mister dog
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Hear hear.
Israel - Palestine discussion thread
- Thread starter Beeblebrox237
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zzz_pt
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- zzz_pt
No. Hamas try to kill people and destroy israeli buildings. But they do not target them. THey don't have the technology to do so. Israeli army on the other hand, targets innocent people and kill them.
None of them is right. But Israel, with all that technology should be doing a better job than killing and bombing inocent people. They catch some terrorists it's true. But 70% of their bullets and bombs are killing people who just want to live in peace.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/18/israeli-soldier-posts-instagram-palestinian
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- 4,035
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- Agremont
From the Washington post.
zzz_pt
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- zzz_pt
http://www.globalresearch.ca/intern...raeli-crimes-against-humanity-in-gaza/5392784
International Scientists and Doctors Denounce Israeli “Crimes Against Humanity” in Gaza
International Scientists and Doctors Denounce Israeli “Crimes Against Humanity” in Gaza
VolkswagenX
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Danoff
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He actually says that they can't do that (presumably because it would be wrong). I don't read that as someone arguing for the action, but simply pointing out that it's one of the very few actions that has any weight against the mind of someone who is committed to kill himself in battle. He has a point, albeit a purely academic one.
It is, in a nutshell, the problem with Israel. They don't take the high road, or maybe can't afford to take the high road, and strike against only those that are attacking them. They bring the fight to the (innocent) people, in the hopes that they'll convince the militant ones to back down. Unfortunately that tactic only seems to strengthen their resolve.
KSaiyu
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- 2,822
So the Al-Wafa hospital was being used by Hamas
Using paralysed/elderly patients as cover is beyond cowardly. You know, I wonder where all those marching in London for the Palestinian cause were when ISIS was running Christians out of Mosul, where some communities have settled for 2000 years.
Using paralysed/elderly patients as cover is beyond cowardly. You know, I wonder where all those marching in London for the Palestinian cause were when ISIS was running Christians out of Mosul, where some communities have settled for 2000 years.
- 4,543
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- Zenith113
This is a good point, but Israel is trying to establish itself as a legit country that is being attacked by a terrorist group, as Israel has declared Hamas.
It's expected (but still inexcusable) for a militant group to use human shields, Israel cannot do the same if they want to be the good guys.
- 7,176
- Lisboa
- FLAT_TWELVE
ISIS has nothing to do with this, unless you want to level Israel on par with them. If you want to compare, see how the UK fought the IRA, or Spain fought the ETA. No comparison is possible though, the UK and Spain, whatever we think about the root cause of their problems with terrorism, are civilized countries.
About that article, I had to laugh:
- the first thing I saw when I clicked on the link to it was a pop up urging me to help Israel.
- the second thing I saw was an advert about luxury homes near Efrat, Jerusalem. Efrat? Ahhh, yes, another piece of land stolen from the palestinians, check it on wikipedia or read below:
"Like all Israeli settlements in the Israeli-occupied territories, Efrat is considered illegal under international law, though Israel disputes this.[4] Most of the international community considers Israeli settlements to violate theFourth Geneva Convention's prohibition on the transfer of an occupying power's civilian population into occupied territory.[7] Israel disputes that the Fourth Geneva Convention applies to the Palestinian territories as they had not been legally held by a sovereign prior to Israel taking control of them.[3] This view has been rejected by theInternational Court of Justice and the International Committee of the Red Cross.[8]"
- The third thing I saw was a sponsored post about something called Hasbara. Need I say more?
- Yes, I need. The fourth thing I saw was the main news piece. And it was unbelievable. Apparently the Hospital had no patients. Why? Because Israel warned they should leave. Why? Because the Hamas was there. So, whet exactly happened there?
"The hospital was evacuated from patients and staff and continued to be occupied by Hamas gunmen who continued to fire at the IDF forces."
And then it was destroyed.
So, either the Hamas guys were stupid in letting the patients out and remaining there to be shot ... (in any case your accusation - "Using paralysed/elderly patients as cover is beyond cowardly" - FAILS) ... or the entire story is a blatant lie.
mister dog
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KSaiyu
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Jewishpress.com
ABC news
Only extremists worth protesting about are the Jewish ones I guess.
