Islam - What's your view on it?

[Carbonox]

http://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/2zw63p/suicide_bomber_explodes_in_yemen_mosque_just_as/

Video might be NSFW.

I really feel there needs to be a saying to this... something like "You live by the sword, you die by the sword"?

 

[KSaiyu]

So instead of being an armchair activist I thought I'd go down to one of the largest mosques in Western Europe to see if we could do something to turn students vulnerable to extremism to the Mosques and away from extremism. Unfortunately it was very much a case of "we are doing all we can" and "this problem is new to us" before telling me to my face that I had to do research and I'd discover how ISIS are really funded and trained ("the West") and who controls the media (they didn't openly say it, but insinuated "the Jews"). Next I was given a half hour lecture on converting to Islam.

This is one of the largest Mosques, for one of the largest Muslim communities outside the Middle East/Asia
This is 'moderate Islam'.

 

[photonrider]

http://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/2zw63p/suicide_bomber_explodes_in_yemen_mosque_just_as/

Video might be NSFW.

I really feel there needs to be a saying to this... something like "You live by the sword, you die by the sword"?

Using Biblical cliches to change their minds just might work.

So instead of being an armchair activist I thought I'd go down to one of the largest mosques in Western Europe to see if we could do something to turn students vulnerable to extremism to the Mosques and away from extremism. Unfortunately it was very much a case of "we are doing all we can" and "this problem is new to us" before telling me to my face that I had to do research and I'd discover how ISIS are really funded and trained ("the West") and who controls the media (they didn't openly say it, but insinuated "the Jews"). Next I was given a half hour lecture on converting to Islam.

This is one of the largest Mosques, for one of the largest Muslim communities outside the Middle East/Asia
This is 'moderate Islam'.

You are a brave and concerned citizen. 👍
Did you ask them proof of their accusations? Would have been interesting to see what they came up with.

I'm still trying to wire my neurons sensibly about the Afghan woman, Farkhunda; she was beaten by a mob of men, then her body was thrown off a roof, run over by a vehicle, set on fire, and thrown into a river. Police apparently just 'looked on' according to many international reports.
Her crime - accused of burning a copy of some holy book.
The uproar now? Apparently she didn't.
The thinking? It was okay to do that if she did.

A book that was once dino-poop. Versus the life of one of Nature's nurturers.
My neurons are rebelling.

 

[KSaiyu]

You are a brave and concerned citizen. 👍
Did you ask them proof of their accusations? Would have been interesting to see what they came up with.

"The internet". I'm not kidding.

I'm concerned because my Medical School has gone from being in the top 20 in the world to last in British medical schools in the space of a few years. This has coincided with an influx of students ill-prepared for medicine as a by-product of the School's diversity program that actively penalises white candidates. As I've said before we have at least 3 documented links to international terrorists and talks arranged by Medics have segragated boys and girls and condoned ISIS's beginnings. Things have gotten so bad that our Medical Student Union was close to being run by a Muslim with only a year's clinical experience, and who would only have been voted in by peers because of his religion. Past presidents took the unprecedented step of voicing their concerns ahead of the election and the AGM was the largest turnout in history such was the significance of the results.

I'm still trying to wire my neurons sensibly about the Afghan woman, Farkhunda; she was beaten by a mob of men, then her body was thrown off a roof, run over by a vehicle, set on fire, and thrown into a river. Police apparently just 'looked on' according to many international reports.
Her crime - accused of burning a copy of some holy book.
The uproar now? Apparently she didn't.
The thinking? It was okay to do that if she did.

A book that was once dino-poop. Versus the life of one of Nature's nurturers.
My neurons are rebelling.

The book is their life. I was told no fewer than 4 times that no-one has memorised the Torah or Bible but millions worldwide have memorised the Quran.

 

[ClydeYellow]

@KSaiyu, the kind of response you've encountered is hardly surprising. What's surprising is that a student of Medicine / a Medic thinks the explaination for such phenomenon is as simple as what you propose ("it's written in the Quran").

