Islam - What's your view on it?

  • Thread starter SalmanBH
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I wouldn't say the IRA were Christian in the same sense ISIS/Daesh are Islamic. From what I know, the IRA are more driven by nationalism than religious fundamentalism. Probably the closest thing to an armed Christian fundamentalist organisation during the Troubles would have been Ian Paisley's "Third Force".
 
As we are talking about Daesh

Don't you think military wise, it is "good" that happend. They are regrouping all the little cells into one big, with a "clear" territory. Easier to attack than splinter cells. That was the whole problem with terrorist the last 10-15 years. It was not dicernable. Now they are regrouping.

?

What do you think?

Also I think they are shooting themselves in the nuts.
While I find it an absolute disgrace for the human race how they act and kill innocent unarmed civilians (never watched a vid, never will) (Foley's last letter deeply sadend me)
I think they are not achieving what they aim for. They try to scare us, right. I am not scared. It makes me angry and furious.
Want my get go to bomb the crap out of them? Please go ahead. And I think a lot of people are thinking like that. Before this, as mass bombing isn't chirugical precision business, you always have to think twice about it.
Now, please go ahead. Destroy those motherducks

i know that there are alot of respectable poeple in that part of the world and that this is just an extremist minority, but it's human nature to make amalgamation after a certain time of seeing always the same...

I loved the movie "lone survivor" as it took a step back, tried to not get all apostal about right or wrong, but it showed both side inside what we sometime think is one camp, one extreme religion

Ohh don't know if it was discussed, but they are using rape as a weapon as it happend during a lot of wars.

I would have loved to live in a parallel universe with no religon. beliefs yes, but no religion.
Imagine Christianism would not have existed. The middle age would have been shorter or not happened. 1000 years of repression from the church and holdbacks.... gone
 
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DK
I wouldn't say the IRA were Christian in the same sense ISIS/Daesh are Islamic. From what I know, the IRA are more driven by nationalism than religious fundamentalism. Probably the closest thing to an armed Christian fundamentalist organisation during the Troubles would have been Ian Paisley's "Third Force".
And what are IS/Daesh up to right now?

Building a nation. Historically its been rather difficult to split the concept of religion and nation/empire building.

In both cases (and the LRA in SS Africa) the religion and in particular the sectarian nature of it is deeply intertwined by the 'cause' of uniting/building a nation. A united Ireland the case of the IRA, the retention of NI in the case of the UDF and the building of a Caliphate in the case of IS.

What also links them is that in all these cases the main ones who suffer for it are people of the self same religion.

Religion is a bad idea in my opinion, but that doesn't mean that everyone who follows a religion is a fundamentalist, quiet the opposite is generally true.

That's the point I make in regard to the 'list' of what makes Islam the 'worst'. Not only is that list inaccurate for the majority of Muslims, but most if not all of the points can be applied to a great number of other religions once you look at the fundamental elements within them.

While women's rights are an issue in a lot of Muslim states, the exact same can be said for a large number of Christian, Buddhist and Hindi countries; the question once again becomes is this a directly religious issue, is it a cultural one or is it a complex mix of both these factors?

I could for example use the most populous Muslim country (Indonesia) and the most populous Christian country (the US) and conclude that the US is more biased against women on the basis that it has never had a female head of state. That would of course be an absurd simplification, yet that's the kind of thing we are seeing here.

I loved the movie "lone survivor" as it took a step back, tried to not get all apostal about right or wrong, but it showed both side inside what we sometime think is one camp, one extreme religion
What is even more interesting is when you read the actual events, as the big US saves the day bit at the end never happened. The Afghan villagers stood alone against the Taliban and saw off a number of night raids by them when they attempted to capture Luttrell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lone_Survivor_(film)#Historical_accuracy

Hollywood FTW
 
^Every belief taken to the extreme will be bad. What "taken to the extreme" has resulted in something good?
I can't think of a single thing... middle ground rocks :D

Thanks for enlighting me on the end. After the movie I watched Lutrell on Youtube, what happend to his dog, ... this I didn't know. But either way the important thing I got out was the bravery the villagers showed to save a stranger life.
 
