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There's nothing wrong with double- and triple-postion, provided that you are moving the debate forward. And so long as you only do it every now and again, rather than constantly.
Islam - What's your view on it?
- Thread starter SalmanBH
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BobK
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- GBO-Possum
Claiming that I would attack someone who wears a hijab is defamatory, and 100% incorrect.
I look forward to your public apology.
Unlike many religious people, I respect females of all species.
Thank you to @BobK for tagging me, otherwise I might have missed this posting. In future, if you wish to defame me, please alert me to your lies.
Scaff
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He didn't say that.
He said someone with attitudes like yours did, that's quite a different thing. Now you can feel free to debate and discuss how accurate his claim of similarity is, but he didn't say you would and he didn't imply you would.
I however wasn't aware that those who wear different religious garb were a separate species? I hope that's a typo.
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- GBO-Possum
No one should be afraid of me for my attitude towards a hijab. I have never posted anything to the best of my knowledge which would remotely imply that hijab-wearers should fear going outdoors because of my attitudes, or for fear of people with attitudes smilar to mine.
I used the word "species" very carefully. Originally I was going to say that I respect female humans. Then I realized that I should make it clear that my respect is not limited to humans. Again, unlike many religious people, I don't think of myself as being different to animals in that self-centric concept of "soul".
As for anyone thinking that I might use to word "species" to describe a group of disparate people who happen to wear a particular headpiece, I find that totally bizarre in the extreme.
If you read my posts (carefully), you should see that I tend to take a fair amount of care in my choice of vocabulary, grammar and punctuation.
EDIT:-
Just in case anyone may have reached the conclusion that we humans can change species by donning particular headgear, I caution you that it's not at all likely. I'm not saying it's impossible, however the evidence is compelling. Despite countless billions of doffings and donnings, as far as I know, no human has been observed changing into another species. If I were you, I wouldn't waste much time trying.
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Scaff
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Its a conversation about a religion, its relationship to other religions and those who follow it, and in this particular area of that conversation the garb of women.
As such its not exactly odd to assume that female would relate to humans by default, as such throwing in the word species is worth a question, given that other species of animal have zero context in regard to wearing religious garb.
- 33,155
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Muslims frequently distance themselves from ISIL, claiming that it is an extreme interpretation of their faith and not representative of what they believe. Despite this, people such as yourself and Carbonox have described ISIL as "the truest form of Islam" and repeatedly characterised it as barbaric or primitive.
Surely, then, you must recognise that an extreme interpretation of your own opinion is possible, and that that extreme interpretation is what inspires people to intimidate Muslims to the point where women feel compelled to give up the hijab for their own safety.
Now, you have profusely denied that the actions of those few people are in any way representative of your opinions, but where have I heard that before? That's right - it's the same thing the wider Muslim community has said about ISIL. So why, then, is it okay for you to tarnish Islam as a whole based on the actions of a few, but distance yourself from the suggestion that the actions of a few are representative of your opinion? It's blatant hypocrisy. You're more than willing to dish it out, but you can't take it when it's your turn.
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- GBO-Possum
I didn't tarnish Islam. That was done by the Qu'ran.
- 44,184
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- Furinkazen_54
Talk about a cheap get-out. Islam wouldn't exist without the Quran, rendering your statement ineffective.
Scaff
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I take it you have read it?
Ibonibo
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Again - it's this kind of bigotry and prejudice that is doing more harm than good.
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- Spurgy777
So first you could be racist to Muslims, now you can be a bigot towards a book, fascinating!
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When you use that book as representative of an entire religion to the point where they're synonymous, yes. The fact that people have to rely on semantics to justify their attitudes shows just how specious their arguments are.
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- Spurgy777
Still not seeing any bigotry, or even how @GBO Possum said that the Quran was, or wasn't representative of the whole of Islam.
Could be worse, they could be using words like "racist" and "bigot" completely out of context to justify their position.
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An unfair dislike of people based on what their religious text says is bigotry. Especially when said people see fit to judge practitioners of that faith despite never having had so much as a conversation with someone of that faith.
You can try and turn my arguments back on me and convince yourself that you're clever, but you haven't addressed the underlying issue - that some people feel that they are entitled to pass judgement on something that they clearly don't understand and show no desire to educate themselves about.
You can try and turn my arguments back on me and convince yourself that you're clever, but you haven't addressed the underlying issue - that some people feel that they are entitled to pass judgement on something that they clearly don't understand and show no desire to educate themselves about.
