Israel - Palestine discussion thread

[zzz_pt]

In general terms, yes. This particular conflict started when Hamas lobbed a few harmless joke missiles at Israel. They're such cards.

Incidentally, Hamas - the internationally recognised terrorist organisation - won just over 44% of the votes at the last Palestinian parliamentary election. This compares to just over 41% won by Fatah - who include the internationally recognised terrorist organisation the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade in their council.

How far back do you want to go, exactly, before you start apportioning blame? Only you need to predate Israel by some decades if you're wanting a starting point.

On that topic, Israel gave the Palestinian people something they'd never had in their entire history. A country.

It is so hard when 76% of voters turn up and 85% of those cast a vote for either a terrorist organisation or a former terrorist organisation that includes terrorist organisations within it to suggest that if the Palestinian people wanted not to be shelled indiscriminately in retaliation for their government's civilian-targeted shelling of a psychotic nation state with an overblown military budget, they should probably not vote for terrorists to be in charge but...

... no, not that, the other thing.

Incidentally, Israeli civilians' only real crime here is democratically electing their government too. Apparently the Palestinian people don't care about that enough to stop electing terrorists.

The states are as bad as one another. The only difference is that one will inevitably lead to its own destruction as the other is overwhelmingly more militarily advanced and doesn't give a damn. I don't think 1.4 million graves with "See?" is really in the Palestinians' best interests.

1- This is all about the general. This all started in the beggining of the 20th century and it didn't end. This particular conflict is the same conflict from the 20's. We weren't there and we haven't TV or Internet but it happened.


2- Israel gave the Palestinian people something? No.

A country? No. The British had signer an agreement (McMahon Hussein) for Palestinian build their own government but then they ignored it and signed the Balford Declaration. Palestiniena people were denied the right to self-autodetermination.

Is this false?

3- Incidentally, people dismiss or forget the history of how the state of Israel was born. The crime has almost 100 years and people start to forget it. That's what Israel wants. The zionist army, helped by the British, are responsible for the situation. UN commited the biggest error in their history in 1947 and palestinians will have to deal with it until they all surrender or die. Convenient to Israel but bad to human History.

(Western countries label Hamas as terrorists, others don't. It's pretty much the Bush talk "we're the good guys, they're the bad ones". I'm not defending Hamas or other extremists. I'm just saying that the way Israel was "conquered" was by terrorism as well.)

 

[Hun200kmh]

The states are as bad as one another. The only difference is that one will inevitably lead to its own destruction as the other is overwhelmingly more militarily advanced and doesn't give a damn. I don't think 1.4 million graves with "See?" is really in the Palestinians' best interests.

The US were overwhelmingly more military advanced then the Vietcong. The USSR was overwhelmingly more military advanced then the Mujahideen (sp?). It worked great for both of them.


Israel may be overwhelmingly more advanced, and may not give a damn (this is where it is different from the US, not so much from the former USSR, but still worse). The problem is, they're up against numbers overwhelmingly superior of people, with an endless supply of even more people, and they too don't give a damn.

Israel's actions are incredibly stupid because suicidal in the long term, or even worse, Israel's survival, with the hate they are spreading around, will depend on a self condemnation, lasting generations, to a permanent state of war.

I pity them all, both Israelis and Palestinians. Although given the general stupidity and blind hatred they feel for each other, I only pity their kids. Until they grow up themselves and are able to pick up weapons too. Rocks or home made rockets if you are palestinian, far more advanced military weapons if you are Israeli.

 

[mr_geez]

@Blitz24 You are mistaken of course. Read this text, and tell me what did the germans recognize to Jews in Warsaw

????

-Warsaw Ghetto was de facto prison and waiting area for Jews (from Warsaw and surrounding smaller cities) to get transported to Nazi Death Camps. The wall was built as a part of a prison structure, jews didn't want to brake it , get any land or live in that area anymore. They wanted to escape as far as possible from their extermination in Death Camp or through starvation (over 120 000 people died from it in Warsaw Ghetto between 1940 - 1942)

- in April 1943 Himmler decided to "close" the ghetto. Which meant basically transporting (literally like cattle) remaining population to death camps (and killing on sight those who were not complying

- uprising broke out not because Jews (with big help from polish underground forces) in the ghetto wanted any land, human rights or international recognition. They just wanted to die like proud human beings, because they well knew the uprising had absolutely zero chance of success (Poland was surrounded from one side by german nazi scum and from other by communist soviet scum, not exactly friendly neighborhood).



So explain to me where it all has anything to do with Palestine and Israel??