^Every belief taken to the extreme will be bad. What "taken to the extreme" has resulted in something good?
I can't think of a single thing... middle ground rocks :D

Thanks for enlighting me on the end. After the movie I watched Lutrell on Youtube, what happend to his dog, ... this I didn't know. But either way the important thing I got out was the bravery the villagers showed to save a stranger life.
Interestingly (and on topic) the villagers were Pashtun's, who despite being Muslim were heavily persecuted by the Taliban over the decades, one of the reasons for which was the status that traditionally women hold within Pashtun culture. Hold positions up to an on par with men within village life.
 
It's pretty astonishing that Jewish people, which can be counted in millions, have won several times more Nobel awards than Muslims, who total at about 1.5 billion right now. I wonder how this can be possible. Probably because of "racism". :rolleyes:
 
Isn't it funny how you can find all of these little statistics when you look hard enough? Like the number of Muslims who have won Nobel prizes. Or the correlation between conservatives and bigotry.
 
While I'm sure it was never as major a story in the US as it was here, sectarian violence is alive and well within the Christian community and until very recently was aired in a rather bloody and violent campaign that included beatings, torture and summary executions.

The IRA also seriously considered using suicide bombers at one point, only turning away from them because they might be bad publicity, and they had no problem in effectively forcing others to become suicide bombers via the proxy bomb campaign.

In fact apart from being more mental in clothing I'm pretty sure you could apply every single one of those to a far few religions, particularly sub-Saharan Christianity via the LRA and the treatment of the gay community.

My point is that it's a matter of degree. All religions, or most of them, use reprehensible techniques on people. Yes, the IRA may have considered suicide bombing. To actually do it en masse requires something that they did not have.

The IRA was/is also a localized phenomenon, and not entirely based on religion. The LRA is also local, and different to the IRA.

Islam is not local. Its extremism stretches from North and West Africa to Aceh. Its extremism has a certain consistency about it across a wide swath of the globe, and its goal is to widen that influence.

It's a matter of degree.

Edit:

Also, I'm not describing "the majority of Muslims", I'm describing "Islam", which is the topic of this thread. The argument that the majority of Muslims aren't "whatever" is not a valid defense of Islam. It's a fine defense of those people who don't do "whatever", but it doesn't detract from the observation that Islam takes certain unpleasant behaviors to a new height of unpleasantness.
 
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It's pretty astonishing that Jewish people, which can be counted in millions, have won several times more Nobel awards than Muslims, who total at about 1.5 billion right now. I wonder how this can be possible. Probably because of "racism". :rolleyes:
One could also say that Muslims are also responsible for modern mathematics, cartography, spacial awareness, etc...

Without those fundamentals we will be probably in the middle ages thinking that the earth is flat. As far as Jewish go, they are just avid merchants.

And Barack Obama also won the Noble prize, for some reason, which is saying much about the whole " Noble prize value" anyway.
 
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One could also say that Muslims are also responsible for modern mathematics, cartography, spacial awareness, etc...

Without those fundamentals we will be probably in the middle ages thinking that the earth is flat.
Indeed. It was the Muslims who saved most of the scientific and mathematical knowledge that the world had following the fall of the Roman Empire. I believe they constructed the main dome of the Hagia Sophia in Istanbul - a free-standing structure with no internal support - some 900 years before the Christian kingdoms of Europe reacquired that knowledge.
 
The strange thing is, if the IRA were a fundamentalist Catholic organisation, I'm not sure they'd become suicide bombers. In the Republic of Ireland, where such devout Catholicism was widespread until 20-30 years ago, there was a huge stigma against suicide. in the play "Sive" by John B. Keane, set in rural Co. Kerry in the 1950s, when a character committed suicide, her parents were massively concerned with giving her a Christian burial - something not allowed by the RCC for those who've killed themselves at the time.
 
