Islam - What's your view on it?

[eran0004]

Type "Nigerian Population Growth" in Google.
Click "Explore More"
Add countries to the graph.
Compare, contrast and have fun! (It's a fun app)

I didn't get any app.

 

[ClydeYellow]

You really are not serious with that are you? You are honestly trying to blame the rise of British Islamism on the British shunning Muslims? This is ignorant and dangerous beyond belief, and is laughable coming from a European.

Yes I am.

It's not the British shunning Muslim that's the problem. It's sixty years of failed integration policies, of political rethorics based on the shunning of immigrants, and of global policies that either didn't care or didn't know how to meed the needs of people living in the ME and SE Asia.

Again, I do not doubt your good will, but your vision is incredibly limited in time and space, and lacks in detail. And if we want to find enduring solutions to the problem then we need to look at what went wrong in those sixty years in which the Muslim world went from being on its way to secularizaton to a morass of sectarian conflicts and religious extremisms.

As for the specific problem of British Islamism, the exclusion (social, political, and economical - ever wondered why so many Pakistanis are self-employed?) of Muslim immigrants (predominantly Pakistanis) led to the creation of a parallel culture with a link to the country of origin. This facilitated significantly the spread of certain ideologies (the aforementoned religious extremisms) which were for the most part "imported" from Pakistan and that were used to create a social identity that could take the abuse which was inflicted.

Let's not forget that Islamism started to emerge in Britain in the late 70s and the 80s, a period in which the last rush of immigrants was met by a British society that was answering to the instability of the period with an increasing conservativism.

Of course I am guilty of oversimplifying what's a complex issue by giving relevance only to a factor. But time is of the essence, and a more thorough analysis would incur in many tl; dr.

 

[KSaiyu]

Yes I am.

It's not the British shunning Muslim that's the problem. It's sixty years of failed integration policies, of political rethorics based on the shunning of immigrants, and of global policies that either didn't care or didn't know how to meed the needs of people living in the ME and SE Asia.

I have to be honest and say I can't see this. Why have other immigrant groups got over the initial political shunning (yes it happened to us all, this isn't exclusive to Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Arab state muslims)? Or you are saying it is the West's interventions in the ME and SE Asia that is the cause. In which case boo hoo - you don't see the Afro Caribbeans going too crazy over slavery. Or Hindus/Sikhs after Imperialism

Again, I do not doubt your good will, but your vision is incredibly limited in time and space, and lacks in detail. And if we want to find enduring solutions to the problem then we need to look at what went wrong in those sixty years in which the Muslim world went from being on its way to secularizaton to a morass of sectarian conflicts and religious extremisms.

As for the specific problem of British Islamism, the exclusion (social, political, and economical - ever wondered why so many Pakistanis are self-employed?) of Muslim immigrants (predominantly Pakistanis) led to the creation of a parallel culture with a link to the country of origin. This facilitated significantly the spread of certain ideologies (the aforementoned religious extremisms) which were for the most part "imported" from Pakistan and that were used to create a social identity that could take the abuse which was inflicted.

Let's not forget that Islamism started to emerge in Britain in the late 70s and the 80s, a period in which the last rush of immigrants was met by a British society that was answering to the instability of the period with an increasing conservativism.

Of course I am guilty of oversimplifying what's a complex issue by giving relevance only to a factor. But time is of the essence, and a more thorough analysis would incur in many tl; dr.

I'd be happy to discuss it over PM if you want, because it's my belief that the strand of predominant Islam imported from Pakistan is the root cause.

I didn't get any app.

http://www.google.co.uk/publicdata/...pop_grow&idim=country:NGA:FRA:KEN&hl=en&dl=en

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I'd dare say I know a hell of a lot more of the issue that we should all be trying to fix than you.

And a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing to have.

 

[KSaiyu]

And a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing to have.

Hey, you sound like my Ward Matron right after I told the doctors to change their "treatment" strategy for a Pakistani gentleman complaining of headache/nausea+vomiting/blurred vision/photophobia/altered consciousness.

Said gentleman has promptly now been referred to the Neurology team.

A little knowledge is better than no knowledge at all.

EDIT: Ahh I'm coming across confrontational. Yes it can be dangerous - see UKIPs strategy of scaring people about the 'threat' of immigrants. Knowledge used in the right way must always be seen as a positive, however 'little' it may be

 

[prisonermonkeys]

A little knowledge is better than no knowledge at all.

I see you took my comment as a compliment. It wasn't intended as such.

 

[KSaiyu]

I see you took my comment as a compliment. It wasn't intended as such.

And I see your reading comprehension needs to improve.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

And I see your reading comprehension needs to improve.

There's nothing wrong with my comprehension. When I said that "a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing", I meant that when you know a little bit on a subject, it's easy to convince yourself that you know so much more. You talk about knowledge being used "the right way", but nothing that you have done has been "right". You claim to have some knowledge of the situation, and yet everything that you have done exhibits every behaviour and every value that fuels discontent within the Islamic community.