Hun200kmh
They didn't hold the patients hostage. They used the fact that the remaining patients were near enough impossible to move as a safe haven from Israeli bombing until it was clear Israel was coming for the hospital.
- 7,176
- Lisboa
- FLAT_TWELVE
Not sure what you mean by "this". If you mean the importance of establishing the publication is clearly biased, or if you mean the importance of Efrat being occupied land. Both are important.
About the morality issue, again I'm not sure I understand you. This isn't a moral issue, this is a legal issue about land ownership and land occupation. You either care about the international community organizing itself through a set of pre-accepted rules, or you think that's irrelevant. Your call, you are entitled to any opinion, whatever that may be.
The morality of it would lead us probably to give those luxury homes to palestinians currently living in Gaza. For free.
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
@zzz_pt you really are too engrossed with what you say to even be a valuable person to discuss/argue/debate with on any threads in the current events forum. You rely far too much on knee jerk reactions rather than realistic view points and facts to be honest. The only time I see you happy is when the masses that agree for their own reasoning on the religion threads happen to side with you. Though they choose atheism or being agnostic for far different reason from what I see than you.
If you haven't noticed which is usually your issue, I've actually asked for more info and am quite educated on the Israeli-Palestinian relations it's not that hard to figure out, however since this is a more newer transgression I'm actually asking questions in here to be educated. I don't just sit on my laurels and say "yeah the plight of the Palestinians is vastly obvious here and the Jews have no right! Don't say any more cause it is obvious guys".
So my eyes are quite open, but once again it is this double standard you play at where you get to point your finger and not divulge anything further and can't possibly see how your rose tinted view is skewed. Bravo for actually contributing in an intellectual manner (since you didn't) to this thread, you've made everyone that much more knowledgeable with your skewed vision.
Israel like any sovereign nation has all the right in the world to strike back when attacked, those of Hamas gave up their right to live by attacking in the name of what ever God they think gives a damn. Israel however should have practiced more precision than sweeping death. Furthermore to be fair just like Hezbollah and Al Qaeda, Hamas is known to go to extremes to make sure their vision is achieved and if that means using children, women, elderly, or even pets as pawns in the chess match they will and have. So if you think this is a genocidal targeting of those groups by Israel you may want to educate yourself beyond the hipster trends that pop up during these moments. There is more to the story than social media has shown as they are also one sided.
Edit: Also where is your sense of justice for Israel when Palestine tries to kill innocents (more so fringe groups not all of Palestine) in Israel? What is this double standard I mean do enough turtle neck sweater wearing types get together waving a flag for this cause or another cause it's cool and you just jump on it like they do?
I mean it's the same silly attitude people had with Kony 2012 and look how that went.
Just because Hamas isn't as advance and precise or the Palestinians that side with them, they get a free pass?
If you haven't noticed which is usually your issue, I've actually asked for more info and am quite educated on the Israeli-Palestinian relations it's not that hard to figure out, however since this is a more newer transgression I'm actually asking questions in here to be educated. I don't just sit on my laurels and say "yeah the plight of the Palestinians is vastly obvious here and the Jews have no right! Don't say any more cause it is obvious guys".
So my eyes are quite open, but once again it is this double standard you play at where you get to point your finger and not divulge anything further and can't possibly see how your rose tinted view is skewed. Bravo for actually contributing in an intellectual manner (since you didn't) to this thread, you've made everyone that much more knowledgeable with your skewed vision.
Israel like any sovereign nation has all the right in the world to strike back when attacked, those of Hamas gave up their right to live by attacking in the name of what ever God they think gives a damn. Israel however should have practiced more precision than sweeping death. Furthermore to be fair just like Hezbollah and Al Qaeda, Hamas is known to go to extremes to make sure their vision is achieved and if that means using children, women, elderly, or even pets as pawns in the chess match they will and have. So if you think this is a genocidal targeting of those groups by Israel you may want to educate yourself beyond the hipster trends that pop up during these moments. There is more to the story than social media has shown as they are also one sided.
Edit: Also where is your sense of justice for Israel when Palestine tries to kill innocents (more so fringe groups not all of Palestine) in Israel? What is this double standard I mean do enough turtle neck sweater wearing types get together waving a flag for this cause or another cause it's cool and you just jump on it like they do?
