Israel - Palestine discussion thread

[Dennisch]

I always love those maps. Especially how they always purposely label how much "Palestinian Land" there was before the partition plan, and note how much was "lost" because of it.

You have to help me here, I can't see any difference between the 2 maps, and thus where the funny is?

 

[Tornado]

"Palestinian Land" was not a thing before the partition plan, and thus not a thing that could have been "lost" as a result of it being "stolen" by Israel. "League of Nations/United Nations-sanctioned British-owned land that happened to be called Palestine" was a thing, but Britain gave that land to Israel and an ultimately never founded Arab state as per the terms of the partition plan, then hightailed it before either states were actually declared independent since they knew that what the UN wanted to do with it would never work and were sick of being attacked over the issue.

Israel declared independence along the partition plan borders. Then the Arab powers of the region invaded in the perceived power vacuum and tried to take it all. Then Israel pushed them back to what ultimately ended up being the 1949 established borders which coincided with when the country was recognized internationally.

 

[KSaiyu]

You have to help me here, I can't see any difference between the 2 maps, and thus where the funny is?

Read the history behind it

Jump to the "subsequent events" section for a "tl;dr" version.

 

[Dennisch]

The best part is that the leaders (Jewish and Arab) back then already knew that creating the Jewish state there would cause massive piles of bovine excrement to hit the fan.

And we are still seeing those early pieces flying!

 

[Tornado]

Britain absolutely saw the problems with it. They had been on the receiving end of terrorism by pretty much everyone who lived there ever since they came under control of the land. That's why they got the hell out of the region pretty much as soon as the partition plan was announced even though they were asked to help enforce it. And when Britain made it clear that they were so desperate to leave that they upped the date they would give official control to the not-yet-established Arab and Jewish states, the United States objected to the plan as well since then it was clear that it wouldn't work as intended.




The UN did it anyway, and here we are.

 

[Dennisch]

But how did we get from the original plan of the map to the one we are today?

War! Israel defends itself and takes a bit of extra land!
Another war! Israel defends itself again and takes another bit of land!
Etc. Etc.

And now instead of using war, Israel just builds "settlements" to claim more bits and pieces of the land assigned to the Palestinians.

And creates a giant ghetto to slowly get rid of those pesky Arabs in the Gaza strip.

 

[squadops]

The whole thing could have ended in 1967 if it was not for the pesky UN.

Along with Egypt first...

Israeli jets were dispatched against Jordan and Syria, and quickly destroyed both countries' entire air forces. Left completely without air support, already on the first day, the Arab armies were doomed, and within only six days Israel conquered the Gaza Strip, the Sinai desert, the Golan Heights and the West Bank including the Old City of Jerusalem.

1967 - UN-Resolution 242 and the "Three Noes"

Source of a sort

 

[FoRiZon]

Lol sorry to ask, but wondered what Iran is responding now since they now have a moderate president unlike the previous where his speech are repetitive and ridiculous even for Palestinian supporters here.

 

[Tornado]

But how did we get from the original plan of the map to the one we are today?

Israel tripled their land mass after curb stomping the outside Arab countries in 1967, then gave most of it back in the 1970s/1980s. The main thing they've never returned of that nature was the Golan Heights, and the offer to do so has been an on/off thing since I think the 1980s; except Syria is still... well, Syria.


This is what the Israeli borders essentially were from 1968-1978:

Which those "Palestinian Lands lost" pictures all go out of their way to ignore. And the only time the UN voiced a strenuous, "Stop that crap RIGHT NOW" objection to Israel constantly claiming land taken in the various wars was when they began the moves to push into Egypt proper. When Israel backed off from that, the UN was perfectly content with Israel keeping all of that above even though it wasn't even close to what the original mandate had.

And now instead of using war, Israel just builds "settlements" to claim more bits and pieces of the land assigned to the Palestinians

It was assigned to the "Arab state" that never decided to actually establish itself (Egypt and Jordan just took all of the Palestinian lands), and was taken over completely by Israel when they were chasing the Arab countries out of the borders of the British Mandate for Palestine. The closest that ever actually happened to the land assigned to Arabs actually being claimed by Arabs as a new state was when the PLO established governance for the Gaza Strip, and Israel recognized their government and withdrew their claim on the land and their troops.



In that respect, the UN complaints fall on deaf ears, since they've managed to be both hypocritical (they say the settlements are illegal, and don't like the lands gained during the various wars, but don't dare make similar statements to, say Britain about the Falklands even though Argentina says the islands belong to them) and ineffectual (say "Give the land back" doesn't work when there was no established entity before Israel took it to give it back to, because the UN never bothered to actually enforce their original mandate so the Arab state could be founded).