Curiously enough, being involved in a student union / in student politics myself (and far from being an "armchair activist", as I am a student of Sociology involved in a couple of research projects amongst other things) I recently had the (dis)pleasure to interact with members of a Christian centrist union. Said people argued that the ISIL is the product of a "culture of savagery" and that if I'd done my research I'd know who control the media (the damn Communists). I was then given a half an hour lecture on "rediscovering my faith in Christ".

Of course my observation (and yours) have little validity outside the realm of sharing anecdotes. However, what I suspect is that certain beliefs may be part of a certain social identity that is adopted more or less acritically. As a further (still anecdotal) evidence of my point, none of my Muslim colleagues believes that the West is behind the IS (or at least, that the West trains and finances the IS) or that the media are controlled by the Jews, because they're people used to look at social beliefs with a critical eye (although they won't deny that those beliefs are often expressed by relatives and friends).

I honestly have no desire to propose yet another time my analysis on the social and political causes of the rise, in the last thirty-forty years, of Islamism and the (usually) more moderate phenomenon of Islamic anti-Westernism (and anti-semitism; although it could be argued that the latter is only a nuance of the former). However, I'd invite you to avoid giving simple answers to very complex questions.

 

[KSaiyu]

@KSaiyu, the kind of response you've encountered is hardly surprising. What's surprising is that a student of Medicine / a Medic thinks the explaination for such phenomenon is as simple as what you propose ("it's written in the Quran").

Going to need you to point where I said that.

 

[ClydeYellow]

Going to need you to point where I said that.

I'm on it!

The book is their life.

Plus your general attitude towards the question of Islam and "moderate Muslims" (which is actually a term I'd refrain from using: some of the most secular Muslims I know are also in no way moderate in being Muslims).

P.S: of course it may be that I misinterpreted your words, in which case, you have my sincerest apologies.

 

[KSaiyu]

Fair enough, I get misinterpreted all the time.

EDIT: @ClydeYellow If you're interested in finding out the reason why our Muslim population aren't concerned with fighting Islamism, I suggest you look up the major branch of Islam in Britain. The rise of Islamism is not to do with a book, rather the prevalent interpretation of it and the teachings of their "Prophet".

The quote you took from my post was an explanation for why Muslims go to extraordinary lengths against those who deface their book, or insult Mohammad.

 

[Carbonox]

Nigeria is :censored:ed beyond belief. Not only is the population growth pretty much uncontrolled, and Boko Haram keeps on massacrin' up north, but now they got themselves a wonderful Muslim president that is, conveniently, a huge Sharia fanatic! Yay for Islamization!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ctory-in-Nigerias-presidential-elections.html

 

[prisonermonkeys]

This is 'moderate Islam'.

No, I'd say that this is the local religious community feeling disturbed that you felt that you had the right to wander in and start telling people how to do something. You said it yourself - that you went "to see if we could do something to turn students vulnerable to extremism to the Mosques and away from extremism". I count three fallacious assumptions in that statement:

1) You assumed that if you went to the mosque, then you would find people vulnerable to extremism.
2) You assumed that the mosque would have no existing plan or programme to counteract the problem, or that if they did have one, it would be ineffective.
3) You assumed that when you found people vulnerable to extremism, you would be in a position to successfully prevent them from turning to extremism.

Your final statement about "moderate Islam" - plus some of your other comments on the subject - makes it pretty clear that you didn't go to the mosque to try and prevent students from turning to radicalisation. You went to prove to yourself that your preconceived notions of Islam are right, and that you did your best to facilitate change, but since that change was rejected, you don't have to feel guilty about doing nothing further.

In short, your actions present the colonial values that inspire hatred more than they do diffuse it - that the White Man, the Educated Man, the Civilised Man, shows up with all of the answers and none of the understanding to show the masses how to live.

In a word, your actions were disrespectful.

