Gaza round 189
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Joey D
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Guess the "we are only targeting military targets" line has gone out the window.
Source: http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/06/israel.gaza/index.html
The world really needs to condemn the actions of Israel now. Seriously ramming boats full of relief workers, including a former US representative, killing civilians, bombing elementary schools full of refugees...what's next?
CNN
Source: http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/06/israel.gaza/index.html
The world really needs to condemn the actions of Israel now. Seriously ramming boats full of relief workers, including a former US representative, killing civilians, bombing elementary schools full of refugees...what's next?
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Isn't it ironic how the oppressed have now become the oppressors?
As if a country with nuclear weapons was ever oppressed in the first place. That's all media propaganda BS. Even with Lebanon, the IDF has been the same killing machine.
It's so funny that to call out the Israeli government (not the people, of course) on what it really is has always been taboo in the past. Shame the people that were thought "crazy" before by the idiots will likely never have that image shed even though "crazy" turned out to be "correct".
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Not as ironic as your current avatar and title comboIsn't it ironic how the oppressed have now become the oppressors?
Don't expect President Obama to denounce Israel any time soon... However, I do agree that it is a tad ironic that Israel should find themselves on the other end of the boot and show such little empathy or compassion for the Palestinian people (and doubly ironic that they pretend that they are doing so).
That said, let's not kid ourselves and portray Hamas as poor, defenseless victims. Their decision to use the densely populated Gaza Strip as the launchpad for their assaults on Israel is as morally corrupt as anything Israel has ever done. Hamas know exactly who will win the propaganda battle - this is precisely why the rockets are still coming, despite 11 days of carnage and hundreds of Palestinian deaths. Writing in today's Guardian, Hamas spokesman Khalid Mish'al wrote:
This comment beggars belief... since when was indiscriminate murder of innocent civilians a legitimate form of protest? Perhaps if Hamas decided to stop talking in the language of violence and murder, they wouldn't get a reply in the same tongue.
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I've got some questions for you guys:
Metar: First of all, great to here you're OK 👍 But this has me wondering; How is the mood in Israel? Or even at your home or town? Do people speak a lot about it? Do you think the news puts it out of proportions, as in too many blaming Hamas for everything and saying they got served well? Also, are you and your family worried about the situation? As in, afraid of the action might be getting nearer to you?
On that, something else:
Has democracy failed in Pakistan? Hamas has been democratically chosen by the Palestinian people over the Fatah government. Hamas ended the truce between Pakistan and Israel after that. Do you think either of these facts can be a cause to the conflict between them now?
Also, seeing the conflict is running completely out of hand; Do you think the conflict is now not longer about the Gaza area? Do you think they're merely trying to destroy each other, rather than taking control over the Gaza area? As I said earlier, Hamas was chosen democratically. Now, when Adolf Hitler wrote "Mein Kampf" he expressed his hatred towards Jewish people, and his ideology of the perfect race, and his wish to see the German people stand back up "from the ashes". Obviously, Hitler couldn't complete his goals as long as he did not have the necessary power. After the depression in German, and Hitler was chosen, democratically, he now had the chance to start his war to realize his ideology. Is the same happening now with Hamas? Hamas' wish has for long been to see Israel destroyed, to see it bowing at their feet. Hamas has now been chosen democratically, are both countries, and especially the Gaza area, paying the prize for that now?
Metar: First of all, great to here you're OK 👍 But this has me wondering; How is the mood in Israel? Or even at your home or town? Do people speak a lot about it? Do you think the news puts it out of proportions, as in too many blaming Hamas for everything and saying they got served well? Also, are you and your family worried about the situation? As in, afraid of the action might be getting nearer to you?
On that, something else:
Has democracy failed in Pakistan? Hamas has been democratically chosen by the Palestinian people over the Fatah government. Hamas ended the truce between Pakistan and Israel after that. Do you think either of these facts can be a cause to the conflict between them now?