 

[zzz_pt]

Israel DOES have the right to self-defense. If they don't, then you are insinuating that they have no right to protect their people. On top of that, there seems to be an issue with "preconditions" with peace treaties. I'm sure Israel would gladly choose to open the blockade they have on Gaza if Hamas willingly agreed to adjust their charter to recognize Israel as allowing to exist.

What about the massacre from the zionist army against people living in palestine before? Have you seen the videos I've posted in the last page? From 1920 up to today, palestinians didn't had the "right" to self-defense. Nobody gave a famn about them while they were being killed, robbed and forced to leave their land.

But NOW, everyone talks about Israeli right to self defense. What is self defense? killing almost 1000 innocent people that you keep inside a "giant prision"? How many innocent people have to die so we can call it a genocide? Is there such a magic number?

Ceding lands to them doesn't qualify as recognizing?

Ceding lands? Really?


_____________________

http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com...ttack-on-egypt-in-june-67-was-not-preemptive/

Israel’s attack on Egypt in June ’67 was not ‘preemptive’

It is often claimed that Israel’s attack on Egypt that began the June 1967 “Six Day War” was a “preemptive” one. Implicit in that description is the notion that Israel was under imminent threat of an attack from Egypt. Yet this historical interpretation of the war is not sustained by the documentary record.

 

[mister dog]

But how did we get from the original plan of the map to the one we are today?

War! Israel defends itself and takes a bit of extra land!
Another war! Israel defends itself again and takes another bit of land!
Etc. Etc.

And now instead of using war, Israel just builds "settlements" to claim more bits and pieces of the land assigned to the Palestinians.

And creates a giant ghetto to slowly get rid of those pesky Arabs in the Gaza strip.

You're on to them Dennisch, watch out for the mossad now!

 

[SniperRed3]

"Self defence"

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Don't bring a knife to a gun fight, then hide behind civilian seems applies to HAMAS

 

[Hun200kmh]

Warsaw (Jewish) Uprising casualties

13.000 Jews --- between 110 (german figures) and 300 (jewish figures) Waffen SS = that's from 118 to 43 jews for each Waffen SS soldier


Gaza (Palestinian) Uprising casualties

1391 Palestinians --- 9 israelis = that's 154 palestinian for each israeli.



I suppose the 1940's armies had better technology than what the Israelis have today.

 

[mister dog]

Don't bring a knife to a gun fight, then hide behind civilian seems applies to HAMAS

Yes laugh with a thousand civilians including women and children getting blown to pieces, because the jews have better weaponry...oh i guess there was always someone from Hamas hiding there right?

 

[zzz_pt]

Don't bring a knife to a gun fight, then hide behind civilian seems applies to HAMAS

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/20/us-palestinian-israel-children-idUSBRE95J0FR20130620

 

[Hun200kmh]

The more I read about all this the more I am convinced the ............... really think of the ................ (and certainly deal with them) as Untermenschen. If you hear many of them speaking you will have no doubt there's an innate feeling of racial superiority in the way they talk about themselves and others. I have a few ............... friends and I'm usually condescending to such attitude, I really don't care how they picture themselves, it doesn't affect me. And in fact they have cultural value, and the way they speak, the music they like, the scientific knowledge many of their race display, most of their cultural and civilizational heritage are shared by me and my own country and people.

The problem is ... one day, the way they deal with the ones they consider Untermenschen, may indeed affect me.

Then, it'll take millions of lives to set everything straight again.


This could be written in 1934. And this can be written in 2014.

 

[KSaiyu]

The more I read about all this the more I am convinced the ............... really think of the ................ (and certainly deal with them) as Untermenschen. If you hear many of them speaking you will have no doubt there's an innate feeling of racial superiority in the way they talk about themselves and others. I have a few ............... friends and I'm usually condescending to such attitude, I really don't care how they picture themselves, it doesn't affect me. And in fact they have cultural value, and the way they speak, the music they like, the scientific knowledge many of their race display, most of their cultural and civilizational heritage are shared by me and my own country and people.

The problem is ... one day, the way they deal with the ones they consider Untermenschen, may indeed affect me.

Then, it'll take millions of lives to set everything straight again.


This could be written in 1934. And this can be written in 2014.

First they came...?

 

[Tornado]

All along... Hitler was the Jews.

 

[Famine]

It's interesting that the chart posted by @SniperRed3 seems to confirm that Hamas are aiming at civilians on purpose and Israel simply don't give a crap about civilian casualties.

Kinda tough to pick a side to cheer with those two options. Oh wait, let's pick Hamas because trying to hit a nuclear reactor with a rocket is not as bad as not trying to avoid a school with a rocket [/sarcasm]

 

[KSaiyu]

All along... Hitler was the Jews.

Ironically there's an argument to be made that he's done more for zionism than anyone else.