Worse, your story gas changed. You went from someone visiting a mosque to actively investigate ways of mitigating the potential for extremism to take hold, to a visitor who was invited and only asked after the fact for the sake of a single individual. So which is it? And why should I believe your answer, considering that you have completely shot your own credibility.

 

[KSaiyu]

Erm...Invited to an open day, and after the tour asking about not one specific individual but a number of peers + relatives of friends. Believable?

So instead of being an armchair activist I thought I'd go down to one of the largest mosques in Western Europe to see if we could do something to turn students vulnerable to extremism to the Mosques and away from extremism.

This is such a strange "argument"

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Believable?

Normally, yes.

In this case? No. Because, like I said, you've changed your story as to what happened. You have no credibility.

 

[KSaiyu]

Oh dear. Note to self in the future: Divulge everything in the first post.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Oh dear. Note to self in the future: Divulge everything in the first post.

Yes, you must be careful to divulge absolutely every detail, and also usually to state that although you are talking about one thing in particular, you mean no offense to everything else that's even remotely related to it. You'll get the hang of it eventually

 

[Scaff]

Oh dear. Note to self in the future: Divulge everything in the first post.

How about you stop with the unverifiable anecdotal claims as you have been asked to do before!

You have been asked to stop doing this and yet you seem to think that its OK to ignore the request.

You will, if asked by a representative of the forums, cease posting any content.

It's no longer a request, either start to back up these anecdotal claims with independently verifiable evidence or stop using them, failure to follow either of these paths will be treated as an AUP violation.

 

[GBO Possum]

On a lighter "note"

 

[KSaiyu]

How about you stop with the unverifiable anecdotal claims as you have been asked to do before!

You have been asked to stop doing this and yet you seem to think that its OK to ignore the request.

Why are others allowed to post unverifiable, anecdotal claims without an order to cease posting content? Doesn't seem fair.

http://www.eastlondonmosque.org.uk/news/mosque-exhibition-open-day-28th-29th-march-2015 <- Open day

I mean do I have to be wired up to post about my experiences living in London or working in the NHS?

I'll leave with a verifiable account of life for a lot of Muslim women in ghettos:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22044724

And here's something that will really blow people's minds. I actually want a Muslim Prime Minister. It would be amazing if Nazir Afzal became involved in politics.

 

[Scaff]

Why are others allowed to post unverifiable, anecdotal claims without an order to cease posting content? Doesn't seem fair.

Anyone who uses them to the degree you have been doing is.

I mean do I have to be wired up to post about my experiences living in London or working in the NHS?

Given that is predominately all you use to provide 'proof' then yes. You have repeatedly attempted to use anecdotal evidence as the sole support to multiple claims, do you honestly expect this to be taken at face value given the often inflammatory nature of some of your claims?

And here's something that will really blow people's minds. I actually want a Muslim Prime Minister. It would be amazing if Nazir Afzal became involved in politics.

Please explain why?

 

[KSaiyu]

Given that is predominately all you use to provide 'proof' then yes. You have repeatedly attempted to use anecdotal evidence as the sole support to multiple claims, do you honestly expect this to be taken at face value given the often inflammatory nature of some of your claims?

Hey woah - I've given statistics, articles and videos in support of my opinions.

Please explain why?

Simple - Muslims lack the equivalent of a Pope. With a good figurehead at the top of our Government the British can address Islamism without coming across racist and have a role model for young Muslims to aspire to instead of staying entrenched in this victim complex they currently have which feeds conspiracy theories and fosters ghettoisation and isolation. With no leader there is a vacuum, all too easily taken up by extremist speakers much more savvy at appealing to the disenfranchised than the imams.

It's all about tackling potential problems before they arise. Islam is going to be the dominant religion in the world at this rate, we just won't be around to see it (projected to be 2100).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ligious-landscape-will-look-like-in-2050.html

The rest are simply being outbred.

This isn't bad news if we choose to stand up to the problems the religion can bring to populations when it becomes the dominant force in a region, and I believe that should start now with good Muslim leaders.

 

[Scaff]

Hey woah - I've given statistics, articles and videos in support of my opinions.

Which is why I said predominately. Your 'go to' evidence to support your points is your own anecdotal experiences, which you have often then extrapolated to cover a much wider range than your own experiences actually cover.

The end result is often neither accurate or a good debating method.

Simple - Muslims lack the equivalent of a Pope. With a good figurehead at the top of our Government the British can address Islamism without coming across racist and have a role model for young Muslims to aspire to instead of staying entrenched in this victim complex they currently have which feeds conspiracy theories and fosters ghettoisation and isolation. With no leader there is a vacuum, all too easily taken up by extremist speakers much more savvy at appealing to the disenfranchised than the imams.