 

[KSaiyu]

No, I'd say that this is the local religious community feeling disturbed that you felt that you had the right to wander in and start telling people how to do something. You said it yourself - that you went "to see if we could do something to turn students vulnerable to extremism to the Mosques and away from extremism". I count three fallacious assumptions in that statement:

1) You assumed that if you went to the mosque, then you would find people vulnerable to extremism.
2) You assumed that the mosque would have no existing plan or programme to counteract the problem, or that if they did have one, it would be ineffective.
3) You assumed that when you found people vulnerable to extremism, you would be in a position to successfully prevent them from turning to extremism.

Your final statement about "moderate Islam" - plus some of your other comments on the subject - makes it pretty clear that you didn't go to the mosque to try and prevent students from turning to radicalisation. You went to prove to yourself that your preconceived notions of Islam are right, and that you did your best to facilitate change, but since that change was rejected, you don't have to feel guilty about doing nothing further.

In short, your actions present the colonial values that inspire hatred more than they do diffuse it - that the White Man, the Educated Man, the Civilised Man, shows up with all of the answers and none of the understanding to show the masses how to live.

In a word, your actions were disrespectful.

Your post doesn't deserve a reply after what I've done this week so I'll simply ask:

What would you like me to tell the concerned parents of my peers who fear they will head to Syria?

I'm all ears, because the Mosque had no idea.

 

[Carbonox]

Intriguing.

 

[TenEightyOne]

So instead of being an armchair activist I thought I'd go down to one of the largest mosques in Western Europe to see if we could do something to turn students vulnerable to extremism to the Mosques and away from extremism. Unfortunately it was very much a case of "we are doing all we can" and "this problem is new to us" before telling me to my face that I had to do research and I'd discover how ISIS are really funded and trained ("the West") and who controls the media (they didn't openly say it, but insinuated "the Jews"). Next I was given a half hour lecture on converting to Islam.

This is only my opinion but your burgeoning self-importance has become beyond belief. Has it occurred to you that the psychosis you seem to infer from all Muslims might be present in yourself? As a genuine question; have you sought some help with this anxiety? You work in a low-grade medical context (I infer) and should be able to get access to help quite easily.

The book is their life. I was told no fewer than 4 times that no-one has memorised the Torah or Bible but millions worldwide have memorised the Quran.

Then you were told wrong, you need to do more research. It is less common nowadays for scholars to memorise Torah or the Bible but still not unheard of. By your own previous claims Isla'amic societies are behind parallel Western cultures with regards to enlightenment, education and literacy. That would explain why Qu'uranic memorisation is more common.

 

[ClydeYellow]

Intriguing.

Christian Pfeiffer, from the KFN, also points out that the phenomenon is not due to Islam itself, but to the way it is taught.

Indeed.

 

[KSaiyu]

This is only my opinion but your burgeoning self-importance has become beyond belief. Has it occurred to you that the psychosis you seem to infer from all Muslims might be present in yourself? As a genuine question; have you sought some help with this anxiety? You work in a low-grade medical context (I infer) and should be able to get access to help quite easily.

Shame on you. Really. What have I done to deserve such disrespect.

Then you were told wrong, you need to do more research. It is less common nowadays for scholars to memorise Torah or the Bible but still not unheard of. By your own previous claims Isla'amic societies are behind parallel Western cultures with regards to enlightenment, education and literacy. That would explain why Qu'uranic memorisation is more common.

You didn't think I believed him did you?

I was also told millions of Muslims marched through London to show solidarity for Charlie Hebdo.

I was also told America funds ISIS to keep their arms trade.

You need to read between the lines of posts and not come up with your own interpretations for things that people don't mean. My post shows how a deluded individual is bragging about the holiness of his Book and how it drives men to tears and zealous memorisation. At least 15 minutes of the "conversation" was dedicated to it.

If anyone's interested, even Muslim leaders recognise the problem. Still what do they know, the bigots.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

What would you like me to tell the concerned parents of my peers who fear they will head to Syria?

How about you ask them what role you and the wider community can play, instead of showing up uninvited and telling them what to do and expecting the problem to be fixed?

Your post doesn't deserve a reply after what I've done this week

I don't care what you have done this week, because this isn't about your egocentrism. If you actually want to make a change, you shouldn't be stopping every two hours to highlight everything you've done. And given the way you handled the visit to the mosque, I am willing to bet that you have actually achieved significantly less than you think you have.