 

[zzz_pt]

It's interesting that the chart posted by @SniperRed3 seems to confirm that Hamas are aiming at civilians on purpose and Israel simply don't give a crap about civilian casualties.

Kinda tough to pick a side to cheer with those two options. Oh wait, let's pick Hamas because trying to hit a nuclear reactor with a rocket is not as bad as not trying to avoid a school with a rocket [/sarcasm]

Why not to pick palestinians?

 

[Blitz24]

Because Hamas ≠ Palestinians.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Yes laugh with a thousand civilians including women and children getting blown to pieces, because the jews have better weaponry...oh i guess there was always someone from Hamas hiding there right?

The was aimed at Hamas. And I don't pick sides, in a war, the better equipped/stronger will win, casualties will always be there, it's how far each sides are willing to sacrifice. The Israel military command, the ones calling the shots, decides which target to attack, and apparently they still don't care about collateral damage, which will always be there as long as the battlefield is not empty ground. The way I see it, you get what you asked for, HAMAS commanders surely knows the risk of retaliation and knows that Israel commanders are willing to kill anyone, just like HAMAS attacks did if they hit the "target", which also seems to be whatever as long as on Israel soil.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/20/us-palestinian-israel-children-idUSBRE95J0FR20130620

I guess every war is the same, and I'm not as sensitive as I used to be, getting older seeing so many things. If Israel main goal is to wipe out HAMAS, they are doing a bad job at it, that's all I can say.

 

[Famine]

Why not to pick palestinians?

On the basis that they're just as much victims of Hamas - despite democratically electing them?

 

[zzz_pt]

On the basis that they're just as much victims of Hamas - despite democratically electing them?

No. Because this conflict started before Hamas or Fatah (the most supported party amongst palestinians) even existed. And palestinians were already there and were already victims of the jewish army.

Democratically electing them in fear or supporting their (hamas) fight for the palestinian land? In West bank people support Fatah and they're being opressed and tortured everyday too.

 

[FoRiZon]

Kinda related. This article is from the former IRA. But I think the IRA to England is the same as Hamas to Israel.

" 8 Terrifying Life Lessons From a
Former Terrorist "

http://www.cracked.com/article_21472_8-terrifying-life-lessons-from-former-terrorist.html

 

[LeoStrop]

This is an interesting watch:

 

[TenEightyOne]

Kinda related. This article is from the former IRA. But I think the IRA to England is the same as Hamas to Israel.

" 8 Terrifying Life Lessons From a
Former Terrorist "

http://www.cracked.com/article_21472_8-terrifying-life-lessons-from-former-terrorist.html

I'd say Sinn Fein are more related, a political party/organisation with a paramilitary wing (the IRA). And it was the UK that they fought; it comprised the countries of England, Scotland and Wales... and the northern chunk of what Sinn Fein and the Irish Republican Army considered to be entirely Ireland. The UK called it Northern Ireland and claimed it. There wasn't a civilian "occupation" as such... but otherwise the comparison's decent.

Certainly decent enough for much of that article to be very relevant in the Hamas/Israel context. Chilling stuff.

 

[Famine]

No. Because this conflict started before Hamas or Fatah (the most supported party amongst palestinians) even existed.

In general terms, yes. This particular conflict started when Hamas lobbed a few harmless joke missiles at Israel. They're such cards.

Incidentally, Hamas - the internationally recognised terrorist organisation - won just over 44% of the votes at the last Palestinian parliamentary election. This compares to just over 41% won by Fatah - who include the internationally recognised terrorist organisation the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade in their council.

And palestinians were already there and were already victims of the jewish army.

How far back do you want to go, exactly, before you start apportioning blame? Only you need to predate Israel by some decades if you're wanting a starting point.

On that topic, Israel gave the Palestinian people something they'd never had in their entire history. A country.

Democratically electing them in fear or supporting their (hamas) fight for the palestinian land? In West bank people support Fatah and they're being opressed and tortured everyday too.

It is so hard when 76% of voters turn up and 85% of those cast a vote for either a terrorist organisation or a former terrorist organisation that includes terrorist organisations within it to suggest that if the Palestinian people wanted not to be shelled indiscriminately in retaliation for their government's civilian-targeted shelling of a psychotic nation state with an overblown military budget, they should probably not vote for terrorists to be in charge but...

... no, not that, the other thing.


Incidentally, Israeli civilians' only real crime here is democratically electing their government too. Apparently the Palestinian people don't care about that enough to stop electing terrorists.

The states are as bad as one another. The only difference is that one will inevitably lead to its own destruction as the other is overwhelmingly more militarily advanced and doesn't give a damn. I don't think 1.4 million graves with "See?" is really in the Palestinians' best interests.