How do you feel about Israel?

  • Thread starter Poverty
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No-one in this thread, other than you, has mentioned Muslims. So you can pack that one away for a start.


I'm asking what it is that the Palestinians are fighting for. They own land they never had before (unlike Aborigines/Indians). They have a country they never had before (unlike Aborigines/Indians). They have the power to elect their leaders and have those leaders recognised by other parliaments around the world (unlike Aborigines/Indians). They are not an oppressed people. Why are they intent on killing Israelis - and why do they target regular people?
 
You're absolutely killing me. Would you please respond to this Poverty.
Poverty
And for how many decades have the jews been pressuring and oppressing the Israelis?

What are you talking about?
 
Whoa whoa whoa, hold on a second Poverty. You talk about American Indians like you know them. I'm an eighth Naitive American, part of the Chippewa tribe of Michigan. Our land was indeed taken from us, and we have indeed fought back duing the expansion years of the 19th century against our American overlords, but nothing was ever to the extent of what is going on in the Middle East. Most of the fighting was done by the more extreme tribes of the west, and even then it was a minority of Naitives that attacked American settlers and millitary troops.

...Yes, it's sad what happened in the US, but I'm okay with it.
 
Famine
No-one in this thread, other than you, has mentioned Muslims. So you can pack that one away for a start.


not poverty
Israel is digging itself into a deep s#*! hole. just about every radical muslim hates israel.

I'm asking what it is that the Palestinians are fighting for. They own land they never had before (unlike Aborigines/Indians). They have a country they never had before (unlike Aborigines/Indians). They have the power to elect their leaders and have those leaders recognised by other parliaments around the world (unlike Aborigines/Indians). They are not an oppressed people. Why are they intent on killing Israelis - and why do they target regular people?

Im going to have to do some research on this one.
 
YSSMAN
...Yes, it's sad what happened in the US, but I'm okay with it.

I'm not native American and I'm not OK with it.

But As Famine has pointed out, it's not event he same situation. Palistine is established, maybe not exactly how they want it but it's something. Can you show me the native American "state"? Nope...
 
YSSMAN
Whoa whoa whoa, hold on a second Poverty. You talk about American Indians like you know them. I'm an eighth Naitive American, part of the Chippewa tribe of Michigan.
...Yes, it's sad what happened in the US, but I'm okay with it.

My grand father is mean to be half native american. I believe he fought in the second world war.for the US allies, I have never met him but the US government wont recognise my mother as American.

What are you talking about?

I will get onto it.
 
Well, I'm not completely okay with what happened with everything, but given that my family/tribe was not targeted directly by the Jackson administration and we were not forced to leave our land, I can't be too upset about something that didn't effect us.

...But what happened to the others was very bad indeed.
 
Very simply put (please correct me if I'm wrong!), Palestinians keep provoking Israel on and on, cause they don't want them there, so Israel attacks Palestine. I actually don't see no other end to these conflicts than a direct war between the two or any other big blow (not referring to a nuke!) of any kind.
I do understand Isreal though, and I don't get Palestine. Why can't they just live with what they have, instead of putting everything they have into annoying Israel? For me, it seems that it has become the point of life for some Palestinians to get rid of Israel and the Jews. As an obvious and predictable result, they fight back. I don't see in which way the Israelis are to blame for attacking the Palestinian areas.

Oh, and war always is cruel, and always generates collateral damage. It's not like Israel invented that to pi** off the Palestinians.

Regards
the Interceptor
 
Going by the post above I must come to the conclusion that we are getting fed very different stories of the ongoing events.
 
Well, I've always wanted to get into this, and I remember I have tried before. I kept on forgetting though (I know I shouldn't), so I just refreshed my information about the subject on Wikipedia. I know it's not a bulletproof source of info, and there actually were some parts marked as being not completely right, but in general, the facts were there.

Reading them, I came to my very simplified conclusion I recently posted. As stated, I'd be very happy to be corrected if I missed or misinterpretated anything, or if I'm just plain wrong. I'm not saying that war is good, nor do I like to hear that Israel attacks schools and similar facilities. Additionally, I generalised the concerning crowds to be the "the Israelis" and "the Palestinians", which shouldn't be done.

Anyway, I think I'm getting the major points of what's going on, and therefor, I must say I understand why "the Israelis" attacked "the Palestinians".