Also, seeing the conflict is running completely out of hand; Do you think the conflict is now not longer about the Gaza area? Do you think they're merely trying to destroy each other, rather than taking control over the Gaza area? As I said earlier, Hamas was chosen democratically. Now, when Adolf Hitler wrote "Mein Kampf" he expressed his hatred towards Jewish people, and his ideology of the perfect race, and his wish to see the German people stand back up "from the ashes". Obviously, Hitler couldn't complete his goals as long as he did not have the necessary power. After the depression in German, and Hitler was chosen, democratically, he now had the chance to start his war to realize his ideology. Is the same happening now with Hamas? Hamas' wish has for long been to see Israel destroyed, to see it bowing at their feet. Hamas has now been chosen democratically, are both countries, and especially the Gaza area, paying the prize for that now?
Keef
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I heard the author of these videos and his blog speaking about "Pallywood" this morning on Mike McConnell's radio show. I'll quickly post them, and when I'm back from work I'll see what you all have to say.
The guy speaking in the vids was the one on the radio. I can't be bothered to find his blog here during lunch time because I didn't catch his web address. Pallywood seems to be a pretty popular topic on Google though.
The guy speaking in the vids was the one on the radio. I can't be bothered to find his blog here during lunch time because I didn't catch his web address. Pallywood seems to be a pretty popular topic on Google though.
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magburner
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When I said oppressed, I was talking about what happened nearly 70 years ago. Thinking back to that period, you could even accuse the Israeli's of running Gaza Strip much like a Polish Ghetto - Absolutely disgraceful behaviour for a 'civilised' nation.
You also have to ask the question, why are Israel refusing international journalists access to the Gaza Strip? Maybe they don't want us to see what they are really doing perhaps? The government has already proven its ability to lie (ie. no humanitarian crisis, when clearly there is), so what else are they covering up?
Now, they are even targeting clearly marked UN buildings - incredible!
UN condemns attack on Gaza school (BBC News Video)
A short excerpt from the video (taken from 0.50 onwards):
BBC News: In terms of the school itself, the building, I mean, is it marked at all? Is it identified as a school, as a UN building?
John Ging (UN): ABSOLUTELY, ABSOLUTELY! We have provided the GPS co-ordinates of every single one of our locations. They are clearly marked, with UN insignia, flags flying, lights shining on the flags at night, and so on. It is very clear that these are United Nations installations.
The UN is now calling for accountability under the Geneva Convention for Israel (and Hamas of course).
Not as ironic as your current avatar and title combo
So you noticed it then?
Maybe I was saying something about the duality of the situation, then again, I might of been saying nothing at all...
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One of three mobile hospitals sent by a Danish Christian charity to help injured civilians in Gaza, destroyed by the Israeli army.
One way of winning a war is to stop healing of the enemy, but who is the enemy?
That attack on that school was pure barbarism.
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Frankly, I agree. Quite a few of the Israeli army's actions can be considered war-crimes. They used cluster-bombs on Lebanese populations, they shot into peaceful demonstrations, they shot reporters and shot at ambulances, the UN and the Red Cross, schools and hospitals, dropped bombs weighing one tonne on densely populated areas and shot expanding bullets (Dum-dums) into protesters. Sadly, while terrorist forces have been attacking Israel for the past few years, I can't say any better about the forces "defending" us from those - they're terrorists as well, but official ones.
Remember, the nuclear weapons are "inofficial". It's a taboo, and they still censor newpapers that attempt to publish anything dealing with them.
Indeed. Apart from the very first war of 1948, the "Independence War" which formed the country, Israel wasn't under a real threat to it's existence. The 1973 war of Yom Kippur might've been, but it ended up yet another victory, albeit with higher casualties.
Yep, he had to promise all sorts of stuff to the Jewish lobbyists in the US in order to get their vote...
A common argument used by the right-wing debaters is the "How could you call us fascists and terrorists? We're the ones being terrorized upon, and oh remember the holocaust!". Apparently, having suffered from genocide gives you free credits as far as war-crimes are concerned.
Their home-made rockets are a joke as far as modern technology is concerned (they simply lack it) - but their basic design also makes them impossible to intercept, and difficult to trace in the first place. Mostly, a rocket is identified just 20-30 seconds before it hits the target...