 

[KSaiyu]

How about you ask them what role you and the wider community can play, instead of showing up uninvited and telling them what to do and expecting the problem to be fixed?

Did that (was told to fix the media's portrayal of Muslims - not sure how that helps my peers but....) Next?

I don't care what you have done this week, because this isn't about your egocentrism. If you actually want to make a change, you shouldn't be stopping every two hours to highlight everything you've done. And given the way you handled the visit to the mosque, I am willing to bet that you have actually achieved significantly less than you think you have.

Oh yeah I remember you at the Mosque. Actually no I don't, so quit saying I handled myself poorly.

EDIT: Oh hello, point where I "showed up uninvited" (It was an open day, invited) and "told them what to do" (I asked what we non-Muslims can do)

 

[TenEightyOne]

I thought I'd go down to one of the largest mosques in Western Europe to see if we could do something to turn students vulnerable to extremism to the Mosques and away from extremism

If you came across as arrogantly as you seem to in these threads then I imagine you would have raised a few eyebrows. I hope you didn't get as climactically excited about your contacts with SO15 as you do here, that would have been an embarrassing show.

You need to read between the lines of posts and not come up with your own interpretations for things that people don't mean.

Alternatively you could simply say what you mean. Many of the things you say seem, to my mind, to have a stark and simplistic clarity about them. Who knew you'd become, like, an onion?

What have I done to deserve such disrespect.

You've perpetuated a narcissistic, islamaphobic dialogue peppered with excitable anecdotes based on a narrow experience. You've then argued at length that a good number of other contributers are wrong when they say that one simply can't extrapolate 'some' to 'all'. You consistently seem to show a lack of understanding of the very nature of extremism - a left-field fundamentalist section outside a large centre-ground of moderates.

This latest story about your visit to the mosque to roll-up-your-sleeves-and-sort-it-all-out was ball-curdlingly awful to imagine. You fail to consider the argument that you yourself may represent exactly the kind of blinkered fundamentalism that you and your SO15 comrades (how they must itch for the phone to ring) are so excited about.

In my opinion.

 

[KSaiyu]

If you came across as arrogantly as you seem to in these threads then I imagine you would have raised a few eyebrows. I hope you didn't get as climactically excited about your contacts with SO15 as you do here, that would have been an embarrassing show.



Alternatively you could simply say what you mean. Many of the things you say seem, to my mind, to have a stark and simplistic clarity about them. Who knew you'd become, like, an onion?



You've perpetuated a narcissistic, islamaphobic dialogue peppered with excitable anecdotes based on a narrow experience. You've then argued at length that a good number of other contributers are wrong when they say that one simply can't extrapolate 'some' to 'all'. You consistently seem to show a lack of understanding of the very nature of extremism - a left-field fundamentalist section outside a large centre-ground of moderates.

This latest story about your visit to the mosque to roll-up-your-sleeves-and-sort-it-all-out was ball-curdlingly awful to imagine. You fail to consider the argument that you yourself may represent exactly the kind of blinkered fundamentalism that you and your SO15 comrades (how they must itch for the phone to ring) are so excited about.

Car crash of a post. I especially like the "SO15 comrades". I'm a member of the public - you're not actually put through to SO15 when you call about suspicions. Still you could change your post to "Met Police Telephone Operator" and it might make a bit more sense.

In my opinion.

Ah that makes sense.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

This latest story about your visit to the mosque to roll-up-your-sleeves-and-sort-it-all-out was ball-curdlingly awful to imagine.

I liked the part where they told him how he could help and he dismissed it immediately because it was too hard.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I especially like the "SO15 comrades" since you're not actually put through to SO15 when you call about suspicions. Still you could change your post to "Met Police Telephone Operator" and it might make a bit more sense.

...I miss the days when I didn't have to contact SO15 as part of my week at university...

...when you're dealing with SO15 as part of student life there comes a point where your priorities shift...

You're welcome.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

You're welcome.

He's like the General Melchett of SO15.