Indeed. It was the Muslims who saved most of the scientific and mathematical knowledge that the world had following the fall of the Roman Empire. I believe they constructed the main dome of the Hagia Sophia in Istanbul - a free-standing structure with no internal support - some 900 years before the Christian kingdoms of Europe reacquired that knowledge.

Bring me up to date with the scientific accomplishments of Muslim countries in the last 5 centuries, and especially in the last hundred years where we have seen extraordinary gains in scientific knowledge.
 
Bring me up to date with the scientific accomplishments of Muslim countries in the last 5 centuries, and especially in the last hundred years where we have seen extraordinary gains in scientific knowledge.

Irrelevant. Without mathematics and such concepts invented in the middle east, none would be possible. I would urge you to find the BBC series from a few years back "Science & Islam" (IIRC the name) presented by Jim Al-Khalili, watch that and then tell anyone that the muslims did not contribute anything.

EDIT: Here is the full series in one 1 together.

 
DK
The strange thing is, if the IRA were a fundamentalist Catholic organisation, I'm not sure they'd become suicide bombers. In the Republic of Ireland, where such devout Catholicism was widespread until 20-30 years ago, there was a huge stigma against suicide. in the play "Sive" by John B. Keane, set in rural Co. Kerry in the 1950s, when a character committed suicide, her parents were massively concerned with giving her a Christian burial - something not allowed by the RCC for those who've killed themselves at the time.
The exact same thing is true of Islam.

Which is why its described as Martyrdom rather than suicide (the term suicide bomber is used only by western media), they take the Abrahamic view of being a martyr and modify it to a degree well past its original meaning.


My point is that it's a matter of degree. All religions, or most of them, use reprehensible techniques on people. Yes, the IRA may have considered suicide bombing. To actually do it en masse requires something that they did not have.

The IRA was/is also a localized phenomenon, and not entirely based on religion. The LRA is also local, and different to the IRA.

Islam is not local. Its extremism stretches from North and West Africa to Aceh. Its extremism has a certain consistency about it across a wide swath of the globe, and its goal is to widen that influence.

It's a matter of degree.
The IRA were active in any place that contained British troops or were British territories, as such attacks took place across Europe and IRA cells were active in terms of fund raising and training in the US, Canada, Australia, Libya and South America.

You also seem quite happy to lump all Islamic based terrorism into one pot, but insist on breaking down Christian terrorism into each of the single groups. In reality Islamic groups are just as disparate as the Christian ones.


Edit:

Also, I'm not describing "the majority of Muslims", I'm describing "Islam", which is the topic of this thread. The argument that the majority of Muslims aren't "whatever" is not a valid defense of Islam. It's a fine defense of those people who don't do "whatever", but it doesn't detract from the observation that Islam takes certain unpleasant behaviors to a new height of unpleasantness.

And?

Apply the same critical lens to Christianity (in particular the OT) and you will find the exact same mix of justification of the abhorrent, none of which should be a big surprise given that they share a common root.
 
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The exact same thing is true of Islam.

Which is why its described as Martyrdom rather than suicide (the term suicide bomber is used only by western media), they take the Abrahamic view of being a martyr and modify it to a degree well past its original meaning.



The IRA were active in any place that contained British troops or were British territories, as such attacks took place across Europe and IRA cells were active in terms of fund raising and training in the US, Canada, Lybia and South America.

You also seem quite happy to lump all Islamic based terrorism into one pot, but insist on braking down Christian terrorism into each of the single groups. In reality Islamic groups are just as disparate as the Christian ones.




And?

Apply the same critical lens to Christianity (in particular the OT) and you will find the exact same mix of justification of the abhorrent, none of which should be a big surprise given that they share a common root.

I think you missed my point, at least partially.

I'm making the case that Islam differs from other religions in the degree to which it successfully encourages anti-social behavior.

You seem to partially understand where I'm going when you said, "they take the Abrahamic view of being a martyr and modify it to a degree well past its original meaning." My emphasis.