At the same time, however, it's not like there are any unpopulated areas in the Gaza strip. It's a very, very narrow strip containing 1.5 million citizens - one of the densest areas in the world. At at the same time, just two kilometers away from my own house, between a shopping-mall and skyscrapers on one side and museums and the national orchestra's hall on the other, are the Israeli Army's HQ. Following the IDF's logic, Hamas bombing Tel Aviv would appear justified, considering "they are aiming at military targets". Half the Israeli army is located in or near populated areas.
I have absolutely no support for the Hamas as a military organization (as a firm believer in pacifism, I have no support for any military organization or use of violence whatsoever) - but they offered to start talks in the past two days, offering to cease the violence and even give up their place as leading party, a place they earned in a democratic election, in favour of the pre-election arrangement of a European-watched committee of Fatah and Hamas rule. These offers, however, were repelled by our PM and his Minister of Defense, with the unbelievable reply: "I've looked the mother's in their eyes and promised them that we're here to end this" - he's going to pull them into yet another hopelessly long war.
Israeli forces (and I think the US army is affected here, too) appear to miss the fact that to a rebellious guerrilla army, a 1:10 casualty ratio is good enough. Pulling into a door-to-door combat environment will never work.
Here in Tel Aviv, things are alright. Mixed feelings here, though: On the one hand, there weren't rockets anywhere near this city, so it's pretty much a distant threat. On the other hand, we're 17-18 by now in my class, and next year almost all of us will have to enlist, so it's a pretty important topic. Many also have family-members in the army on standby, as well. The whole country, however, is surrounded by the typical "wargasm" that comes up every time there's a war, and protesting the war becomes treason to most of them. During the demonstration I was in, there were those waving Israeli flags and calling us traitors - one of them even managed to break into the demonstration, and gave the professor who guided me on a university paper a broken nose.
As for democracy failing? Perhaps, but it seems more like the fault of others that it did. Specifically, Fatah, Israel, the US, and the European Union. After forcing the Palestinians into democracy, they voted against the corrupt organization that ruled it for so long (Fatah, under Arafat's and then Abass' rule) in favour of the Hamas - but then, said choice was effectively unrecognized by the international community, leaving the Fatah free to take control. The two organizations fought rather violently against each other, and ultimately, the Hamas gained control of the Gaza strip (Fatah holds most of the west bank, but that one's still directly occupied).
As for the truce, the previous one was officially canceled by the Israeli government after the Hamas was elected, but there wasn't much violence until the Lebanon war (which included a dive into Gaza in an attempt to find the kidnapped soldier, Gil'ad Shalit). I don't remember how it was shortly afterwards, but the truce that the Hamas "broke" was signed just over six months ago - and the Hamas complied with it. They ceased all rocket-fire, and deployed forces to stop other organizations from firing rockets, as well. Later on came the Israeli strike that triggered the current war.
Remember, the nuclear weapons are "inofficial". It's a taboo, and they still censor newpapers that attempt to publish anything dealing with them.
Indeed. Apart from the very first war of 1948, the "Independence War" which formed the country, Israel wasn't under a real threat to it's existence. The 1973 war of Yom Kippur might've been, but it ended up yet another victory, albeit with higher casualties.
Not as ironic as your current avatar and title combo
Yep, he had to promise all sorts of stuff to the Jewish lobbyists in the US in order to get their vote...
A common argument used by the right-wing debaters is the "How could you call us fascists and terrorists? We're the ones being terrorized upon, and oh remember the holocaust!". Apparently, having suffered from genocide gives you free credits as far as war-crimes are concerned.
Their home-made rockets are a joke as far as modern technology is concerned (they simply lack it) - but their basic design also makes them impossible to intercept, and difficult to trace in the first place. Mostly, a rocket is identified just 20-30 seconds before it hits the target...