I mean it's the same silly attitude people had with Kony 2012 and look how that went.
Just because Hamas isn't as advance and precise or the Palestinians that side with them, they get a free pass?
- 26,626
- OREGON
- a6m5zero
Hamas are Palestinians, right? They are shelling Israel, indiscriminately? Israelis, they are accused of doing the same at the Palestinians?
In the real world, if military decided to fire at another country from smack middle of populated area, and defending military hit back at the area, IMO, those civilian casualties are on the hands of the military that compromised their safety by deciding to fire from near their homes. Defending military's responsibility is to their own people, first. Civilian casualties should be avoided, on both sides of the fight, but the defending military's job is to bombard the area the enemy is attacking from until they stop firing, or are too crippled to.
I do realize that Gaza is not typical real world situation, but I am genuinely interested in what the international community is asking Israel to do. Once again, I'm totally ignorant on this, and while my logic tells me that it's the Hamas' responsibility to stop the fight, many posts on here, also news headlines reads Israel must stop the killing, they must cease fire.
I'm really confused.
In the real world, if military decided to fire at another country from smack middle of populated area, and defending military hit back at the area, IMO, those civilian casualties are on the hands of the military that compromised their safety by deciding to fire from near their homes. Defending military's responsibility is to their own people, first. Civilian casualties should be avoided, on both sides of the fight, but the defending military's job is to bombard the area the enemy is attacking from until they stop firing, or are too crippled to.
I do realize that Gaza is not typical real world situation, but I am genuinely interested in what the international community is asking Israel to do. Once again, I'm totally ignorant on this, and while my logic tells me that it's the Hamas' responsibility to stop the fight, many posts on here, also news headlines reads Israel must stop the killing, they must cease fire.
I'm really confused.
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
Just like any war not everyone from Country A or B are going to promote or side with the decisions their military makes. In the case of Hamas not every Palestinian sides with them and thus it's not fair for those civilians to die because they happen to reside in the same location as a so called terrorist group. However, I do think they have a certain power to dictate how those actions are carried out by the militant group. In other words I feel that if the people of Palestine don't want any harm to be done they need to make sure that locations that would be safe zones in most wars don't become hold ups for weapons hardware.
And the same goes for Israel when they may do it. This is why I think a more precision method should be enacted by Israel rather than picking up the broad stroke brush and having a field day.
- 26,626
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- a6m5zero
Wouldn't that be like blaming the Allies for bombing on German populous who may not have supported the Nazi Party? If you don't agree with the military in your country causing civilian deaths, wouldn't it now make it your responsibility to criticize them, or oppose them?
Of course, that's often totally unrealistic. Just look at my native Japan, Germans, etc., etc. Military often possess enough power, especially politically to oppress & silence the populous. However, why is the defending nation blamed for civilian casualties when all they are doing is firing back at the position the enemy is firing from? Are they not just returning fire? If Hamas ceased attack, and Israel continues shooting, then I can totally understand the criticism directed at them.
I realize I'm probably offending some of the members on here, but I am trying to learn where this conflict become unconventional. Where does the responsibility of the Palestinian casualties shift from Palestine(attacker) to Israel(defender)?
They sure don't look very efficient, or effective, but I'm ignorant on that, too.
- 22,551
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- HamiltonMP427
It seems quite different when nearly an entire nation agrees with the policies of the Party in power. Are you sure that all of Palestine agrees with what Hamas is doing or vice versa with Israel? I've talked to native Israelis and they're never completely about these type of policies, just as much as Americans with the War on Terror.
Because we know and they know far more that as a nuclear nation that have an abundance or precision in their disposal that allows them to do a better job than they are doing. Right now it seems to be more of an eye for an eye type situation. Where Israel is showing them how to wide attack a populous and actually rack up kills.
I realize I'm probably offending some of the members on here, but I am trying to learn where this conflict become unconventional. Where does the responsibility of the Palestinian casualties shift from Palestine(attacker) to Israel(defender)?
They sure don't look very efficient, or effective, but I'm ignorant on that, too.
That's fine, but it's simple I'd say (not to be rude). Palestine attacks or Hamas more so, and do it on a wide spread basis and thus inflict damage to what ever degree on Israel. This in turn means Israel can attack those who tried to inflict harm on them, which they're doing. However, in doing this they are taking more than necessary in the name of Justice or whatever and getting people who have nothing to do with this involved and killed (hence those fully opposed and on sided for Palestine as if they were just attacked out of the blue).