I'm not talking just about "Islamic based terrorism". It's all the other behaviors as well, such as Sharia law which is spreading across the globe. (2014 examples in Brunei and Aceh)

That's not to say I condone Christianist bad behavior. However, with the obvious exception of Bush's Crusade, the Christianists are not so globally in the face of humanity. That said, finding a way to purge Christianity retrospectively would be good for humanity. Along with most of the predecessor cults.
 
I'm not talking just about "Islamic based terrorism". It's all the other behaviors as well, such as Sharia law which is spreading across the globe. (2014 examples in Brunei and Aceh)
For the bolded part, I'd like to add the Muslim-dominated areas in Europe, where people's attitudes in general are horrifying even without a Sharia law spicing things up. A religion that is compatible with democracy doesn't need its followers creating "Muslim Patrols".
 
I think you missed my point, at least partially.

I'm making the case that Islam differs from other religions in the degree to which it successfully encourages anti-social behavior.

You seem to partially understand where I'm going when you said, "they take the Abrahamic view of being a martyr and modify it to a degree well past its original meaning." My emphasis.

I'm not talking just about "Islamic based terrorism". It's all the other behaviors as well, such as Sharia law which is spreading across the globe. (2014 examples in Brunei and Aceh)

That's not to say I condone Christianist bad behavior. However, with the obvious exception of Bush's Crusade, the Christianists are not so globally in the face of humanity. That said, finding a way to purge Christianity retrospectively would be good for humanity. Along with most of the predecessor cults.
Two questions in that regard.

At what point does a religion stop being its core when people change its meaning?

Are you not aware of the Christian fundamentalists who have been very successful at bringing homophobic laws into place in SS Africa? I only ask as that would certainly seem to be a globe spanning endeavor.


For the bolded part, I'd like to add the Muslim-dominated areas in Europe, where people's attitudes in general are horrifying even without a Sharia law spicing things up. A religion that is compatible with democracy doesn't need its followers creating "Muslim Patrols".

Good job no Christian group would do such a thing.

Oh wait.........

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/45...RMOURED-CAR-in-Muslim-street-giving-out-booze
 
A religion that is compatible with democracy doesn't need its followers creating "Muslim Patrols".
Democracy and organized religion may not really be compatible.

Democracy is all about the the rights of individuals to spasmodically do peculiar, risky, even freakish things.

Religion is all about a community of like-minded people living for generations in boring sobriety and prudence.
 
Bring me up to date with the scientific accomplishments of Muslim countries in the last 5 centuries, and especially in the last hundred years where we have seen extraordinary gains in scientific knowledge.
When did recent scientific discovery become the measure by which we judge the worthiness of a society?
 
Good job no Christian group would do such a thing.

Oh wait.........

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/45...RMOURED-CAR-in-Muslim-street-giving-out-booze
1. What's a "Muslim street"?

2. "They said they were reacting to the so-called “Muslim Patrols” who were convicted in December for threatening non-Muslims in the area." Not the most PC way to react to it, but not particularly violent either.

3. "The Muslim Patrols groups have been defended by controversial Islamic preacher Anjem Choudary, the former leader of the banned Al Muhajiroun group." This explains a lot. Why Choudary hadn't been deported is beyond me. That cancer needs to permanently leave before things spice up further. Unfortunately his existence is the result of liberal tolerance of everything and everyone in the world that enters British soil. 👎

4. Oh dear, I completely forgot the most important part. The headline says "racist". I say "facepalm".
 
Irrelevant. Without mathematics and such concepts invented in the middle east, none would be possible. I would urge you to find the BBC series from a few years back "Science & Islam" (IIRC the name) presented by Jim Al-Khalili, watch that and then tell anyone that the muslims did not contribute anything.

EDIT: Here is the full series in one 1 together.

I said, "Bring me up to date with the scientific accomplishments of Muslim countries in the last 5 centuries, and especially in the last hundred years where we have seen extraordinary gains in scientific knowledge."

It is not irrelevant that Muslim countries stopped contributing to science centuries ago.

I did not say that Muslims did not contribute anything.