 

[Famine]

1- This is all about the general. This all started in the beggining of the 20th century and it didn't end. This particular conflict is the same conflict from the 20's. We weren't there and we haven't TV or Internet but it happened.

You're about 1400 years out. Israelis are merely the latest in a long line of belligerents with residency claims to the region.

2- Israel gave the Palestinian people something? No.

A country? No. The British had signer an agreement (McMahon Hussein) for Palestinian build their own government but then they ignored it and signed the Balford Declaration. Palestiniena people were denied the right to self-autodetermination.

So you agree they never had a country until Israel gave one to them and it was officially recognised as such by the UN in 2012 - and that it was the British who reneged on the deal to give them an independent state in and not Israel.

Glad we're on the same page.

3- Incidentally, people dismiss or forget the history of how the state of Israel was born. The crime has almost 100 years and people start to forget it. That's what Israel wants. The zionist army, helped by the British, are responsible for the situation. UN commited the biggest error in their history in 1947 and palestinians will have to deal with it until they all surrender or die. Convenient to Israel but bad to human History.

(Western countries label Hamas as terrorists, others don't. It's pretty much the Bush talk "we're the good guys, they're the bad ones". I'm not defending Hamas or other extremists. I'm just saying that the way Israel was "conquered" was by terrorism as well.)

You might want to tell that to Egypt and Jordan, both of whom class Hamas as a terrorist organisation - along with the EU, USA, Australia, the UK and Japan.

The fact is that the current territory - Jerusalem in particular - has been a centre of the longest-standing land dispute in the history of humanity for pretty much the entire length of the documented history of humanity. Much of the Old Testament is dedicated to the wars fought over the city.

So long as you've got two sides dedicated to a literally holy war that involves wiping the unbelievers of the other side out - Israel are at least pretending to go for soldiers only when really they don't give a damn, while Hamas (when they're not fighting Fatah) aren't even trying to pretend. I mean targeting a nuclear reactor? Really?

 

[zzz_pt]

You're about 1400 years out. Israelis are merely the latest in a long line of belligerents with residency claims to the region.So you agree they never had a country until Israel gave one to them and it was officially recognised as such by the UN in 2012 - and that it was the British who reneged on the deal to give them an independent state in and not Israel.

Glad we're on the same page.You might want to tell that to Egypt and Jordan, both of whom class Hamas as a terrorist organisation - along with the EU, USA, Australia, the UK and Japan.

The fact is that the current territory - Jerusalem in particular - has been a centre of the longest-standing land dispute in the history of humanity for pretty much the entire length of the documented history of humanity. Much of the Old Testament is dedicated to the wars fought over the city.

So long as you've got two sides dedicated to a literally holy war that involves wiping the unbelievers of the other side out - Israel are at least pretending to go for soldiers only when really they don't give a damn, while Hamas (when they're not fighting Fatah) aren't even trying to pretend. I mean targeting a nuclear reactor? Really?

There's a difference between give them a country and impose them a country while killing and forceing them to leave their houses and properties.

Why would people need a country imposed by violence, death and UN voting? Why would they need that "country" if they lived well and in peace?

I agree with you last 2 paragraphs except the "old testament is dedicated to the wars fought over the city, since many of those never happened or were quite smaller compared to the story we find in the bible".

 

[Hun200kmh]

????

-Warsaw Ghetto was de facto prison and waiting area for Jews (from Warsaw and surrounding smaller cities) to get transported to Nazi Death Camps. The wall was built as a part of a prison structure, jews didn't want to brake it , get any land or live in that area anymore. They wanted to escape as far as possible from their extermination in Death Camp or through starvation (over 120 000 people died from it in Warsaw Ghetto between 1940 - 1942)

- in April 1943 Himmler decided to "close" the ghetto. Which meant basically transporting (literally like cattle) remaining population to death camps (and killing on sight those who were not complying

- uprising broke out not because Jews (with big help from polish underground forces) in the ghetto wanted any land, human rights or international recognition. They just wanted to die like proud human beings, because they well knew the uprising had absolutely zero chance of success (Poland was surrounded from one side by german nazi scum and from other by communist soviet scum, not exactly friendly neighborhood).



So explain to me where it all has anything to do with Palestine and Israel??

Gaza is de facto a ghetto for Palestinians, although a lot larger than the ones the Nazis created (in urban areas) for Jews. About these ghettos you are mistaken, they weren't created (in 1939) as waiting areas for Jews to get transported to nazi death camps. It's only after 1942, when the "Final Solution" was implemented, that they served that purpose. In the end, by 1943, the Nazis ordered all of them to be shut down, because the jews were not meant just to be confined, they were meant to be exterminated.