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- Spurgy777
As far as I'm aware, Possum has only shown a dislike of the religion, and not the people who follow that religion, therefore calling him a racist bigot who's views make people fear for their safety is completely unwarranted.
As for this underlying issue you talk about, there's only one person in this thread who I would agree seems to fit that description (to an extent), and I don't feel the need to address their posts in this thread.
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Tell that to the people who are afraid for their safety.
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- Spurgy777
That's my point, there should be no need to, because, or at least I'd hope, they aren't afraid of people who don't like Islam, they're afraid of people who don't like Muslims and the way they dress. If they are afraid of people with similar views to Possum, who as far as I can tell only dislikes Islam, and not Muslims or the way some of them dress, then they need to educate themselves properly, or try to overcome their irrational fear.
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That sounds like victim blaming to me.
- 5,619
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- Spurgy777
Well if someone disliking your religion makes you a victim of something, then I suppose, but it doesn't because that would be ridiculous.
- 3,871
- Chad
- kennylmao
Like Geert Wilders* and almost anybody who has ever criticize Islam?
oh wait, wrong party.
*he may be a right wing politician but I've read and watched what he had to say, and in my opinion, he has some sound arguments. Nothing outlandishly racist or marginalizing towards minorities, just facts.
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- 3,871
- Chad
- kennylmao
Really? Maybe I missed some things. I thought the things he has said were completely logical and reasonable:
- Immigrants must adapt and assimilate to the culture and values of the country they live in. (Duh)
- Islam is a political ideology disguised as a religion. (Expansion of the Caliphate & the implementation of Sharia)
- The Koran is barbaric and filled with violence that has no place in modern society. (so does the Bible though inherently less)
- The Koran needs to be revised and Islam needs reforms to have any credibility in the 21st century. (The important part)
He even proposed a solution. Problem is, the Koran can't be revised as it's the irrefutable word of Allah. The final revelation. Now ultimately, it's up to the Muslims to decide on it, but then there are those who threaten anyone, including fellow Muslims, for questioning Islam. Leftist politicians who shout racism doesn't help either.
*Predicted counter argument for point No. 2: "But those are fundamentalists, most Muslims don't want that." But research shows otherwise.
Even when placed in a modern, secular society does Islamic fundamentalism still fester among Muslims. Doesn't that at least cancel out the possibility that it has anything to do with race (here would be a right place to used the term racist), culture and that Islam and the Koran is the core problem?
Edit: Oh wait, the reform part was proposed by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, but Geert basically said something similar right at the end of this article.
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- 44,184
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- Furinkazen_54
RIP Alan Henning. In response to the amounts of videos posted by certain members which incline that no one speaks out about IS activities:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/05/isis-murder-alan-henning-british-muslim-community
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/05/isis-murder-alan-henning-british-muslim-community
- 2,988
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- GBO-Possum
Since the Quran is essentially the source of Islam, and provides the tarnish, my statement is quite effective.
Yes. I have a Quran in my home, and an electronic version on my Kindle.
If you bother to actually read the Quran, you'll find it to be full of bigotry and prejudice.
If, by "some people", you include me, then let me assure you of a few facts.
I have had many conversations with Muslims, including one today with a Muslim family who were visiting as tourists. I saw them taking photographs of each other and offered to help them out by using their camera to take a photo of them all. They were grateful that I initiated this offer and were pleased with the results. Or they were just being polite!
I have worked with Muslims, and have invited Muslims into my home.
I have, as a tourist in a Muslim country, been threatened by Muslims, and have seen my wife and daughters beside me threatened. I came to understand that the threats were based on their dislike of our Western dress code. This was in a tourist area which was struggling to survive and continues this struggle to this day. Surprise!
Furthermore, I have taken the trouble to educate myself about Islam. I have a copy of the Quran, a gift from a Muslim. I have read some, but not all of it. I have the Quran on my Kindle for reference.
This is the classic role-reversal argument.........
....... and here it becomes full blown.
If you read the Quran, take note of the passages which deal with the Dhimmi, and deal with the "People of the Book". Then come back and tell me that the Quran doesn't teach bigotry and prejudice. Also, please observe the degree of violence committed by a large number of Muslims in the names of Allah and the Prophet. Not a majority, just a large number of very vocal and violent people. It's not just me who says they got these notions from Islam, they say it themselves.