The irony in the documentary you posted is that Jim Al-Khalili abandoned the hotbed of the most recent Muslim scientific achievements in his passion for scientific achievement. He did not go to another Muslim country, he joined the infidels.

When did recent scientific discovery become the measure by which we judge the worthiness of a society?

When did non-recent scientific discovery become the measure by which we judge the worthiness of a society?
 
1. What's a "Muslim street"?
What's a Christian street?

It's simply a way of describing a street in an are of predominatntly Muslim residents, a point I think you know well.




2. "They said they were reacting to the so-called “Muslim Patrols” who were convicted in December for threatening non-Muslims in the area." Not the most PC way to react to it, but not particularly violent either.
And was not needed given that all three members of the Muslim patrol were arrested, tried and sentenced long before this occurred.

However please feel free to continue defending a far right group of Christian extremist.


3. "The Muslim Patrols groups have been defended by controversial Islamic preacher Anjem Choudary, the former leader of the banned Al Muhajiroun group." This explains a lot. Why Choudary hadn't been deported is beyond me. That cancer needs to permanently leave before things spice up further. Unfortunately his existence is the result of liberal tolerance of everything and everyone in the world that enters British soil. 👎
He British born, so we deport him to? Oh that's right Britain. He's also currently on bail following further charges. As such the legal system seems to be functioning as it should.


4. Oh dear, I completely forgot the most important part. The headline says "racist". I say "facepalm".
Big whooop, given that Britain First are most definitely racists with roots in the BNP and National Front.
 
And was not needed given that all three members of the Muslim patrol were arrested, tried and sentenced long before this occurred.

However please feel free to continue defending a far right group of Christian extremist.
The original Muslim Patrol may be gone, but how can you be sure the rest of the Muslims haven't been harassing the rest of the residents since then? This is more than a random 3 man patrol, it's about the whole community's attitudes.


He British born, so we deport him to? Oh that's right Britain. He's also currently on bail following further charges. As such the legal system seems to be functioning as it should.
Does Britain own any uninhabitated islands? That's where he should go, if the court seriously doesn't have the capability to throw him into prison. On the second note, prison might be a bad idea, because he's still able to continue his preaching from inside. Hell, he could easily start preaching to other Muslim inmates, who are grossly overrepresented in British prisons, I wonder why that is. :rolleyes:

Oh, he's on bail? In other words, free as a bird. Should that make taxpayers feel safe?
 
The original Muslim Patrol may be gone, but how can you be sure the rest of the Muslims haven't been harassing the rest of the residents since then? This is more than a random 3 man patrol, it's about the whole community's attitudes.
Quiet simply because the Daily Mail would have it splashed across the front page one millisecond after it happened.

Because the local communities (both Muslim and non-Mulsim) condemned them.

Because I regularly travel and shop in local Muslim areas and it doesn't happen. The main Muslim community I live in has an Irish pub slap bang in the middle of it, number of problems between these two groups = ZERO

It is simply not a problem beyond a single group blown out of all proportion, the UK has had more Christian Street patrols by fundamentalists Christians than it has by Muslim street patrols.


Does Britain own any uninhabitated islands? That's where he should go, if the court seriously doesn't have the capability to throw him into prison. On the second note, prison might be a bad idea, because he's still able to continue his preaching from inside. Hell, he could easily start preaching to other Muslim inmates, who are grossly overrepresented in British prisons, I wonder why that is. :rolleyes:

Oh, he's on bail? In other words, free as a bird. Should that make taxpayers feel safe?
Glad to see that you feel due process should be abandoned based on nothing but religious affiliation.
 
Quiet simply because the Daily Mail would have it splashed across the front page one millisecond after it happened.

Because the local communities (both Muslim and non-Mulsim) condemned them.

