Islam - What's your view on it?

[KSaiyu]

Is there a way to stop radical Islam?

Maybe, hard as it is to admit, we have to accept that it's here to stay as long as we have a free society. I imagine it's the same as America "accepts" high rates of gun crime with the freedom to carry (or perhaps more accurately and definitely more controversially, the freedom of people of any race/religion/etc to carry). It's a grown up decision that would never be popular politically since it essentially admits defeat, but is there logically a way to stop one without giving up the other.

 

[Scaff]

Warning Muslim satire incoming (as many are not aware it exists):

New ‘Union Jack Mosque hats’proposed to make Muslims look more British
Muslims are being asked to don new ‘Union Jack Mosque hats’ in a bid to make themselves look more British.

The new proposal in a leaked Government memo comes on the back of a new drive to instil a new level of ‘Britishness’ into the Muslim community.

The mosque hat, paid for by the taxpayer would have the union jack design on top of it and Muslims would be forced to wear them to prayers.

One anti-terrorism think tank said the idea had a lot of mileage, “I think it is a fantastic proposal as it will make people look and feel more British.

“We think this is the real problem here...Muslims simply do not look British enough.”

The memo goes on to say the mosque hats would come in several designs: Extremist, Radical, Mainstream and Sell Out.

Source: http://www.asianimage.co.uk/columni...__proposed_to_make_Muslims_look_more_British/
More Here: http://www.asianimage.co.uk/author/profile/42438/

 

[Joel]

But do they really think it's appropriate to joke about this?!?!

I dunno, this idea that immigrants need to be "more" British/French/German/whatever is really at odds with the way I view a multicultural society. Perhaps it's a difference with the age of our countries, Canada isn't even 150 years old yet, while British, French, and German societies go back many generations and are very powerful cultures.

If someone told an immigrant to "be more Canadian" I honestly don't know what that would mean. Do all the muslims in Canada need to start playing hockey, wearing plaid, and drinking crappy Tim Hortons' coffee before they're real citizens? Do British muslims need to eat bangers and mash and complain about the rain before they're "real" citizens? Do French muslims need to skip showers and try all the boulangeries to find the best baguette?

All that matters to me is that "they" follow the law and aren't a drain on welfare systems. And that's the same no matter who "they" are.

 

[Johnnypenso]

But do they really think it's appropriate to joke about this?!?!

I dunno, this idea that immigrants need to be "more" British/French/German/whatever is really at odds with the way I view a multicultural society. Perhaps it's a difference with the age of our countries, Canada isn't even 150 years old yet, while British, French, and German societies go back many generations and are very powerful cultures.

If someone told an immigrant to "be more Canadian" I honestly don't know what that would mean. Do all the muslims in Canada need to start playing hockey, wearing plaid, and drinking crappy Tim Hortons' coffee before they're real citizens? Do British muslims need to eat bangers and mash and complain about the rain before they're "real" citizens? Do French muslims need to skip showers and try all the boulangeries to find the best baguette?

All that matters to me is that "they" follow the law and aren't a drain on welfare systems. And that's the same no matter who "they" are.

I find this very offensive. Tim Horton's new dark roast is actually decent coffee.

 

[Joel]

I find this very offensive. Tim Horton's new dark roast is actually decent coffee.

I'll try it when I'm back in Canuckistan, they were just releasing it when I was leaving in the summer. As long as it's not roasted dish liquid it's probably an improvement

 

[TRLWNC7396]

Islam is one of the most completely misunderstood religions. It is a religion of peace. If you read the Kuran (and no, I haven't) one of the biggest things it promotes is peace.

The thing is, the person who truly brought it into existence (Mohamed) forced others to accept it by death. So, his followers who truly wanted to be like him have followed the same pattern.

Then, there are the tribes and how little they care for each other or outside influences.

Then, there are those who forced tribes together to destabilize the middle east.

So, a few of the middle east people said, basically, "We have to throw everyone out and prove we are just for us!", and have been trying to destroy anyone who isn't them.

This has become an international problem

But it doesn't change the fact that most of the people who follow and believe in Islam are peaceful. It's just that the peaceful majority are getting overrun.

Which is an age-old and very common problem. Look at China, Russia, and other dictators..... It's happening again.

 

[Omnis]

Islam is one of the most completely misunderstood religions. It is a religion of peace. If you read the Kuran (and no, I haven't) one of the biggest things it promotes is peace.

The thing is, the person who truly brought it into existence (Mohamed) forced others to accept it by death.

Therefore, it cannot be a religion of peace. This is a formal logical fallacy.

