Israel - Palestine discussion thread

To add to @Tornado (which should have stayed Toronado) informational post.

Israel as a whole doesn't actually target civilians indiscriminately, they just don't care about collateral casualties.

Thats the problem. They just dont care about innocent people who doesn't even link to Hamas, resulting in thousand deaths.

Sure, there are plenty of videos showing how a couple of soldiers go all guns blazing on innocent Palestinians, but remember this:

Every single rocket Hamas fires into Israel is aimed at innocent people.

Yes, lets fight terrorism with even brutal terrorism! Who cares about being tactical anyway?

Also like the article I was posting the civilians will justify the Israeli attack and than very desperately elect Hamas for their "self defense" without thinking about Hamas motives and thinking about their and their family safety instead. See the flaw there?

There are also plenty of Allah Akbar videos when rockets fly into Israel.

Thats completely irrelevant. Most of Islamic soldiers will shout that as "praying to god" for their attack to be successful. I found that connected to the terrorist groups to be irritating at best. Most of Legit Islamic Military will also shout that when they on war.

It's a shame they voted Hamas into power and now face the consequences of that. The same goes for some of the lunatics in the Knesset.

This. Hamas is the same as those IDF extremists. Though like I was said maybe both civilians and probably even we didn't know their motives of that both groups.

Motifs aside, the real truth is, thousands of Palestinians civilians who are not Hamas are not dead. Israel? Only 2 digits and even most of them is the soldiers. Thats the real problem.
 
So, the easy solution to the real problem, let more Israel civilian dies to even the casualties on both sides, thousands for thousands sounds fair now ? HAMAS would be more than happy to make that happen, or worse kill all of the enemy if they ever could pull it of.
 
Israelis in Tel Aviv 26.7.2014: "There's no school tomorrow,there's no children left in Gaza! Oleh!"




And we continue to see people blaming palestinians for their situation and saying all palestinians want Jews in the sea. It's quite the opposite.
 
And we continue to see people blaming palestinians for their situation and saying all palestinians want Jews in the sea. It's quite the opposite.
No it isn't.

Both things can be true at the same time. And since it's a Holy War, they probably are.
 
So, the easy solution to the real problem, let more Israel civilian dies to even the casualties on both sides, thousands for thousands sounds fair now ? HAMAS would be more than happy to make that happen, or worse kill all of the enemy if they ever could pull it of.
"HAMAS", not all palestinians, let alone mothers and kids.

Seriously those generalization made me mad. Not all Palestinians even approving Hamas. Theres many reasons why. Its just 2 parties, they're desperate, some justify Israel attack, some of them are under obligation, some of them even refugeed to other countries or west bank.

And yet (some of) the IDF's thinks ALL PALESTINIANS is HAMAS, you know, like Hamas thinks all Israelis are that political morons. What IDF basically did is also can categorized as terrorism a.k.a Self Fulfilling Prophecy. Remember, Israel has the biggest military budget and is now approved by US and therefore constitute all over the world. Thats what made some people mad and fills the idiotic conspiracies we all know and hate.

This war is a devil circle and none of them are in the right mind. One attack, revenge by other, revenge by other, revenge by other........
 
Both can be true. But we see signs of it from one side only. I'm still searching for something like this in the palestinian side of population. I'm not talking about Hamas or Israeli gov'.
They elected terrorists. Actual, known terrorists. A terrorist organisation banned in a number of countries including Egypt (with which Gaza Strip has a border) and Jordan (with which the West Bank has a border).

If you want a video of some scummy Palestinian citizens celebrating the deaths of Israelis to offset the scummy Israeli citizens celebrating the deaths of Palestinians as proof, I don't know if I'd be able to provide one - given the relative technological differences, the small Israeli death toll, relative difference in population numbers and the fact they elected terrorists who are happy to see them killed to provide them with propaganda mean even if such a sentiment existed, the chance of it getting out on video are somewhat slim - but it's not really relevant.

The fight is Hamas, who want to see Israel extinguished and want to kill as many Israelis as possible, against the Israeli state, who aren't all that bothered about killing Arabs because they only crack their nuts with sledgehammers. And both sides were democratically elected to represent the will of their people.


This is why I'm a target for any insurgent terrorist action against the British government, even though I didn't vote for them.
 
Both can be true. But we see signs of it from one side only. I'm still searching for something like this in the palestinian side of population. I'm not talking about Hamas or Israeli gov'.
Well of course most media will say it's Palestine's fault, because, unfortunately Israel is funded and supported by the USA (and friends), and has the sympathy of most of the EU.
So, the easy solution to the real problem, let more Israel civilian dies to even the casualties on both sides, thousands for thousands sounds fair now ? HAMAS would be more than happy to make that happen, or worse kill all of the enemy if they ever could pull it of.
Of course not. "An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind."
Not if roughly half of the time they actually hit a target of military importance. Hamas deliberately targets civilians and civilian buildings and their numbers are only barely better with crap like RPGs and hand me down AK47s, so if Israel's real goal to just indiscriminately kill Palestinian citizens as keeps being purported in this thread their batting average should be quite a bit higher than it is.




