Israel - Palestine discussion thread

[Joel]

I also agree with @Danoff that from a moral/logical standpoint in that I don't think the IDF are unjustified in their actions. I'm skeptical about how prudent their actions are but the aim of the rocket strikes is to indiscriminately kill Israelis and an Israeli response is justified. Maybe I'm being overly naive but I do believe that if the rockets stopped the IDF attacks would stop.

 

[VolkswagenX]

That's flawed because that doesn't aply to the real situation and to this thread.

I won't reply to a flawed hypothetical example to defend my position on a real world situation.

It's pointless. People still like to pretend that these European zionist Jews came to Palestine with candy and flowers. They kicked them (with help) of their land and then when the Palestinians got angry these crazy lunatics started committing genocide on the Palestinians. The Palestinians react and the whole world screams bloody murder.

It's the Zionist state that started this aggression, not the other way around. The Palestinians have every right to defend themselves.

 

[Danoff]

I also agree with @Danoff that from a moral/logical standpoint in that I don't think the IDF are unjustified in their actions. I'm skeptical about how prudent their actions are but the aim of the rocket strikes is to indiscriminately kill Israelis and an Israeli response is justified.

Yup, an Israeli response is justified. That Israeli response isn't. That's why you can't take a side in this fight, neither side is in the right.

It's pointless. People still like to pretend that these European zionist Jews came to Palestine with candy and flowers.

They kicked them (with help) of their land

Yes... let's start there for some arbitrary reason.

 

[zzz_pt]

It sounds nice, but my mental image is of someone with their fingers in their ears.

I will take your irony into account when you present me with a reasonable argument about why shouldn't I be on the side of the palestinian people.

I never said I defend what Hamas is doing. They're being stupid by thinking that lunching rockets will get them anywhere.

But what Israel is doing is simply outrageous. I don't care what your mental image is.

Because the situation isn't as black and white as you think it is?

Do you know what is black and white? the numbers of innocent casualties. Israeli army doesn't care about the palestinians. They are shooting innocent people everyday without any explanation. Snipers bombing innocent people, bombing ambulances and hospitals for no reason, etc.

This isn't grey-ish. It's murder.

 

[Danoff]

I will take your irony into account when you present me with a reasonable argument about why shouldn't I be on the side of the palestinian people.

Interesting starting position you have. I've already explained to you why morally you can't take a side (they've both forfeited rights). The rest is yours.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Do you know what is black and white? the numbers of innocent casualties. Israeli army doesn't care about the palestinians. They are shooting innocent people everyday without any explanation. Snipers bombing innocent people, bombing ambulances and hospitals for no reason, etc.

This isn't grey-ish. It's murder.

Yes.

But so is firing rockets into civilian Israeli settlements.

What I think @Danoff is saying (in fact what he's said very clearly) is that a response is justified, that response isn't.

You go back a very long way when you search for the source of troubles in that area, a very long way indeed. The situation now seems nigh-on-unsolvable.

Does that make Israel right? I think not, absolutely not. For once it seems that the more general consensus is also turning against Israel, perhaps as a function of the prevalence of social media across the Middle East.

 

[Danoff]

What I think @Danoff is saying (in fact what he's said very clearly) is that a response is justified, that response isn't.

That's usually the case with Israel.

 

[Dotini]

neither side is in the right.

Israel is in the right, simply because it is the superior, controlling legitimate state involved. "Palestine" isn't a state at all, but a hapless enclave of enfeebled refugees, striking out at the hand of those who usurped their old lands.

The modern state of Israel is a towering example of the eternal truth that might makes right and the ends justify the means.

 

[Danoff]

[/Dotini's sarcasm]

 

[Dotini]

An uncomfortable kernel of truth.

 

[zzz_pt]

What I think @Danoff is saying (in fact what he's said very clearly) is that a response is justified, that response isn't.

That's the problem. I never said Israel should be quiet and do nothing. I've stated that I'm with the innocent palestinian civilians and I've condemned the israeli response.

 

[BobK]

That video can very well be made up.

See how that works?

It sounds nice, but my mental image is of someone with their fingers in their ears.

... along with chanting "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up".

 

[zzz_pt]

See how that works?


... along with chanting "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up".

I'm all ears. Bring them on. And try to add something to the discussion.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

It sounds nice, but my mental image is of someone with their fingers in their ears.

That's usually his case.

 

[Crispy]

This proves some of Israel's claims.

 

[Johnnypenso]

That's the problem. I never said Israel should be quiet and do nothing. I've stated that I'm with the innocent palestinian civilians and I've condemned the israeli response.

What should the Israeli's do then?

 

[Doodle]

but I really do hope that ISIS knock at Israel door and slaughter the crap out of Israel government.

NO.

 

[LeMansAid]

"Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up".