At the same time, however, it's not like there are any unpopulated areas in the Gaza strip. It's a very, very narrow strip containing 1.5 million citizens - one of the densest areas in the world. At at the same time, just two kilometers away from my own house, between a shopping-mall and skyscrapers on one side and museums and the national orchestra's hall on the other, are the Israeli Army's HQ. Following the IDF's logic, Hamas bombing Tel Aviv would appear justified, considering "they are aiming at military targets". Half the Israeli army is located in or near populated areas.
I have absolutely no support for the Hamas as a military organization (as a firm believer in pacifism, I have no support for any military organization or use of violence whatsoever) - but they offered to start talks in the past two days, offering to cease the violence and even give up their place as leading party, a place they earned in a democratic election, in favour of the pre-election arrangement of a European-watched committee of Fatah and Hamas rule. These offers, however, were repelled by our PM and his Minister of Defense, with the unbelievable reply: "I've looked the mother's in their eyes and promised them that we're here to end this" - he's going to pull them into yet another hopelessly long war.
Israeli forces (and I think the US army is affected here, too) appear to miss the fact that to a rebellious guerrilla army, a 1:10 casualty ratio is good enough. Pulling into a door-to-door combat environment will never work.
Here in Tel Aviv, things are alright. Mixed feelings here, though: On the one hand, there weren't rockets anywhere near this city, so it's pretty much a distant threat. On the other hand, we're 17-18 by now in my class, and next year almost all of us will have to enlist, so it's a pretty important topic. Many also have family-members in the army on standby, as well. The whole country, however, is surrounded by the typical "wargasm" that comes up every time there's a war, and protesting the war becomes treason to most of them. During the demonstration I was in, there were those waving Israeli flags and calling us traitors - one of them even managed to break into the demonstration, and gave the professor who guided me on a university paper a broken nose.
As for democracy failing? Perhaps, but it seems more like the fault of others that it did. Specifically, Fatah, Israel, the US, and the European Union. After forcing the Palestinians into democracy, they voted against the corrupt organization that ruled it for so long (Fatah, under Arafat's and then Abass' rule) in favour of the Hamas - but then, said choice was effectively unrecognized by the international community, leaving the Fatah free to take control. The two organizations fought rather violently against each other, and ultimately, the Hamas gained control of the Gaza strip (Fatah holds most of the west bank, but that one's still directly occupied).
As for the truce, the previous one was officially canceled by the Israeli government after the Hamas was elected, but there wasn't much violence until the Lebanon war (which included a dive into Gaza in an attempt to find the kidnapped soldier, Gil'ad Shalit). I don't remember how it was shortly afterwards, but the truce that the Hamas "broke" was signed just over six months ago - and the Hamas complied with it. They ceased all rocket-fire, and deployed forces to stop other organizations from firing rockets, as well. Later on came the Israeli strike that triggered the current war.
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Does anyone in the US have the ads running for them that are asking to donate money to the Israeli relief effort(s)? They had some running this afternoon and this evening, and truth be told, I was just a tad angry that they had the audacity to ask us for money when they're not the ones who need the most help.
Tisk. Tisk.
Tisk. Tisk.
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A site like this? Otherwise, I haven't seen anything yet. Probably it will come on at night.
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Hi Metar,
Thank you for providing us with your opinion, i really appreciate that (since i agree with almost everything you said (being a pacifist too
)
Still, it's always refreshing to hear from people that are actually dragged into this mess.
Peace.
Thank you for providing us with your opinion, i really appreciate that (since i agree with almost everything you said (being a pacifist too
)Still, it's always refreshing to hear from people that are actually dragged into this mess.
Peace.
Keef
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I am under the impression that both sides of this conflict are wrong, but I think Hamas and the Palestinian people are more wrong. None of you seemed to watch or comment on the videos I posted clearly slowing Palestinian police, military, and civilians staging all propaganda which was turned into news and shown around the world back in 2000. The Palestinians were given sympathy they absolutely did not deserve. They have been repeatedly told to stop bothering Israel, and they refuse to stop. One day soon Israel is going to stop taking their childish crap and blow the Strip away.