Regards
the Interceptor
 
Yeah thats fair enough, I however will be avoiding the likes of wikipedia this time (I love wiki) and the internet for my information, because they could very well be biased or propaganda etc.
 
Poverty
Yeah thats fair enough, I however will be avoiding the likesof wikipedia and the internet for my information, because they could very well be biased or propaganda etc.
I accept that, but I have discovered that people are very eager to correct false or badly written articles on Wikipedia, at least on on the German one. So I think pretty much everything I read was real information, and not just onesided propaganda.

(Warning! The following informations are generalised very roughly and might not be 100% accurate)

I actually had to climb though different articles and periods of time to get to the start of all things:
the Jews were attacked and exiled out of their country about 500 b.c.. They were "sprayed" all over the world, but still, they always considered todays Israel as their home, cause they had already lived there for centuries. Therefor, they kept going there within hundreds of years to live in peace in their "holy land". The Arabs living there and around didn't particularly like that, and they actually attacked Israel the moment it was founded in Palestine in 1948, which also initiated a huge movement of the Jewish into their newly founded country. The attacks were not successful though, so Israel kept existing until today. Unfortunately, the Palestines (there's the generalisation again, sorry!) kept and keep attacking the Jews of Israel, cause they claim that their land was taken from them.

Regards
the Interceptor
 
i guess this is all propaganda

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The Palestinian Jews were forced to form an organized defense against the Arabs Palestinians.... thus was formed the Hagana, the beginnings of the Israeli Defense Forces [IDF]. There was also a Jewish underground called the Irgun led by Menachem Begin (who later became Prime Minister of Israel). Besides fighting the Arabs, the Irgun was instrumental in driving out the pro-Arab British. Finally in 1947 the British had enough and turned the Palestine matter over to the United Nations.
The 1947 U.N. Resolution 181 partition plan was to divide the remaining 25% of Palestine into a Jewish Palestinian State and a SECOND Arab Palestinian State (Trans-Jordan being the first) based upon population concentrations. The Jewish Palestinians accepted... the Arab Palestinians rejected. The Arabs still wanted ALL of Palestine... both east AND west of the Jordan River.

Our Palestinian Cousins started the '48 war, and in so doing released the warlike appetites of a nation of survivors, a people with no place to run, who had repressed their rage for millennia, and had now earned full title to it!

On May 14, 1948 the "Palestinian" Jews finally declared their own State of Israel and became "Israelis." On the next day, seven neighboring Arab armies... Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Yemen... invaded Israel. Most of the Arabs living within the boundaries of the newly declared "ISRAEL" were encouraged to leave by the invading Arab armies to facilitate the slaughter of the Jews and were promised to be given all Jewish property after the victorious Arab armies won the war. The truth is that 70% of the Arab Palestinians who left in 1948 – perhaps 300,000 to 400,000 of them – never saw an Israeli soldier! They did not flee because they feared Jewish thugs, but because of a rational and reasonable calculus: the Jews will be exterminated; we will get out of the way while that messy and dangerous business goes forward, and we will return afterwards to reclaim our homes, and to inherit those nice Jewish properties as well. They guessed wrong; and the Arab Palestinians are still tortured by the residual shame of their flight. Their shame is so great because in their eyes running from Jews was like running from women. So much for the blatant lie about Jews throwing out all the [Palestinian] Arabs!

The remaining 30% either (1) saw for themselves that these Jews would fight and die for their new nation and decided to pack up and leave or (2) were driven off the land as a normal consequence of war.

When the 19 month war ended, Israel survived despite a 1% loss of its entire population! Those Arabs who did not flee became today's Israeli-Arab citizens. Those who fled became the seeds of the first wave of "Palestinian Arab refugees."

The Arab propagandists and apologists almost never mentioned that in 1948, Arab armies launched a war against a one-day-old Israel. Instead he focused on the main consequence of that war: the creation of Arab refugees, stating that Israel "short of genocide" expelled 800,000 of them. This not only disagrees with UN estimates of a bit over 400,000 refugees but also ignores the fact that most of the Arabs/Palestinians were encouraged to leave by the Arab World itself!