Do you think they are point shaving?
Probably. I'm sure that some people in positions of power in Israel really want to kill all the Palestinians deep down, but know that if they were to do something reckless like that there would be severe consequences. (Nobody likes genocides, even if "poor little Israel" is responsible)
So, they'll kill a lot of Palestinians through callous disregard for where they aim their explosives, and pass it of as "well, we aimed it at Hamas, but we missed! LOL soz"

It will take the two groups a long, long time to sort their 🤬 out.
 
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Just let it rest, some guys need their black & white world views. ;)
In reality, this is what attack looks like:
same-color-illusio_1121075i.jpg


Black and white is the both different sides. One claim more ethical and better than the other. The truth is their (motives) is pretty much the same.
 
They elected terrorists. Actual, known terrorists. A terrorist organisation banned in a number of countries including Egypt (with which Gaza Strip has a border) and Jordan (with which the West Bank has a border).

If you want a video of some scummy Palestinian citizens celebrating the deaths of Israelis to offset the scummy Israeli citizens celebrating the deaths of Palestinians as proof, I don't know if I'd be able to provide one - given the relative technological differences, the small Israeli death toll, relative difference in population numbers and the fact they elected terrorists who are happy to see them killed to provide them with propaganda mean even if such a sentiment existed, the chance of it getting out on video are somewhat slim - but it's not really relevant.

The fight is Hamas, who want to see Israel extinguished and want to kill as many Israelis as possible, against the Israeli state, who aren't all that bothered about killing Arabs because they only crack their nuts with sledgehammers. And both sides were democratically elected to represent the will of their people.

Hamas’ charter explicitly calls for Israel’s destruction; it bars recognition of Israel and compromise with her. The charter also commits the group to armed struggle and, in describing its view of Israeli and Zionist plans. Hamas has engaged in many criminal acts of attacking civilians.


So is Hamas a terrorist group?

Yes. But many terrorist groups have become governments or taken leadership positions in governments in the past. That includes groups like the Irgun Z’vai Leumi and the Lochamei Herut Israel (LEHI or Stern Group), terrorist groups from the pre-state Yishuv, or Jewish settlement in Palestine. From the ranks of those groups came two Israeli Prime Ministers, Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir. Fatah, the party that had been in control of the Palestinian Authority, also had a long history of attacks against Israeli and other civilian and military targets. It is precisely the fact that Hamas has such a great involvement in the violence of the second Palestinian intifada that gives them much more ability than Fatah had to control that violence, if they wish to do so.

Does this vote mean that Palestinians support Islamic fundamentalism?

Not likely. Although in recent years, religion has increased in influence in the Palestinian territories, Palestinian society still has a very strong secular element. While Hamas certainly has a sizable core of supporters, their success in this election was not due to religion, ideology or violence. Rather, it was attributable to the failure and corruption of the ruling Fatah party and to the accurate perception that Hamas was better organized and free of rampant corruption.

More than anything, this was a vote for change, and Hamas was the alternative. Beyond Fatah’s corruption, there was also the fact that Fatah’s way of doing things had gained the Palestinians nothing in their dealings with Israel. From the Palestinian point of view, the politics of Fatah failed to produce results, so why not give Hamas a chance?

Doesn’t it make sense for Israel to refuse to negotiate with terrorists?

The entire issue is phony; Israel has not been negotiating with Fatah in any real sense since the end of talks at Taba in early 2001, in the last days of Ehud Barak’s term as Prime Minister of Israel. So their refusal to talk with Hamas does not represent a change from before the election.

It is fair for Israel to push for Hamas to change their charter. But one makes peace with enemies, not with friends or even “partners.” It was not the military leaders of Hamas that got elected, but those from its political wing. The same controversy was raised a decade ago in Northern Ireland, and everyone eventually realized that the only way to move forward was to involve Sinn Fein, the Irish Republican Army’s political wing. That same pragmatic view is needed now.

It is wrong and counter-productive for Hamas to refuse to negotiate with Israel and it is wrong and counter-productive for Israel to refuse to negotiate with the legitimately elected leadership of the Palestinians.
 
In reality, this is what attack looks like:
same-color-illusio_1121075i.jpg


Black and white is the both different sides. One claim more ethical and better than the other. The truth is their (motives) is pretty much the same.
Okay, you've explained what the black and white mean to you, but please, what on earth is the giant green cylinder?
 