I would agree to some degree however with one of he key differences between Shia and Sunni being the acceptance and required standards for religious figureheads may be a stumbling block (and that would be behind my personal key issue with any head of government being seen as a religious figurehead n any way).

It's all about tackling potential problems before they arise. Islam is going to be the dominant religion in the world at this rate, we just won't be around to see it (projected to be 2100).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ligious-landscape-will-look-like-in-2050.html

The rest are simply being outbred.

This isn't bad news if we choose to stand up to the problems the religion can bring to populations when it becomes the dominant force in a region, and I believe that should start now with good Muslim leaders.

I quite agree that tackling issues before they arise is the best solution and while the projections above do indicate that globally Islam with be percentage point ahead of Christianity this is based on an 85 year projection, quite a bit could change with the next few decades alone to change the above.

 

[Carbonox]

http://yle.fi/uutiset/parliament_cancels_mohammed_cartoonist_visit/7920357

Trust in our parliament has been lost. I definitely have no doubts about which party I will vote for.

Re: fertility rates by religion: I for one am glad I will most likely never live to see a world where Islam is a leading / dominant religion... I feel bad for future unbeliever generations though.

 

[KSaiyu]

http://yle.fi/uutiset/parliament_cancels_mohammed_cartoonist_visit/7920357

Trust in our parliament has been lost. I definitely have no doubts about which party I will vote for.

Re: fertility rates by religion: I for one am glad I will most likely never live to see a world where Islam is a leading / dominant religion... I feel bad for future unbeliever generations though.

Unfortunately it affects institutions as well (at Trinity College no less, the University attended by Edmund Burke)

It's not a great time to attend university as a school-leaver/young adult at the moment. Thank whoever I just attend for the lectures at my age.

 

[DCP]

To my muslim friends, you might enjoy this debate.
You will allot of things you didn't know about the quran, which I also find shocking. I always thought this quran was written only a few 100 years after your prophet.

One thing is for certain, the god of Islam is not even close to being the God of the Bible.

 

[KSaiyu]

DCP you do realise Muslims believe the "God of the Bible" is the same "god of Islam". And the "God of the Bible" wasn't exactly all peaches and cream for the majority of that book..

 

[TenEightyOne]

You will allot of things you didn't know about the quran, which I also find shocking.

Now you're interested in the truths about holy texts?

One thing is for certain, the god of Islam is not even close to being the God of the Bible.

Imagine a facepalm. There ya go.

 

[DCP]

DCP you do realise Muslims believe the "God of the Bible" is the same "god of Islam". And the "God of the Bible" wasn't exactly all peaches and cream for the majority of that book..

Not all of them, as we get the opportunity to explain to them why their god is unique only to them.
Likewise to every other religion and their god / gods.

For the bible, it's pretty clear, Jesus says He is the way, the truth and the life, and that no man goes to the Father but through Him.

Muslims believe Jesus is a prophet. Obviously this god is not the same.
This religion teaches good deeds and works will spare them from hell, as like all other religions.
Nope, the God of the bible is very different to this common teaching.

 

[GBO Possum]

For the bible, it's pretty clear, Jesus says He is the way, the truth and the life, and that no man goes to the Father but through Him.

Given that there are no contemporaneous records of what Jesus actually said, this is a bit of a stretch. Somebody making this claim many decades or even centuries after Jesus lived doesn't make the claim true.

 

[DCP]

Given that there are no contemporaneous records of what Jesus actually said, this is a bit of a stretch. Somebody making this claim many decades or even centuries after Jesus lived doesn't make the claim true.

You'll only know that if you find Him.
Guess what, He even tells you how to find Him that many years ago...

 

[GBO Possum]

You'll only know that if you find Him.
Guess what, He even tells you how to find Him that many years ago...

I have no idea what this means. "Know" what? "Find him"? and the entire last sentence.

 

[DCP]

I have no idea what this means. "Know" what? "Find him"? and the entire last sentence.

You said you didn't think Jesus made that claim so many years ago.
I said, if you really want to know if Jesus did make that claim, you could, if you opened your heart to Him.
By attempting this with an open heart, you would then know that He said it, and meant it.👍

 

[GBO Possum]

you could, if you opened your heart to Him

I'm not about to let some dead man (who may never have existed) play around inside my heart!

 

[monkeywall]

Just spotted this thread and though what the 🤬 a religious discussion on GTP.

Haven't read much and I won't be read any more simply because my view is who cares; Islam, Christianity, Buddhist or Rasta.

At the end of the day it's a belief, yes a very deep personal one but its simply a belief, no matter which one you believe to be right. As long as you don't force anything upon anyone, cause harm to or oppress anyone and allow them to decide for themselves who care's. Different beliefs allow for different views of the world and help us as 'humans' to come up with all the stuff we've have today.

This my have been said before, if so 👍

One last thing, the progress of science and medicine etc was improved upon by the Islamic empire after the Greek empire before being further advanced by todays Christians western empire.