That is when it becomes Israels responsibility. Though when you put weapon caches in Civilian safety areas it still has some fault with Palestine as well. However, I feel there are other ways to extinguish the problem without an airstrike
- 7,575
- Exorcet
- OE Exorcet
Yes. WWII war crimes were everywhere, not just in Germany.
No.
Because they choose that the lives of innocents lost are worth less than their own lives.
They are returning fire and committing murder at the same time.
Israel is to blame for everyone killed by an Israeli attack when they knew those people were there to begin with. Hamas is to blame for everyone killed by a Hamas attack when they knew those people were there to begin with.
- 26,626
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- a6m5zero
Not at all. If it looked like I implied it, I didn't mean to. I was asking how in this conflict, it becomes the responsibility of the nation being attacked to ensure safety of the civilians, whose military chose to start firing rockets from their schools & backyard?
I did agree to this point. It sure looks to me like they could be doing a hell lot better job.
Well, at least now I understand where they are coming from. Palestine has no control over its security. At this point in the discussion, to me, it seems like that's where the true problem lies.
I think I realize that?
I had to pick one as an example. I'm sorry if I possibly offended you by singling out Germany(one of my favorite people in the world).If my leaders start preaching war I don't agree with, I would be vocal against it. If you don't see it as your responsibility, I certainly wouldn't ague against that. I suppose it's more of my personal stance. I retract my statement.
In my view, once your side initiate the offensive, you(or your military) asked for the retaliation. I certainly respect your view on this too though. 👍
War is filled with murder of the innocents. It is why I'm against wars. Clearly, we are at odds here, as you seem to believe that civilian casualties are avoidable in warfare?(I believe it's inevitable)
I think I understand where you are coming from. I'm seeing this as a war. You see it as a police action against criminals? Am I close?
- 7,575
- Exorcet
- OE Exorcet
No offense, maybe I came off the wrong way. The judgement on the actions carried out by everyone involved in a war should be judged the same. Civilians are civilians on each side. The Allies were supposedly the good guys, that would mean they don't attack anyone unprovoked. The Germans living in Germany at the time that did not support the Nazi's are a third party that should be treated as innocent.I think I realize that?
It makes sense to speak against what you don't agree with, but it's not an obligation. From a practical point of view, what if there's something you consider an even bigger issue? You don't need to drop that other focus and start trying to steer your government on track (thought that would probably be a good thing to do).
I think a distinction needs to be made between "you" and "your military". It's only the people that support the unjust attacks that are able to be punished. To go after anyone else is to do the same as the original aggressor.
Casualties and murder are very different. Casualties that are accidents can happen. They're unfortunate, but the attacker had no intent to harm and isn't guilty of acting unjustly. The Israelis are wrong because they're willing to harm people on the sidelines to get what they want.
There's no distinction for me. Wars don't excuse rights violations. A war can only be just when it's waged to protect rights.
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- a6m5zero
I'm going to lump these together, because I think we are too far apart on this particular topic, and my reply would apply to most of what was posted here.
I see war as conflict where many innocent people are pretty much guaranteed to be killed(in your words, murdered). IMO, that's an unavoidable side effect of war. It's not fair, but it matters little if you backed Hitler, Tojo, etc., if you reside by position strategic to the military, they are going to attack where you live.
You seem to have more faith in a control within wars, where I see them filled with chaos. These weapons, they miss more than they actually hit targets. This only increases in urban warfare, like in Gaza. Humans also make stupid errors & decisions. I'm certain most soldiers, both sides, they are fighting scared, which would create more mistakes. Don't get me wrong, I'm not excusing cold blooded murders, I'm certain plenty of those do take place. I just don't agree that you can shoot around people in wars. In this Gaza conflict though, I'm starting to learn that this isn't exactly a traditional warfare. Palestinian side seems to lack control over its security, completely. If I was to make a suggestion, it would be for Palestinians to unite, take responsibility to choose peace, or be at war(I'm not judging, but sounds like they really need to unite, or split up).
Well, I have my view, and what can be bigger issue than avoiding war against another nation?