What it all has to do with Palestine and Israel is very simple. You have a lot of people crammed into a piece of land, with surrounding walls and military guarded check points, with no hope of anything and nothing else than hate to fuel your existence. You try to live there, watch how they are treated, be treated like dirt yourself, and I'll give you one year before you grab a rocket launcher and send it accross the wall.

 

[Famine]

There's a difference between give them a country and impose them a country while killing and forceing them to leave their houses and properties.

Why would people need a country imposed by violence, death and UN voting? Why would they need that "country" if they lived well and in peace?

Being a nation grants certain privileges, not least with the UN. Israel gave them self-determination - something they'd never had in the entire history of human population in that region.

And they voted in some terrorists!

 

[zzz_pt]

Being a nation grants certain privileges, not least with the UN. Israel gave them self-determination - something they'd never had in the entire history of human population in that region.

And they voted in some terrorists!

I'm not even sure you're being serious.

 

[mister dog]

Being a nation grants certain privileges, not least with the UN. Israel gave them self-determination - something they'd never had in the entire history of human population in that region.

And they voted in some terrorists!

They should be grateful to Israel really!

 

[mr_geez]

Gaza is de facto a ghetto for Palestinians, although a lot larger than the ones the Nazis created (in urban areas) for Jews. About these ghettos you are mistaken, they weren't created (in 1939) as waiting areas for Jews to get transported to nazi death camps. It's only after 1942, when the "Final Solution" was implemented, that they served that purpose. In the end, by 1943, the Nazis ordered all of them to be shut down, because the jews were not meant just to be confined, they were meant to be exterminated.


What it all has to do with Palestine and Israel is very simple. You have a lot of people crammed into a piece of land, with surrounding walls and military guarded check points, with no hope of anything and nothing else than hate to fuel your existence. You try to live there, watch how they are treated, be treated like dirt yourself, and I'll give you one year before you grab a rocket launcher and send it accross the wall.

Well there were special transports of people from major polish ghetto's to concentration camps way before 1943. In the beginning it was polish intelligence and members of polish army & resistance force, then minorities (jews , romani people etc). Gas chambers were first tested as early as 1940 (unfortunately just 15 km from place where I live), so I can safely say that final solution was brewing in nazi heads way before 1943. But it's all semantics really and discussion for another thread.

I have a different question to you and all participants in this discussion.

What should be solution to this Israel, Palestine, Jews, Arabs, Missiles, Deaths problem?

 

[Hun200kmh]

Diplomacy. Although at this point I do think a few Israeli Government and military figures, and a few Hamas leaders, should face trial as the war criminals they are.

Can't see any of that happening though ...

 

[Dennisch]

 

[zzz_pt]

I don't usually give RT a lot of attention, but this time they nailed it. I don't like the her tone though...



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...they-tweet-proisraeli-propaganda-8760142.html



_____

Also

 

[SniperRed3]

Over 1,000 Palestinians have been killed and only 30 something Israelis have been killed. This is only in the most recent conflict. Isn't this mass murder?

 

[Dennisch]

Over 1,000 Palestinians have been killed and only 30 something Israelis have been killed. This is only in the most recent conflict. Isn't this mass murder?

This is a war. And for the umpteenth time, If Hamas had the weapons, deaths on the Israeli side would just as high.

Or wait until the other Arab countries are done with it and start shelling Israel indiscriminately.

 

[SniperRed3]

Yeah, a war on civilians.

 

[Tornado]

I'd hope if Israel was in a "war on civilians" they would be doing a bit better than they are.

 

[SniperRed3]

Damn, isn't a few thousand dead good enough.

 

[Dennisch]

Damn, isn't a few thousand dead good enough.

Well, seeing as that there are 1.5 million Palestinians on the Gaza strip...

 

[Tornado]

Damn, isn't a few thousand dead good enough.

Not if roughly half of the time they actually hit a target of military importance. Hamas deliberately targets civilians and civilian buildings and their numbers are only barely better with crap like RPGs and hand me down AK47s, so if Israel's real goal to just indiscriminately kill Palestinian citizens as keeps being purported in this thread their batting average should be quite a bit higher than it is.




Do you think they are point shaving?

 

[Dennisch]

To add to @Tornado (which should have stayed Toronado) informational post.

Israel as a whole doesn't actually target civilians indiscriminately, they just don't care about collateral casualties.

Sure, there are plenty of videos showing how a couple of soldiers go all guns blazing on innocent Palestinians, but remember this:

Every single rocket Hamas fires into Israel is aimed at innocent people.

Unfortunately videos pop up of lunatic Israelis cheering when bombs drop on Gaza.
There are also plenty of Allah Ackbar videos when rockets fly into Israel.