Because I regularly travel and shop in local Muslim areas and it doesn't happen. The main Muslim community I live in has an Irish pub slap bang in the middle of it, number of problems between these two groups = ZERO

It is simply not a problem beyond a single group blown out of all proportion, the UK has had more Christian Street patrols by fundamentalists Christians than it has by Muslim street patrols.
Good for you then. You may have been lucky to miss the worst of the bunch, though I'm sure that things would be different if you lived in a place like Luton whose remaining good citizens might have a drastically different story to tell about these guys than you.

Glad to see that you feel due process should be abandoned based on nothing but religious affiliation.
You don't seriously think I'm saying this because of religious affiliation? This is about a guy who poses a threat to national security with his open willingness to use violence to make sure the country bows down in front of his crappy laws that no native Briton with a brain in their head would ever accept. In fact, digging deeper into his viewpoints, he doesn't belong in a prison, but a good old-fashioned madhouse.
 
Good for you then. You may have been lucky to miss the worst of the bunch, though I'm sure that things would be different if you lived in a place like Luton whose remaining good citizens might have a drastically different story to tell about these guys than you.
Ohh look who it is again.

It's Choudary.

Can you seriously not see that this is about as representative of the UK Muslim population as Britain First are of the UK Christian population?

A point even the right wing press in the UK hold...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/rel...Choudary-represent-the-Muslim-population.html

.. oh and just to let you know I live four miles from the 'planned' demo in that piece. It never happened, so it would seem that your 'poster-boy' for Islam running rampant in the UK couldn't manage a protest in a tiny market town. Shortly after which the group in that piece was banned under the Terrorism Act 2000.


You don't seriously think I'm saying this because of religious affiliation? This is about a guy who poses a threat to national security with his open willingness to use violence to make sure the country bows down in front of his crappy laws that no native Briton with a brain in their head would ever accept. In fact, digging deeper into his viewpoints, he doesn't belong in a prison, but a good old-fashioned madhouse.
Then why are you suggesting that due process be ignored?

Personally I'm quite glad that we don't simply imprison people without due process simply for a viewpoint (regardless of what it is), and he has been singularly ineffective at "making sure the country bows down in front of his crappy laws".

He's an idiot, with idiotic views, neither of which is illegal (nor should they be) and when he has stepped over the line in that regard he has been arrested and charged.
 
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Ohh look who it is again.

It's Choudary.

Can you seriously not see that this is about as representative of the UK Muslim population as Britain First are of the UK Christian population?




Then why are you suggesting that due process be ignored?

Personally I'm quite glad that we don't simply imprison people without due process simply for a viewpoint (regardless of what it is), and he has been singularly ineffective at "making sure the country bows down in front of his crappy laws".

He's an idiot, with idiotic views, neither of which is illegal (nor should they be) and when he has stepped over the line in that regard he has been arrested and charged.

@Carbonox is in all honesty getting more and more towards being worse then some of the people he lays claims against. Choudary is arrested, and as Scaff says, being dealt with by the legal system and it is actually working with him.

As usual Carb, you spend the time referring to all muslims as extremists, and believing everybody should be deported or shot on sight. Considering you do not even live in the UK, how would you know? You get these crackpots everywhere. There are idiots in every town, every place! Yet as usual you seem to be interested in deporting not just the few who need it (Choudary) but everybody.
 
Indeed. It was the Muslims who saved most of the scientific and mathematical knowledge that the world had following the fall of the Roman Empire. I believe they constructed the main dome of the Hagia Sophia in Istanbul - a free-standing structure with no internal support - some 900 years before the Christian kingdoms of Europe reacquired that knowledge.

Bring me up to date with the scientific accomplishments of Muslim countries in the last 5 centuries, and especially in the last hundred years where we have seen extraordinary gains in scientific knowledge."

When did recent scientific discovery become the measure by which we judge the worthiness of a society?

When did non-recent scientific discovery become the measure by which we judge the worthiness of a society?

When did refusing to give a straight answer to a question become an acceptable way of refuting a valid point?

It was intended as a straight answer in the sequential context of the conversation, harking back to the point you made in admiration of past Muslim achievements.
 
Heres my view

Follow what you believe in and don't make me follow a religion I don't want to
 
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