Snow Patrol lyrics - "It's hard to argue when you won't stop making sense"

 

[Chrunch Houston]

Israel has agreed to a cease fire, it is Hamas that has not.

You guys can root for the underdog all you want. It is not Israel's fault that Hams sucks at waging war.

You would think that someone so out gunned and so impotent would want a cease fire. What are they suicidal or something?

Oh wait...

 

[VolkswagenX]

Israel has agreed to a cease fire, it is Hamas that has not.

You guys can root for the underdog all you want. It is not Israel's fault that Hams sucks at waging war.

You would think that someone so out gunned and so impotent would want a cease fire. What are they suicidal or something?

Oh wait...

This is fiction.

1: the zionist apartheid state never informed Hamas (aka the usefull idiots) about the ceasefire and then claim Hamas refused before they even found out about the ceasefire.

2. A ceasefire in this case would mean that only the Palestinians would have to put down their weapons.

 

[FoRiZon]

What should the Israeli's do then?

Like, I dont know, raid Hamas HQ instead of unleashing attack and hate toward all palestinians. For a military with the biggest budget I expected to be a lot more tactical, not raging fury.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

This is fiction.

1: the zionist apartheid state never informed Hamas (aka the usefull idiots) about the ceasefire and then claim Hamas refused before they even found out about the ceasefire.

Wow such unbiased language.

http://time.com/3017187/israel-gaza-idf-70-targets/

Kerry called on Hamas to accept a cease-fire framework tabled by Egyptian authorities earlier this month.

“Israel has accepted that cease-fire proposal,” said Kerry, who landed in Egypt on Monday after being dispatched to the region by President Barack Obama on Sunday night. “So only Hamas now needs to make the decision to spare innocent civilians from this violence.”
Kerry called on Hamas to accept a cease-fire framework tabled by Egyptian authorities earlier this month.

“Israel has accepted that cease-fire proposal,” said Kerry, who landed in Egypt on Monday after being dispatched to the region by President Barack Obama on Sunday night. “So only Hamas now needs to make the decision to spare innocent civilians from this violence.”

2. A ceasefire in this case would mean that only the Palestinians would have to put down their weapons.

Do you know what a cease fire means? No one lays down their weapons, they just don't shoot at each other.

 

[VolkswagenX]

Wow such unbiased language.

http://time.com/3017187/israel-gaza-idf-70-targets/

Lol talk about unbiased language... Non of that has anything to do with what I said. The ceasefire was never proposed to Hamas. I don't care about Kerry's biased opinion.

Do you know what a cease fire means? No one lays down their weapons, they just don't shoot at each other.

Yeah lets all pretend to not know what I ment and act as if the ceasefire proposal is fair and balanced. But I will change my words for you.

Ceasefire in this case means that only the Palestinians don't shoot.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

...Ceasefire in this case means that only the Palestinians don't shoot.

Why do you say that. What is your source?

When has a cease fire ever only been one sided?

 

[zzz_pt]

That's usually his case.

Do you remember telling me to read the "guns" thread to be more aware of what I was saying? Now I'm telling you and Danoff the same. How can a person that refuses to open his eyes to reality say that someone is with his fingers in his ears? Go and read, open and watch the info in this thread and then tell me that I'm wrong by supporting the palestinian people.

What should the Israeli's do then?

I won't say what Israel should do but I know what they shouldn't be doing. Killing and targeting innocent people. There are plenty of examples already in this thread of people being shot for no reason. Meanwhile in Israel we see a propaganda machine and people cheering with explosions and mass murder.

Why do you say that. What is your source?

When has a cease fire ever only been one sided?

Do you know how palestinians live everyday? Here's a clue:



They want a "ceasefire" from Hamas but they continue to opress the palestinians in their own land. Not to mention the illegal wall that celebrates its 10th aniversary this year.

“There will be a ceasefire, then there will be a period of calm,” he said in an interview with BBC Radio Leeds about the latest Israeli onslaught on Gaza, adding, “But during that period of calm when hopefully people are not being murdered, there will still be Palestinians who are being shot by the Israeli forces, they will still be beaten up, there will still be child detentions, that to the Israelis is peace.”

Israel is in the right, simply because it is the superior, controlling legitimate state involved. "Palestine" isn't a state at all, but a hapless enclave of enfeebled refugees, striking out at the hand of those who usurped their old lands.

The modern state of Israel is a towering example of the eternal truth that might makes right and the ends justify the means.

Palestine isn't a state like Israel wasn't a state until 1948. So what? Do you know why Israel is a state and Palestine isn't? Because the partition in 1948 favoured the zionists (Thanks to Britain and UN). 53% of land to 700.000 people and 47% to 1.4Million. Would you accept that if you were a palestinian? Thousands of palestinians, living in peace with jews, were forced to leave their houses, their lands, their life so the jews could take it all. They weren't "enfeebled refugees". They were normal people living their lives.
Their old lands? Can you share some evidence of that? The bible doesn't count BTW.


