is already.
 
The right-wingers here where I live always label minorities as 'ungrateful' and tell them to leave if they don't like the country. I am indeed ungrateful and would gladly leave the country because unequal rights, etc. But a moment of humility, at least I don't live in Indonesia. Missed it by that much. :P http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/news/coming-soon-aceh-shariah-law-non-muslims/?

I hope the Malaysian government don't plan on following Indonesia's footsteps. :scared:

"Oh hey look, what a good model Indonesia's new law is!"
 
zzz_pt
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/29/iran-executes-man-heresy-mohsen-amir-aslani
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The story makes me think that Islam differs from other religions in that it drives people to extremes. Examples include:-

Martyrdom - think suicide bombing as an offensive weapon
Violence - think of beheadings and video recording of these acts
Religious conflict - example of Sunni/Shia "sectarian" violence which has been going on since the 7th century
Clothing - there is a big difference between a necklace with a symbol, or a kippah and the full body-covering burka.
Treatment of Women - education, rights, freedoms
Sharia law punishments - flogging, dismemberment, death by stoning etc

While other religions may have harsh rules, for example regarding apostasy, they generally don't execute people for "thought crimes".
 
GBO Possum
The story makes me think that Islam differs from other religions in that it drives people to extremes. Examples include:-

Martyrdom - think suicide bombing as an offensive weapon
Violence - think of beheadings and video recording of these acts
Religious conflict - example of Sunni/Shia "sectarian" violence which has been going on since the 7th century
Clothing - there is a big difference between a necklace with a symbol, or a kippah and the full body-covering burka.
Treatment of Women - education, rights, freedoms
Sharia law punishments - flogging, dismemberment, death by stoning etc

While other religions may have harsh rules, for example regarding apostasy, they generally don't execute people for "thought crimes".
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While I'm sure it was never as major a story in the US as it was here, sectarian violence is alive and well within the Christian community and until very recently was aired in a rather bloody and violent campaign that included beatings, torture and summary executions.

The IRA also seriously considered using suicide bombers at one point, only turning away from them because they might be bad publicity, and they had no problem in effectively forcing others to become suicide bombers via the proxy bomb campaign.

In fact apart from being more mental in clothing I'm pretty sure you could apply every single one of those to a far few religions, particularly sub-Saharan Christianity via the LRA and the treatment of the gay community.
 

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