Fortunately there are also plenty of videos of Israelis condemning the brute force Israel is using.
And plenty of videos of Palestinians asking to stop the violence.

It's a shame they voted Hamas into power and now face the consequences of that. The same goes for some of the lunatics in the Knesset.

 

[SniperRed3]

Israel wants rid of Palestine. They will not stop until the land is all theirs.

 

[Famine]

Israel wants rid of Palestine. They will not stop until the land is all theirs.

Why do they keep stopping then, only to have the ceasefire broken by Hamas lobbing yet more rockets at Israeli civilians?

 

[Tornado]

Israel wants rid of Palestine. They will not stop until the land is all theirs.

I can certainly understand how you missed this, since it was only a 1500x1500 picture posted on the top of a page 3 posts before you posted your graph, but:

Israel already had all of "Palestine." And about a tenth of Egypt too, while they were at it. The UN was, if not happy about it, at least perfectly content with Israel keeping all of it if it meant the region was not currently at war. Israel had it for a good 10 years, and kept a decent sized chunk of it for another half decade after that as they worked out diplomatic relations with Egypt.







And yet they don't anymore. And they've given up some of the Gaza strip as well. So why is it that only now they are trying to kill all Palestinian civilians? Are they offended by the "No Take Backsies" rule of Middle Eastern politics after pulling out of Gaza after the formation of the Palestinian government??

 

[Dennisch]

Israel wants rid of Palestine. They will not stop until the land is all theirs.

That would actually solve this problem, wouldn't it?

That a new problem will arise is a damn sure thing.
When Israel actually gets so far that they have killed or scared every single Arab out of Israel, the next war will be just about every Arab/Muslim nation in the world against Israel. And then for the sake of the rest of the world, let's hope that we (The West) all look away.

 

[Ameer67]

That would actually solve this problem, wouldn't it?

That a new problem will arise is a damn sure thing.
When Israel actually gets so far that they have killed or scared every single Arab out of Israel, the next war will be just about every Arab/Muslim nation in the world against Israel. And then for the sake of the rest of the world, let's hope that we (The West) all look away.

That sure would be one heck of a war.

(4,444th post on on GTP!)

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Yes. But still sounds less horrifying than deliberately attack all people like no other.

Yeah there's evidence and info that shows the drone strikes done were quite liberal in discretion rather than perhaps the more conservative nature you are trying to paint. So no they aren't less horrifying that a nation with the strongest military intelligence (CIA is spearheading the Pakistan front) and hardware all around can't seem to encompass the precision one would expect said nation to have. Since you know it supposedly to date (since it's still going Bin Laden dead means diddly) has killed hundreds of civilians and some others estimate a couple thousand. Also the method the U.S. gov't adopted in counting what is a civilian death and what isn't...is a quite skewed.

Point is don't say nice things about U.S. operations if you don't know the full story and we aren't even counting civilian deaths in Afghanistan due to various methods or other regions in search of Bin Laden.

 

[GBO Possum]

I've been struggling to sort out this situation in my mind, with the greatest difficulty in articulating a position that makes sense.

Then I tripped over Sam Harris's blog. I'd commend it to you as a realistically balanced analysis:-

https://soundcloud.com/samharrisorg/why-dont-i-criticize-israel

Take a listen. It's about 15 minutes long and worth it.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

The US were overwhelmingly more military advanced then the Vietcong. The USSR was overwhelmingly more military advanced then the Mujahideen (sp?). It worked great for both of them.

I didn't know there was some vast core nation behind Hamas/Palestine supplying advanced weapons. Since the Veitcong not only had Chinese weapons that were basically USSR weapons among other things and the Chinese backing them and the Mujaheddin had from the U.S. to specifically take down Russian heavy arms...

I've been struggling to sort out this situation in my mind, with the greatest difficulty in articulating a position that makes sense.

Then I tripped over Sam Harris's blog. I'd commend it to you as a realistically balanced analysis:-

https://soundcloud.com/samharrisorg/why-dont-i-criticize-israel

Take a listen. It's about 15 minutes long and worth it.

Thank you for this it was quite great, and I might use it as argument if the moment calls for it during my second upcoming world religion class.

 

[Carlos]

That would actually solve this problem, wouldn't it?

That a new problem will arise is a damn sure thing.
When Israel actually gets so far that they have killed or scared every single Arab out of Israel, the next war will be just about every Arab/Muslim nation in the world against Israel. And then for the sake of the rest of the world, let's hope that we (The West) all look away.

They will have wars until they start throwing nukes like the west did and maybe then they start listening to each other.