It would be more accurate to say that Islam is a religion of repression.

 

[Dennisch]

a religion of peace.

There's no such thing.

 

[ClydeYellow]

Therefore, it [Islam] cannot be a religion of peace. This is a formal logical fallacy.

Not necessarily. One doesn't always have to (in this case, quite literaly) practice what he preaches.

I'd also like to argue that the myth of the spread "by the sword" of Islam is just that, a myth (altough arguably all subjects of a Caliphate, regardless of their religion, were submitting to the will of Allah by submitting to the temporal authority of the Caliph and therefore were, by definition, muslims). Armed evangelism was far more of a christian thing - the Caliphs of the VIII and IX centuries were happy to just ammass land and then let their non-muslim subjects convert to Islam or pay a (quite affordable) tax, while Christianity launched a succession of crusades which were legitimized by the presence of such a large mass of heathens to convert.

[To be more specific, Islamic law divided the people of the dhimma at the end of the X centuy in people of the Book - that is, christians and jews - and people of the Covenant, who didn't follow an Abrahamic religion, but with whom compacts of protection were made. In what's perhaps one of the first examples in history of multiculturalism, the dhimma were afforded some measure of self-government, and weren't subject to many restrictions of the sharia. They were also exempt from specific duties assigned to muslims, and from the zakat tax; they had to pay another tax, the jizya, which however wasn't much heavier than the aforementioned zakat. They were otherwise equal under the law]

There's no such thing [as a religion of peace].

Oh, really?

 

[Omnis]

Any religion that has a tax also cannot be a religion of peace.

 

[Dotini]

Oh, really?

http://www.peacefulsocieties.org/Society/Amish.html

All these peaceful societies must be stamped out before their dangerous ideas can spread!

 

[Johnnypenso]

I tried to argue with a Mennonite once. He gave me maple syrup instead.

 

[TRLWNC7396]

The beliefs are to promote peace. That is why there is a peaceful majority.

It's the extremists who rule with oppression and war who aren't really following their religion who create the lack of peace.

And, yes, I fully realize that this is a catch-22....

 

[Spurgy 777]

The beliefs are to promote peace. That is why there is a peaceful majority.

Just because the majority are peaceful, doesn't mean the religion is, it just means the majority have some grip on reality and aren't psychotic.

 

[ClydeYellow]

Any religion that has a tax also cannot be a religion of peace.

And now we're taking things into a whole different level. Can any religion that holds eschatological beliefs in which all will be judged, some will be saved, and some will be condemned, be a religion of peace? I don't think so. But most people mean "peaceful cohexistence" when they talk about "peace" in this specific context. It was not my intention to examine Islam from a philosophical standpoint, in which case, it is clearly not a peaceful religion, just as pretty much all others.

(Also, taxes were levied by temporal authorities legitimized by the Islamic faith, and are not expressely demanded by the Quran - however, the zakat is one of the tenents of Islam, therefore a muslim living in a country that doesn't exact a zakat tax should give alms - basically the whole concept of zakat formalizes the christian principle of charity. It is not much of a "must give"; rather a "should give"... "Or else you may burn in hell".)

Just because the majority are peaceful, doesn't mean the religion is, it just means the majority have some grip on reality and aren't psychotic.

Or, it means that in the hands of a psychotic the Quran is a tool to incite hatred and violence; but then, so is almost any religion, be it theistic, or political.
Many muslims are fervently religious (to the point that you wouldn't say they have some grip on reality, devolving most of their time and energies to obtaining salvation) and yet you don't see them picking up an AK and shooting up the office of a satirical magazine because it published images of Muhammad that may be offensive.

 

[Omnis]

The central theme of christianity is love and forgiveness. The latter seems to be missing from Islam in its radical or even conservative state.

Can any religion that holds eschatological beliefs in which all will be judged, some will be saved, and some will be condemned, be a religion of peace?

Sure it can. That is because christianity seeks peace from within each person's soul. As CS Lewis said, hell is locked from the inside. You're not thrown into it by some external will. If God's word is peace, reason, love, then we can reasonably hope that we will be saved if we live virtuously as good people. This is why we call Christ the Lord.

Islam, for all its good, has the makings to be used for evil due to its voluntaristic strain. It is a religious experience framed by repression and obedience rather than repentance and mercy.

 

[Famine]

Islam, for all its good, has the makings to be used for evil due to its voluntaristic strain. It is a religious experience framed by repression and obedience rather than repentance and mercy.

Not in any way like Catholicism.

 

[Omnis]

Not in any way like Catholicism.