One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.
You don't gain freedom by denying others theirs.
I think Sniper was only saying that they are overused words, and one can be labelled a terrorist and a freedom fighter by different groups due to the vagueness of the words and lack of set boundaries between them.
It's an optical illusion. A and B are the same colour.
Under the cylinder's shadow, yes. But I was only asking about the symbolism. If the cylinder were not there they would appear to be very different colours. Clearly the cylinder is trying to deceive us. :P
 
I think Sniper was only saying that they are overused words, and one can be labelled a terrorist and a freedom fighter by different groups due to the vagueness of the words and lack of set boundaries between them.
It's a very common phrase, often used by chronic fence-sitters and terrorist apologists. The difference between terrorists and freedom fighters is that the latter avoids civilian casualties where possible and the former aim for and revel in it.

Freedom is not won by denying it to others.

Hamas are terrorists. The state of Israel is neither terrorist nor freedom fighter - just amoral scum.
 
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Under the cylinder's shadow, yes. But I was only asking about the symbolism. If the cylinder were not there they would appear to be very different colours. Clearly the cylinder is trying to deceive us. :P
I dont know. But if I want to add, then its ones (israel) actions.

Hamas may be terrorists. But how Israel treats Palestinians besides Hamas made them basically a (ironically more realistic) terrorists too.
 
Israel's strategy seems to be 'one might as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb' - what's the difference between a few unfortunate civilian casualties and killing hundreds of defenseless children? Of course, there is a very large difference in terms of how the rest of the world views the legitimacy of Israel's tactics, but complaints, warnings, and any amount of hand-wringing by onlookers of any description won't make a blind bit of difference. Israel intend to crush Hamas and to smash the people of Gaza so hard that they think twice about backing Hamas ever again. There is some evidence that it is working - a recent (and harrowing) film posted on the Al Jazeera news website recently showed several Gazan citizens, each in a different state of personal anguish, condemning Arab states and Hamas - condemning the Israelis almost seemed beside the point. The Israeli government must be delighted to hear such condemnation, since arguably that is their #1 aim - make Hamas the enemy of the people of Gaza.
 
The same goes for pretty much every modern terrorist group.

It's starts out as all fun and games but when the deed is done, they bite the hand who feeds them.
 
Another man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.
I would personally say yes and no.

Many Freedom Fighters are labeled terrorists by the force they're fighting against.

However I draw the line at the point where the organization itself directly targets civilians for political gain. That is a terrorist.

Hamas Rejects Palestinian Call for Cease-Fire

If only the leadership of the West Bank was in charge of Gaza and someone other than Netanyahu was in charge of Israel. The only way this can be solved is looking forward instead of feeding off past hatred.
 
They elected terrorists.
To be more accurate, 32.8% of registered voters in Gaza voted for Hamas in 2006. Not to excuse what the military and extremist wing(s) of Hamas does in any way, but blaming Hamas for the rocket attacks into Israel is not quite the whole story. There are many militant groups in Gaza and Hamas does not control them all. Gazan people are angry at Hamas, but not simply for bringing the war upon them, but for failing to protect them. (It's also presumably why Gazan people are particularly angry at Arab states as well). This undoubtedly includes Hamas's seeming inability to stop the militants from firing rockets into Israel. While Hamas can and should be held responsible, it is a stretch to believe that everyone who voted for Hamas supports the rocket attacks and/or the actions of the militants who attack Israel - I believe (perhaps wrongly) that many people who voted for Hamas would rather there were no such attacks so that they might live in peace and not in fear of Israeli reprisals, which are absolutely devastating to Gazan people, voters or not. As many as 1 in 5 victims of the Israeli onslaught in Gaza are children, and at least some of the rest either didn't vote (let's say 1 in 4, since the turnout in the 2006 elections was 76%). Of the remaining 55%, some 2/3rds didn't vote for Hamas. That means that of all casualties since the start of the current hostilities, a meagre 18%, or roughly 1 in 5 victims, might have 'elected terrorists'. The phrase 'collective punishment' springs to mind.

edit: Let's not forget a very important point here. Not all 'democracies' are the same - in Gaza, there is undoubtedly different kinds of pressure on voters than we might experience here... in some places you can be jailed, tortured or even murdered for not voting for the right person (like North Korea, for example). The idea that everyone who voted for Hamas did so because they are pro-terrorist is deeply flawed. Indeed, if Hamas really are the "fascist, genocidal" political party that the former Israeli ambassador to the US just said they are (on the Channel 4 news a few minutes ago), then it is not unreasonable to assume that more than a few people who cast their votes for Hamas probably did so in fear of what might happen to them or their loved ones if they didn't.
 
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