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and this

The end result of the 1948-49 Israeli War of Independence was the creation of a Jewish State slightly larger than that which was proposed by the 1947 United Nations Resolution 181. What remained of that almost-created second Arab Palestinian State was gobbled up by (1) Egypt (occupying the Gaza Strip) and by (2) Trans-Jordan (occupying Judea-Samaria (a.k.a. the "West Bank" of the Jordan River) and Jerusalem. In the next year (1950) Trans-Jordan formally merged this West Bank territory into itself and granted all those "Palestinian" Arabs living there Jordanian citizenship. Since Trans-Jordan was then no longer confined to one side of the Jordan River, it renamed itself simply "Jordan." In the final analysis, the Arabs of Palestine ended up with nearly 85% of the original territory of Palestine... called Jordan but in reality their ARAB "Palestinian state! But that was still not 100% and thus the conflict between Arab and Jew for "Palestine" would continue through four more wars and continuous Arab terrorist attacks upon the Israeli citizenry. It continues to this very day.
From 1949-67 when all of Judea-Samaria [West Bank & Jerusalem] and Gaza ... were 100% under Arab [Jordanian & Egyptian] control, no effort was EVER made to create a second Palestinian State for the Arabs living there. Surely you do not expect Israel to now provide these same Arabs with their own country when their fellow Arabs failed to do so! And isn't it curious how Arafat and his PLO (formed in 1964) discovered their "ancient" identity and a need for "self-determination" and "human dignity" on this very same West Bank ONLY AFTER Israel regained this territory (three years later in 1967) following Jordan's attempt attempt to destroy Israel! Why was no request ever made upon King Hussein of Jordan by the Arabs living on the West Bank when he occupied it? Is it logical that the PLO was formed in 1964 to regain the lands they would lose three years later in 1967? This sort of logic makes sense only to those who who have not learned that the PLO was formed to DESTROY Israel. And that is STILL their goal! A cosmetic name change from PLO (Palestine Liberation Organization) to PA (Palestinian Authority) does not change the stripes on THIS tiger!


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Throughout much of May 1967, the Egyptian, Jordanian and Syrian armies mobilized along Israel's narrow and seemingly indefensible borders in preparation for a massive invasion to eliminate the State of Israel. The battle cry heard throughout the Arab world was then, as it continues to be... "Slaughter the Jews" and "Throw the Jews into the Sea!" But the Jews of Israel, remembering 2,000 years of being butchered, gassed, burned and skinned (eg. The Crusades, The Spanish Inquisition, the Arab rampages of early Palestine and particularly the Holocaust), planned and executed a perfect pre-emptive strike against Egypt. Within two hours the Egyptian Air Force did not exist... most of its planes destroyed while still on the runways! Unaware that the Egyptians had no more air force, King Hussein of Jordan, launched his attack from the his West Bank into Israel's belly while Syrian troops prepared to descend down the Golan Heights high ground into northern Israel.

Now for some facts about "occupation." Firstly, the Egyptians, Jordanians and Syrians lost Gaza, the West Bank and Golan Heights (respectively) by participating in a failed attempt at genocide against the Children of Israel. Had Israel lost this 1967 defensive war, the Arab-Palestinians and their Arab allies would have raped, butchered or driven out every Israeli they could get their hands on and gobbled up all of Israel. Now, 35+ years later and despite the fact that Israel won a war BROUGHT UPON THEM, the Israelis are still willing to allow the Arab-Palestinians to have a state on much of the West Bank and Gaza if only they will stop sending their suicide/homicide bombers into the heart of Israel! (Talk about misplaced compassion!)

From 1948 to 1967, Egypt ruled Gaza, Syria ruled the Golan Heights, while Jordan ruled the West Bank. They could have set up independent Arab-Palestinian states in any or all of those territories, but they didn't even consider it. Instead, in 1967 they used the Golan Heights, Gaza and the West bank to launch a war that was unambiguously aimed at destroying Israel, which is how Israel came into possession of those territories in the first place.