No doubt, but I think you can say that the church has left its iniquities in the past. Why can't Islam? Maybe because the radical muslims are the islamic equivalent of Pastor Bubba leading his fellow Klansmen in prayer. Though, in my opinion, there's something more systemically wrong that we're talking about hundreds of millions of people that have such troubling world views. That's an order of magnitude greater cause for concern than all Rick Santorum voters put together, despite a similar religious/customary divergence (fundamentalism).

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Meanwhile, Clint Eastwood's American Sniper has not been received well by Icivil liberties groups, with claims that it has led to an increase in threats against Muslims:

http://m.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-30972690

The film has been nominated for six Oscars, including Best Picture, but Birdman and Boyhood are tipped as favourites. I'm surprised it got nominated for Best Picture, Best Director and Best Actor (plus a few technical nominations) given its content and the current political situation in the Middle East.

 

[mustafur]

Meanwhile, Clint Eastwood's American Sniper has not been received well by Icivil liberties groups, with claims that it has led to an increase in threats against Muslims:

http://m.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-30972690

The film has been nominated for six Oscars, including Best Picture, but Birdman and Boyhood are tipped as favourites. I'm surprised it got nominated for Best Picture, Best Director and Best Actor (plus a few technical nominations) given its content and the current political situation in the Middle East.

I think educating ignorant people is more important then restricting things we can see.

Nothing wrong with the Movie.

 

[DK]

No doubt, but I think you can say that the church has left its iniquities in the past. Why can't Islam? Maybe because the radical muslims are the islamic equivalent of Pastor Bubba leading his fellow Klansmen in prayer. Though, in my opinion, there's something more systemically wrong that we're talking about hundreds of millions of people that have such troubling world views. That's an order of magnitude greater cause for concern than all Rick Santorum voters put together, despite a similar religious/customary divergence (fundamentalism).

The Irish branch of the RCC only "left its iniquities in the past" when its iron grip on my country rusted away.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I think educating ignorant people is more important then restricting things we can see.

Spoken like someone who hasn't seen the film.

It's not a question of "educating ignorant people" or censorship. The film is supposed to be a character study of what would motivate a man to keep going back to an environment that is so obviously the worst place for him to be given the strain that it places on both him and his family. What it actually presents is a man who plays God, deciding the fate of people whom he views as savages, as a genuine American hero. And that's where the complaints are coming from.

 

[KSaiyu]

Spoken like someone who hasn't seen the film.

It's not a question of "educating ignorant people" or censorship. The film is supposed to be a character study of what would motivate a man to keep going back to an environment that is so obviously the worst place for him to be given the strain that it places on both him and his family. What it actually presents is a man who plays God, deciding the fate of people whom he views as savages, as a genuine American hero. And that's where the complaints are coming from.

The guy did his job and was the best at it. It's a simple film with a simple message.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The guy did his job and was the best at it. It's a simple film with a simple message.

On the most superficial level, yes. And if that's where it ended, it's extremely difficult to justify its nominations for Best Picture, Best Director and Best Actor, considering that Birdman also got nominated for all three and Interstellar missed out.

 

[mustafur]

Spoken like someone who hasn't seen the film.

But I have.

Spoken like someone who hasn't seen the film.

It's not a question of "educating ignorant people" or censorship. The film is supposed to be a character study of what would motivate a man to keep going back to an environment that is so obviously the worst place for him to be given the strain that it places on both him and his family. What it actually presents is a man who plays God, deciding the fate of people whom he views as savages, as a genuine American hero. And that's where the complaints are coming from.

Maybe on some, but clearly not all atleast on what is portrayed in the movie.

 

[KSaiyu]

It serves it's purpose, as an introduction to the complex characters who excel in their disciplines mushed up for the masses. Cooper deserves an award, as for the others I have little knowledge of filming to know if it's the best in those categories.

I think if Warner Bros grew a pair they could have a really interesting movie on their hands exploring the background of the Syrian sniper, and how he came to be bizarro Chris Kyle.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Cooper deserves an award, as for the others I have little knowledge of filming to know if it's the best in those categories.

Compared to the likes of Keaton and Carrell and Simmons? No.

It serves it's purpose, as an introduction to the complex characters who excel in their disciplines mushed up for the masses.

That's what it achieved. That's not what it was trying to do.

 

[KSaiyu]

I can't claim to know what it was really trying to do.

 

[Johnnypenso]

What does this have to do with Islam?

 

[KSaiyu]

People see it as an anti Islam film. People also think some album was the devil's music when played backwards.