And this cease-fire everyone wants is lame. All a cease-fire will do is prolong the conflict as tensions boil while nothing is being done about the situation. The only way to stop the conflict is for one side to have a total victory--to cripple the other side to the point where they surrender. Wars don't end with a cease-fire, and it's simple as that.
And this cease-fire everyone wants is lame. All a cease-fire will do is prolong the conflict as tensions boil while nothing is being done about the situation. The only way to stop the conflict is for one side to have a total victory--to cripple the other side to the point where they surrender. Wars don't end with a cease-fire, and it's simple as that.
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Keef, may I ask in what sort of a world you live in? Wars don't end in cease-fires, since when? There is another way, always was and always will be.
As for the videos, I don't have the time to watch them now - but the events that triggered the Intifada in 2008 were definitely not "show" and propaganda.
As for the videos, I don't have the time to watch them now - but the events that triggered the Intifada in 2008 were definitely not "show" and propaganda.
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I think you're missing the point royally here... The Palestinians have as much a right to statehood as Israelis. If Israel were to reoccupy Gaza (let alone all of Palestine) then their problems will only intensify, not vanish. Do you honestly think that destroying Gaza and forcing 1.5 million people out (to where exactly?) will result in a more peaceful future for Israel...??
Israel cannot achieve "total victory" against the Palestinians. Even the United States recognise that full Palestinian statehood is the only long-term solution - with the proviso that any Palestinian state recognises Israel's right to exist (something that Hamas won't do, but Fatah are ready to). The challenge is finding a way for the two states to peacefully co-exist, not for one to destroy the other.
Keef
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You're going to have trouble getting the Palestinians to recognize Israel and vice versa, because Hamas is a terrorist organization with the majority rule over the Palestinians. Seems to me like they would be granting statehood to the terrorists. I think the bottom line here is that Hamas wants to kill the Jews and they're not going to stop trying until they do. What exactly is to be done about that?
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So, Keef, you think that past attempts at political access through "staged cinema" void the fact that they are now getting slaughtered or something?
Keef, you need to stop drinking that koolaid. I don't know who puts that stuff in your head, anyway.
To me, the solution is an abandonment of the Israeli/Palestinian state. Let the people organize their own city states based on where everyone's living now.
Keef, you need to stop drinking that koolaid. I don't know who puts that stuff in your head, anyway.
To me, the solution is an abandonment of the Israeli/Palestinian state. Let the people organize their own city states based on where everyone's living now.
boiltheocean
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Israel are amazing I mean a 67:1 K/D ratio is amazing for Call Of Duty, oh no wait this is a proper war. Israel have taken it a little far I think.
magburner
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That's a little conservative, its closer to 100:1 K/D ratio. If we discount the 4 soldiers that were killed by friendly fire, the figure is even higher - around 228:1...
I also just saw on BBC News that Israel admitted that they WERE NOT fired upon by terrorists from the school they shelled, even though initially they said they were. On top of that (and as the UN had insisted all along), there were no dead bodies of militants in the school either.
boiltheocean
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magburner
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My figures were an amalgamation of two sets of figures. Principally I used the figures from the BBC, but since they didn't state how many soldiers had been killed, I look at an article on Reuters, which did state. I will admit the 228:1 was a slight distortion of the truth, because I did not take into account the number of Israeli civilians killed. My apologies for that. 👍
BBC article: (Israel accepts truce principles.)
This was taken from the section below the video, near the bottom of the page:
BBC News
Reuters Article: (Israel urged to accept truce as Gaza fighting continues
The Reuters figures that state how many Israeli soldiers have been killed (taken from the third paragraph from the bottom of the page):
Reuters
They say that 99% of statistics are made up on the spot, and mine were no different. I was in a rush to Watch Star Trek Voyager (which was starting at 8pm), so I guestimated the 100:1 figure.
The figure is very close to what you stated if you use the claimed 683 Palestinian dead on the BBC News website, and the claimed 10 Israeli dead on the Reuters website (this is assuming you take into account the four soldiers killed by friendly fire). If you take out the four soldiers killed by friendly fire, then my figures are close to being correct.
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