Gaza round 189
- Thread starter KSaiyu
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So some idiots shot up a Mosque down here over this whole conflict. I mean, are people really stupid? Especially since Israel is doing the killing over there. I don't understand why people let themselves become so ridiculous that violence begets more violence, especially in these cases..
- 7,719
I'm just back from a demonstration, protesting the war - sore throat, friends beaten up by police and right-wing pro-war militants, the whole deal. To get a few facts straight:
This round of violence was started by the Israeli Army. After four months of truce, on the 4th of November, Israeli forces detonated a smuggling-tunnel between Gaza and Egypt, killing five. A day later, another man died in a shooting. Israeli officials said: "Yes, we're risking the truce here". Only after this incident, the rocket-fire from the Hamas started - before, the few rockets that were shot came from the "Islamic Jihad" (a local organization, not the religious concept), and the Hamas actually took steps to stop them.
Until this incident, there was a single casualty from the Qassam rockets (which are so primitive that it makes me cry - they're literally just an engine and a warhead), but in the last two weeks, another died. Since the airstrikes began last week, Palestinian forces have begun to fire Grad missiles, and started reaching the more populated areas - and the death toll is now 4 on the Israeli side.
By comparison, we've reached over 400 dead Palestinians so far, and that was just airstrikes so far. Israeli forces have entered Gaza just a few hours ago, and both Israeli soldiers and Palestinian people will die by the dozens now.
And complaining about military bases inside populated areas is stupid. Israel has some of it's biggest bases in the middle of Tel-Aviv, where I live. The army HQ is near three skyscrapers and a popular night-scene area.
Also, the sooner the US stops getting involved, the better. They send us billions of dollars, aeroplanes and helicopters, rockets, guns, and tanks - ceasing US support will effectively stop everything. I regard this as a good thing.
I completely agree with you here. The difference between the actions of Palestinian terrorists and the Israeli army is only the vast differences of scale. Both have hit densely-populated civilian targets - but one of them is "an official army" and that, apparently, makes all the difference the media needs.
There were actually talks, slim as they may have been, with the Syrians. Bashar al-Assad is actually quite serious with his offers, but the Israeli state is ignoring him. Now, with the Gaza war, all talks have ended...
This round of violence was started by the Israeli Army. After four months of truce, on the 4th of November, Israeli forces detonated a smuggling-tunnel between Gaza and Egypt, killing five. A day later, another man died in a shooting. Israeli officials said: "Yes, we're risking the truce here". Only after this incident, the rocket-fire from the Hamas started - before, the few rockets that were shot came from the "Islamic Jihad" (a local organization, not the religious concept), and the Hamas actually took steps to stop them.
Until this incident, there was a single casualty from the Qassam rockets (which are so primitive that it makes me cry - they're literally just an engine and a warhead), but in the last two weeks, another died. Since the airstrikes began last week, Palestinian forces have begun to fire Grad missiles, and started reaching the more populated areas - and the death toll is now 4 on the Israeli side.
By comparison, we've reached over 400 dead Palestinians so far, and that was just airstrikes so far. Israeli forces have entered Gaza just a few hours ago, and both Israeli soldiers and Palestinian people will die by the dozens now.
And complaining about military bases inside populated areas is stupid. Israel has some of it's biggest bases in the middle of Tel-Aviv, where I live. The army HQ is near three skyscrapers and a popular night-scene area.
Also, the sooner the US stops getting involved, the better. They send us billions of dollars, aeroplanes and helicopters, rockets, guns, and tanks - ceasing US support will effectively stop everything. I regard this as a good thing.
I completely agree with you here. The difference between the actions of Palestinian terrorists and the Israeli army is only the vast differences of scale. Both have hit densely-populated civilian targets - but one of them is "an official army" and that, apparently, makes all the difference the media needs.
There were actually talks, slim as they may have been, with the Syrians. Bashar al-Assad is actually quite serious with his offers, but the Israeli state is ignoring him. Now, with the Gaza war, all talks have ended...
Keef
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Like I posted before, it's just the way it works over there, and it won't stop until they all kill themselves. In that part of world the answer to violence is more violence, and I don't think it's ever going to change. It's very sad that even a small minority of people who seem to want to escape the violence by moving here continue to fight this decades-old conflict.
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Joey D
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Metar, I applaud you for standing up for injustice.
If the US gets involved even more than they already are you can bet your sweet behind that another large scale terrorist attack is going to happen. We'd be smart just to walk away from this one and I really hope Obama is smart enough to see that.
If the US gets involved even more than they already are you can bet your sweet behind that another large scale terrorist attack is going to happen. We'd be smart just to walk away from this one and I really hope Obama is smart enough to see that.
- 7,719
They never did that once under the Bush administration - I have little hope.
Also, a complete pull-out is, sadly, unreasonable to expect: The Israeli army is made up almost entirely of US weaponry, from M16 guns to F16 planes - and Israeli army-tech industries also work out additions that the US military quite enjoys receiving in return...