I think this is a good video from a person who lived this conflit in 1st person. His parents were highly involved in the occupation of palestinian land and they also lived that time in 1st person.

 

[DK]

I can't help but think about the IRA's bombing campaign in Britain thanks to a poster on another forum of which I'm a member.

The IRA actively targeted the British government, even going so far as to bomb a hotel in Brighton during a Conservative Party conference in 1984, killing five people, including two high-ranking members of Thatcher's government. Thatcher herself escaped, but guess what she DIDN'T do? She didn't bomb predominately Irish nationalist areas in Northern Ireland, she didn't send a warship to blow up Irish kids on a beach and she didn't set up blockades around predominately Irish nationalist areas in Northern Ireland.

The solution is not bombing the Palestinians into submission, it's finding peace. As long as the Gaza Strip is choked off from the rest of the world, some Gazans will be desperate enough to support Hamas and to fight for Hamas. I am no fan of Hamas, but I can see that desperate people will use desperate measures.

Oh, and for those who deny that Israel is an apartheid state: http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-2013

 

[Carbonox]

When has a cease fire ever only been one sided?

In Ukraine. I suppose we don't even have to guess which side refused to cease fire back there.

 

[mr_geez]

Yes, besides mr_geez is one cool dude

But anyway ... what's the problem with the dates mr_geez? What dates do you think would give us a clearer idea about what happened there?

Hey MCP!

My problem with the dates on that map is that it shows expansion of Israeli land without any context.

1947 - Resolution 181 - it's natural that Israeli presence will be much bigger than before (I would still dispute that previous map is not conclusive since there were major fights in the region which involved no only Jews and Palestinians but also British people, so it is very hard to say that it was Palestinian land since the situation was very fluid)

1967 - Six Day War - after Suez Conflict in 1956 where Israel also occupied Gaza Strip for short time, but withdrew with restoring All Palestinian Government (which was basically overthrown by Egyptian Army shortly after). In theory that situation restored the 1947 UN agreement (it doesn't matter now if it was correct or wrong decision, that just was new world order after WW2 , I know something about it because my country changed shape quite drastically after Yalta Conference, but I digress). Now we get to 1967 where in one of the dumbest strategic decisions of all time, General Nasser decided (with help of very "reliable" soviet intel and few other Arab nations) that it was good time to attack Israel and wipe them out of the face of the earth (I have a weird feeling that the Palestinians wouldn't have been really beneficent from Egypt victory). Unfortunately for them they were wrong and got absolutely destroyed and not only failed to invade Israel but also lost many strategic places like Gaza Strip , West Bank of Jordan River and Golan Heights that were under Arab jurisdiction before the war. It's hard for me to criticize Israel for seizing that land considering the geopolitical climate of the 60's in the region and in the world (famous arab summit after the war with peaceful message: "no peace, no recognition and no negotiation with Israel"). Plus new influx of jewish people after the six day war (many from eastern block where anti jewish propaganda and repressions where at it's highest in 1968) meant that they need more land to live, so considering what happened after Suez Crisis and Arab Summit, Israel decided that in their best interest (I think it is hard to blame them for that thinking) is to stay in all those places. The rest is history.

All I want to say is that it is not black and white. It's mainly gunmetal gray.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I won't say what Israel should do but I know what they shouldn't be doing. Killing and targeting innocent people. There are plenty of examples already in this thread of people being shot for no reason. Meanwhile in Israel we see a propaganda machine and people cheering with explosions and mass murder.

Isn't that what the Palestinians do, try to target and kill innocent people with hundreds of rockets?

Like, I dont know, raid Hamas HQ instead of unleashing attack and hate toward all palestinians. For a military with the biggest budget I expected to be a lot more tactical, not raging fury.

Do they have an HQ? Is that where the weapons are? If this is a possibility why wouldn't they be doing this already? Why would they deliberately avoid this?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Isn't that what the Palestinians do, try to target and kill innocent people with hundreds of rockets?

Indeed it is, just as the Israelis do in return with high-tech tanks, satellites, fighter-bombers and sniper-rifles backed up with an unlimited arms budget.

Do they have an HQ? Is that where the weapons are? If this is a possibility why wouldn't they be doing this already? Why would they deliberately avoid this?

Read back through the thread for a number of opinions on why Israel are acting the way they are, also check history.

The situation isn't easily solvable in the long term, as far as Palestine are concerned Israel was visited upon them in 1947, as far as Israel are concerned the Palestinians have constantly denied them the right to take a place in their literal and spiritual homeland.

The problem is that Israel's response is very imbalanced, almost spaceman-vs-savage. And I don't care how peaceful or evil any given parent is, seeing the bodies of little kids smashed to pieces in their own bedrooms... well, it's impossible to justify that just once. It's happening daily in Palestinian homes.

Here's how the fight looks to me;