 

[KSaiyu]

I liked the part where they told him how he could help and he dismissed it immediately because it was too hard.

You....you want me to tell my peers families that I'm going to help stop their son going to Syria by changing the Media's perception of Muslims?

You're welcome.

Yes, you deal with them through the Metropolitan Police? Are you confused?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

You....you want me to tell my peers families that I'm going to help stop their son going to Syria by changing the Media's perception of Muslims?

No, I don't. The people at the mosque do. After all, they're the ones who told you how you could help.

 

[KSaiyu]

No, I don't. The people at the mosque do. After all, they're the ones who told you how you could help.

And you accept that is a good enough response from the largest mosque in Britain about one of the followers of their faith? Complete washing of their hands of the problem? Not even asking the boys name?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

And you think that if you prevent one person from being radicalised, you have fixed the problem?

At best, you went to that mosque looking for a one-size-fits-all solution that you just had to set and forget and it would never be a problem again. @TenEightyOne was right - you have no understanding of the issue that you claim to be trying to fix.

 

[ClydeYellow]

And you accept that is a good enough response from the largest mosque in Britain about one of the followers of their faith? Complete washing of their hands of the problem? Not even asking the boys name?

What they told you is not how they think you may prevent those people from enrolling in the IS, but rather, how they think you may prevent those people from wanting to enroll in the first place.

British multiculturalism has failed because it was based on the idea that "you will never be one of us even if you're here". And guess what happens when you tell someone that he's not "one of us" long enough? He ends up believing it and becoming vulnerable to the vultures of social exclusion like the IS recruiters in Europe.

And yeah, if you want to help solve a social issue, you start by looking at what exactly is not working in the first place, and then at what's the cause(s) behind it. If you think you can find a solution to the problem of Islamism in the UK without even fully understanding what Islamism is, let alone what causes it, you're not going to do much. What can they do 'bout this single bloke? Tie him to his bed to prevent him from going to Syria?

 

[KSaiyu]

And you think that if you prevent one person from being radicalised, you have fixed the problem?

At best, you went to that mosque looking for a one-size-fits-all solution that you just had to set and forget and it would never be a problem again. @TenEightyOne was right - you have no understanding of the issue that you claim to be trying to fix.

Oh there you go again, presuming to know my intentions.

The fact is I was invited for a tour. I took my shoes off and was guided around whilst I didn't ask questions but others did on "jihad" and extremism. I gratefully accepted my English translation of the Quran, although I said Islam didn't appeal to me, just as I told the Evangelical who thought it was his mission to save me that I didn't intend on returning to Church. I then asked about my peers and brothers of friends, and what we could do together.

I'd dare say I know a hell of a lot more of the issue that we should all be trying to fix than you.

What they told you is not how they think you may prevent those people from enrolling in the IS, but rather, how they think you may prevent those people from wanting to enroll in the first place.

British multiculturalism has failed because it was based on the idea that "you will never be one of us even if you're here". And guess what happens when you tell someone that he's not "one of us" long enough? He ends up believing it and becoming vulnerable to the vultures of social exclusion like the IS recruiters in Europe.

And yeah, if you want to help solve a social issue, you start by looking at what exactly is not working in the first place, and then at what's the cause(s) behind it. If you think you can find a solution to the problem of Islamism in the UK without even fully understanding what Islamism is, let alone what causes it, you're not going to do much. What can they do 'bout this single bloke? Tie him to his bed to prevent him from going to Syria?

You really are not serious with that are you? You are honestly trying to blame the rise of British Islamism on the British shunning Muslims? This is ignorant and dangerous beyond belief, and is laughable coming from a European.

OK, I'll entertain it:

Give me a history of Deobandi Islam, the MCB and the extent of Wahhabism in the UK.

 

[eran0004]

Not only is the population growth pretty much uncontrolled

You mean, exactly like in the rest of the world?

 

[KSaiyu]

You mean, exactly like in the rest of the world?

Type "Nigerian Population Growth" in Google.
Click "Explore More"
Add countries to the graph.
Compare, contrast and have fun! (It's a fun app)