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After ONLY six days of air, sea and hand-to-hand ground warfare, Israel defeated all three Arab armies along three separate fronts, taking control of the entire Sinai Desert from Egypt, the 37mile x 12mile Golan Heights from Syria and the West Bank (including East Jerusalem and its Old City) from Jordan. The God of Israel was surely watching over His children! Most importantly was the return to Israel of its holy 3,000 year old capital city of Jerusalem along the western edge of the West Bank... the same Jerusalem from which all Jews had been denied access for the 19 years (1948-1967) following Jordan's seizure and control over it following the first Arab-Israeli War of 1948-9.
Unfortunately, the world saw things differently and considered Israel an "occupier" of this disputed "West Bank" and the Gaza Strip along with the 850,000 Palestinian Arabs living there. These Arabs would refer to themselves as "refugees" and joined the masses of refugees from the first Arab-Israeli war of 1948-9. Once again Israel was forced to fight a battle for survival and, sadly, once again Palestinian [in reality, Jordanian and Egyptian] Arabs becoming refugees by their own actions, the actions of their leaders and from the actions of fellow Arabs from neighboring states!
ISRAEL SCREWS UP TOO!

Israel was responsible for bringing about some of its own problems. The Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza Strip were packed and ready to leave following their 1967 defeat. Suddenly the victorious one-eyed IDF General Moshe Dayan persuaded them to stay. This singular act stunned no one more than the Arab enemy himself who could not believe such an incredible manifestation of Jewish madness! After all, the Arabs knew what THEY would have done to the Jews if they had won! Dayan's plan was to educate them, offer them modern medical treatment, provide them with employment both in the West Bank, Gaza AND inside Israel Proper itself ... living amongst each other in hopes of building bridges to the Arab world. Israel is now paying dearly for this typically naive "Leftist" gesture. That "bridge" led to two Intifadas and world-wide Arab-Palestinian terrorism. From a frightened and defeated enemy, these "Palestinian" Arabs under Israel's jurisdiction turned into a confident, hateful and dangerous enemy now on their way toward forming a terrorist state determined to destroy Israel!


Note: When people say Jordan (first called Trans-Jordan) is an Arab-"Palestinian" State, they are correct! Jordan accounts for 3/4 of Palestine's original land mass. Though they may call themselves "Jordanians," they are culturally, ethnically, historically and religiously no different than the Arab-"Palestinians" on the "West Bank." Even the flag of Jordan and the flag of the proposed 2nd Arab-Palestinian state on the West Bank / Gaza look almost identical. So, if the Arab-Palestinians and Jordanians think of themselves as one and the same, why should WE fall for the lie that the Arab Palestinians west of the Jordan River are any different from the Jordanian Arabs on its eastern shore?


Jordanian Flag

Proposed Palestinian Flag






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Usually when one side starts a war and loses both the war AND some territory, no one on the planet would expect the winner to give back anything! This not only sounds preposterous, it IS preposterous! But the Jews (I hate to admit) had such an insane obsession of wanting the world to love them that they were willing to give back the entire Sinai Desert (oil fields, air bases and endless miles of security buffer) to Egypt for a piece of paper. Thus, in 1982 Egypt regained their Sinai and Israel lost a massive buffer against any future Egyptian aggression! Thus far, Egypt has not aggressed against Israel militarily; however, the basest, anti-Semitic vile to come out of Egypt is not unlike the worse of Nazi anti-Jewish propaganda! This 1982 Camp David Peace Accord has to be the coldest peace deal in history!
Israel still occupies Syria's Golan Heights which, prior to the 1967 war, had been by Syria used solely for terrorist incursions into and artillery bombardment upon Israel's northeastern settlements. The Golan should never be given back to Israel's most vicious enemy! And of course, Israel still "occupies" the West Bank with its ONE MILLION TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND and Gaza with its EIGHT HUNDRED THOUSAND "Palestinian" Arabs. Had Israel done to these Arabs what the Arabs would have done to the Jews had THEY won, she would have expelled these hostile Arabs and made it officially part of a Greater Israel! But by remaining an "occupier," Israel set herself up for a campaign of vicious propaganda, the scope and intensity of which the world has never before seen!



..

and go here for more propaganda..


http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html
 
Now some may see this as propaganda...but is it ?


More on "Palestinian Nationalism
and the
Real War Against Israel...