Scaff
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OK lets take a look at these point by point
1. Must adapt and assimilate?
Why does this have to be a one way street? Are you saying that they have to fully forgo every part of the source culture and only take the new culture on board?
France is trying something just like that right now, its failing spectacularly.
I also trust you would want this applied universally? As I know of a good size group in Spain that utterly refuse to fully integrate, don't learn Spanish, have taken over whole areas along parts of the coast and even gained effective control f council bodies, forcing out locals in the process. See if you can figure out who they are.
2. All religions are political ideologies as well as religions! Are you honestly going to try and claim that the Vatican isn't and that Catholicism doesn't get involved in politics? An entire country a short way across the water from me is sat around calling you wrong on that one (and its not alone).
3. All the Abrahamic texts are barbaric and filled with violence, the vast majority of all religious tetxts are and every single one of them has and is being used as a justification for violence.
4. Ditto the above, do you wish to seriously claim that the Bible isn't (as just one example) as I can show you people who are members here who believe that genocide is totally justifiable if God orders it.
The point you are missing is that these points are either nonsense (point 1 - I've been in a mu;ti-cultural relationship for 20 years - forcing change doesn't work and needs both parties to work).
The other three all can apply to every religion on Earth, so targeting one while ignoring the others is going to be so ineffective as to be counterproductive.
Right wing politicians who shout 'change or leave' (and on our terms only) don't help either.
One group enables exteremist and the other actually helps breed them.
And I can show you research that says the exact opposite.
The great thing with surveys is once you understand them you can pretty much set the results as you like, just ask the question in the right way.
I've not used the term race at all, whatever term you want to use (I seriously don't care), you have a group that is being targeted based on the actions of the few while other groups that do the same are being ignored.
Here's an interesting thing to do. Take the percentages from you survey and uses they to extract actual number of people who hold these views (as in a headcount), then come back and let me know if we have more Christians or Muslims potentially about to cause trouble in Europe!
And should it not be a 'meeting of minds' with all parties involved and showing equal respect for the other it will not work.
You are one of the few on here.
So you will know that its just as contradictory and a potential tool for justification of violence as almost every religious text.
It at times states that Christians be protected and then say kill all unbelievers (and parallels can be found in the bible and), it says you should kill and then say kill unbelievers. However both generally fall into a shadow when you look at the Torah, which has most of the OT lunicy and little of the (contradictory) moderation.
Ditto every religious text I have ever read.
Which country?
I've traveled, lived and worked in the region since 1991 and found (aside from Saudi - which has very serious issues indeed) it to be not much different to any other place in this regard.
Ditto every other idiot who uses religion as a justification for violence, bigotry and prejudice.
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- GBO-Possum
If the Quran is no more provocative of violence against "the other" than any other religious text, and it's not Islam which provokes violence, then how do you explain:-
The unparalleled (in any other religion) "Danish Cartoons" reaction in which Muslims went on rampages around the world resulting in the deaths of about 200 people? Is this "normal" behavior, or is it just that the perpetrators were all "victims"?
The virtual "ownership" of Suicide Bombing by Muslims? Coincidence?
The number of violent acts committed by Muslims in non-Muslim countries in the name of Islam. Think New York, the Pentagon, Pensylvania, Brussels, London, Boston, Madrid, Toulouse, Amsterdam...... The perpetrators had all been exposed to Western civilization and education. Was this what drove them to violent religious fanaticism?
In which case why don't we see a proportional number of atheists doing the same thing around the world in response, say, to atheism being a capital crime in many countries around the world? (An exercise for the reader. Identify these countries, for each country identify the dominant religion and write it down. When this is complete, post your list of these religions. Hint: it's a very, VERY short list of religions.)
The article linked below includes these words -
Wherever I go, armed policemen go with me to protect me against Islamic groups who have vowed to assassinate me because they disagree with my opinion that Islam is not a religion of peace.
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4733/stop-denying-the-obvious-islam-is-a-problem
Do Muslims behave they way they do as reported in the link above because they are victims? Is it just coincidence? If it's not the Quran nor the teachings of Islam, then what's the cause?
And please don't say "but it's not every Muslim". That misinterpretation is getting to be a little overused.
EDIT:-
Maybe we should treat the above violences with the same attitude used to Female Genital Mutilation, another practice "owned" by Muslims. Let's just put them all down to "rich cultural differences". I'm kidding.
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