Because that's the official line for Israel's attack - and it indeed is. But think back a little longer, and you'll see who started the rocket-attacks, and why... The Israeli army did this quite often in the past - moving into peaceful nonviolent demonstrations with full armor and M16s, shooting rubber bullets into demonstrating masses, bombing a house during truces... The last 8 years of violence were caused when, in October 2000, Israeli police and army forces shot live bullets (even those disintegrating "Doom-dooms" that leave lots of metal shards in your body) into masses demonstrating as part of a Palestinian protest-day. The resulting dead sparked violence around the country that hasn't ceased yet.
- 7,719
Tel-Aviv is exactly the middle of it, on the west cost. I'm safe, though. The rockets only reached 40km so far (and even then, they scarcely reach that far), and they pretty much have to double their range to reach me. Google Maps helps visualize the distances - Ashdod and Be'er Sheva are the most distant cities targeted so far, but they weren't hit by more than a few each so far.
EDIT: Right in the middle of the country, not the rocket-fire.
EDIT: Right in the middle of the country, not the rocket-fire.
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Oh yes, I know its unreasonable to expect it these days. Obama has been surprisingly quiet about the whole thing, but based on what he talked about when he visited Israel over the summer, its a tough call on what exactly hes going to do.
Of course being someone outside the Hill, its easy to make the call.
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FYI: US fundings represent 2-3% of Israel's GDP. Pulling out funds is a minor scratch.
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We were in reference to military aid, which was $2.8 Billion in 2007. I wouldn't exactly call that chump change.
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- MP-Omnis
Actually, if we pulled funds equal to 3%, we would take roughly a third out of their military budget.
That is significant, especially as a political message.
- 7,719
Military funding is far more than just money, in Israel's case. It's also the fleet of F16s, the thousands of M16 guns, the warships, and weaponry to stock them all. With the exception of the few Dolphin-class submarines, the whole Israeli military consists of American weaponry. In a country where the Health and Education systems are badly lacking, where hospitals and universities are racking up debts and state services get privatized, reducing the $12b military budget by a third will come at the expense of education. Reducing the nearly-free supplies will hurt it even more.
That was a separate incident - religious Jew mobs got worked up because someone drove a car during a day of fasting. An old woman I know also got hit by a stone when she tried to follow the ambulance that led her husband to the hospital that day... Religious Jews are as dangerous as every other extremist religion. They're the ones protesting violently towards Israeli soldiers in the settlements, and they're the ones that introduced suicide-bombing to the middle-east (Israeli terrorist strikes against British colonial forces in the '40s included many suicide-bombers, and even the detonation of a whole hotel-building containing the British HQ).
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Quick trivia.
During the Six Day war, did Israel have US fundings?
During the Six Day war, did Israel have US fundings?
- 7,719
At the time, the Israeli air-force used mostly (though not exclusively) US fighters and helicopters (though some of the modified Sikorski/Yas'ur were used, as well) and the land-forces consisted of Super Shermans and Centurions given for next to nothing. They even mobilized a carrier - if that's not support, what is?
Keef
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I have a Muslim friend who lives near me, and I noticed on his Facebook that he's joined a couple anti-Gaza occupation groups and whatnot. I tried to talk to him about it and tell him that both sides are wrong and have been for centuries. He refuses to believe that the Palestinians are wrong in any way. Oh, did I mention he hates Jews and wants them all to die? He actually told my dad and I that one time. Our jaws dropped.
Why is he in denial that this peace that the Muslim religion preaches will only come when all people opposing it are destroyed?
Why is he in denial that this peace that the Muslim religion preaches will only come when all people opposing it are destroyed?
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As Sureshot pointed out, they've had our money and political backing for some time. Not to mention similar things from the British as well. During that little tussle, we did not pull funding, and as a matter of fact, we were prepared to fight alongside Israel to protect it. Problem was, the Soviets had supported Syria and other Arab states, and we all know where that would have went if someone pulled the wrong trigger.
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You guys are correct.
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It's all depressingly familiar, and I too applaud you, Metar, for your stance on this issue.
If this situation tells us anything it is that the policies of all those involved have failed miserably. The Israeli government's relentless policy of collective punishment and their state of complete denial about the injustice they inflict upon the Palestinians daily have led Israel into yet another pointless and damaging conflict which will ultimately achieve nothing good for Israel. Hamas's policy of targeting civilians through indiscriminate rocket attacks and suicide bombings, and using their own people as human shields then using their corpses as tools of propaganda are just as inhumane and indefensible.
The international community, whether we like it or not, hold the key to the impasse by forcing both sides to recognise each other's right to exist, to demand justice and fairness for both populations/states and not to allow either side to dictate terms to the other. But while the international community stands divided, there is very little we can do but to watch the carnage.
If this situation tells us anything it is that the policies of all those involved have failed miserably. The Israeli government's relentless policy of collective punishment and their state of complete denial about the injustice they inflict upon the Palestinians daily have led Israel into yet another pointless and damaging conflict which will ultimately achieve nothing good for Israel. Hamas's policy of targeting civilians through indiscriminate rocket attacks and suicide bombings, and using their own people as human shields then using their corpses as tools of propaganda are just as inhumane and indefensible.
The international community, whether we like it or not, hold the key to the impasse by forcing both sides to recognise each other's right to exist, to demand justice and fairness for both populations/states and not to allow either side to dictate terms to the other. But while the international community stands divided, there is very little we can do but to watch the carnage.