The Middle East war is not now and never was a conflict between Israelis/Jews on the one hand and Palestinians on the other. In fact, the Arab-"Palestinians", while currently the perpetrators of most of the anti-Jewish atrocities, were never a very important part of the conflict. In fact, before about 1970, virtually no one in the world considered the Middle East conflict to be one between Israelis and Palestinians.
The term "Palestinian" itself had referred to Israeli Jews back in the 1940s, and had been slowly deconstructed and redefined to refer to the Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza. The Middle East Conflict was always a war by Arabs against Jews, not a conflict between Israelis and "Palestinians." The war was repackaged as a conflict between Jews and Palestinians as a public relations gimmick by the Arab fascist regimes. These regimes had never had any interest in "Palestinians," in creating a "Palestinian" state, or in "Palestinian nationalism" before 1967. That is because Palestinian nationalism did not and DOES NOT exist. The Palestinians were a regional group of Arabs having virtually no cultural nor national distinctive traits separating them from Syrians, Lebanese, and Jordanians. They are all basically Arabs!.

The bulk of what are called "Palestinian Arabs" are members of families who migrated into the Land of Israel beginning in the late 19th century. Palestinian nationalism is a mislabeling of Arab nationalism. Arab nationalism exists, although it is closely bound up with Islamic nationalism and even Islamism. Palestinian nationalism, however, is a phantom. It is nothing more than genocidal hatred of Jews!

The Arab assaults and aggressions against Israel in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1968, and 1973 had nothing to do with Palestinians. The Palestinian terror campaign would itself be easy to suppress today and eradicate if the Middle East conflict were really a Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Israel would simply obliterate the terrorists and expel their supporters to Syria and Lebanon. The Middle East war continues because it is really an Arab-Israeli war, not an Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It is also in large part a war between barbarism and civilization. In many ways an Islamic religious jihad against the Jews.
 
Notice what happens to oil futures every time a threat is made..or a rocket gets fired...the Palestinians are being used..they had so many chances for peace but outside and inside forces will never allow it.

Before this is over oil will cost more than 100.00 a barell .
 
Imagine in a few centuries in the future if all the native Americans started a war against america, claiming they were all exiled/killed from their country by immigrants, and had the backing of the UN to take back all the land that was theirs. America would resist understandably, but in the end the land would belong to the native Americans and the remaining Americans would be forced to live in the west and abandom their homes. People would justify it saying that the native Americans had lived in the land before the immigrants, therefore it was entitled to them because they had been mistreated in the past.

What do you think the "immigrant" Americans would do, take this land in the west, with their elected, but ultimately powerless democratic government and live in depraved conditions set by the native Americans and not create a fuss????

Of course they wouldn't, yet this is what the Jews in Israel are allowed to get away with in their treatment of Palestinians, and people expect the Palestinians to not retaliate even after all these years.
 
KSaiyu, I don't think you have a full understanding of the history of that situation.
 
KSaiyu
Imagine in a few centuries in the future if all the native Americans started a war against america, claiming they were all exiled/killed from their country by immigrants, and had the backing of the UN to take back all the land that was theirs. America would resist understandably, but in the end the land would belong to the native Americans and the remaining Americans would be forced to live in the west and abandom their homes. People would justify it saying that the native Americans had lived in the land before the immigrants, therefore it was entitled to them because they had been mistreated in the past.

What do you think the "immigrant" Americans would do, take this land in the west, with their elected, but ultimately powerless democratic government and live in depraved conditions set by the native Americans and not create a fuss????

Of course they wouldn't, yet this is what the Jews in Israel are allowed to get away with in their treatment of Palestinians, and people expect the Palestinians to not retaliate even after all these years.

Wrong way round.

The native Americans are analogous to the "Palestinians" - native peoples with no recognisable legal claim on the land prior to the formation of a new country from an effectively ungoverned region.

Americans are analogous to the "Israelites" - immigrant peoples who claim the country as their own.


Now... imagine that Americans/Israelis had sailed over in 17-umpty-umpt/19-umpty-umpt, set up a new country with the permission of the territory's previous owners (England/England). In one situation - American - they killed every one of the natives they found. In the other - Israeli - they didn't and, instead, gave them 45% of all of the land, without any obligation to do so, and self-rule.

Which of the two "displaced" peoples should be pissed-off on an epic scale and want to slaughter the immigrants until there were none left? Which of the two "displaced" people isn't?
 
Poverty
maybe the arabs are pissed that israel got land of england which never really belonged to england?

To whom did it belong?
 
Arabs are pissed because they want the land of their father Abraham and the Jews have that land. Of course, it's a trip that they both have the same father as far as their religion goes. So they're having a huge family feud, really stupid and childish if you ask me.
 
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