Israel - Palestine discussion thread

[Hun200kmh]

Well, that I'm not completely daft is nice. You may add to that the notion that I'm not completely uncivilized, and by no means a keyboard online warrior.

On the "shielded murderer" issue I think we're done, no more explanations needed.

On the reference to my previous post about how military overwhelming superiority may not win wars, I did see your reply about the Vietcong and the Mujahideen being supported by powerful nations in the war they had, and won, against the then existent superpowers. I didn't retort because I felt no need. If anyone today in the USA thinks the Vietnam war was lost because of the military power of the Vietcong, or even if anyone in the USA thinks that the USSR or China support to the Vietcong is what made the USA lose the war (similar notion but not exactly the same) ... then clearly a lesson has not been learnt.

That lesson being:

"The key to US defeat was a profound underestimation of enemy tenacity and fighting power, an underestimation born of a happy ignorance of Vietnamese history, a failure to appreciate the fundamental civil dimensions of the war, and a preoccupation with the measurable indices of military power and attendant disdain for the ultimately decisive intangibles. In 1965, Maxwell Taylor confessed that "the ability of the Viet Cong continuously to rebuild their units and make good their losses is one of the mysteries of this guerrilla war. We still find no plausible explanation of the continued strength of the Viet Cong."[52] Four years later, Vo Nguyen Giap commented that the "United States has a strategy based on arithmetic. They question the computers, add and subtract, extract square roots, and then go into action. But arithmetical strategy doesn't work here. If it did, they'd have already exterminated us."

This is the last part of a wall of text, if you want to read it here the link. If you don't want to read it, don't click.

How's this relevant to what's happening in Gaza? Make your own assessment, I'm not a teacher.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Well, that I'm not completely daft is nice. You may add to that the notion that I'm not completely uncivilized, and by no means a keyboard online warrior.

You might be if that's the weak fall back you want to use "keyboard warrior", whatever that is. This is the same thing I debate in the class room or with people in general offline. If you have an issue with debating that it unfold to this level and you are somehow not a "keyboard warrior" yourself though you reply back and have done long conversations in the past...then why do you keep doing it?

On the "shielded murderer" issue I think we're done, no more explanations needed.

Why because you've decided that Israel is the great evil? And intellectually debating it is out the window?

On the reference to my previous post about how military overwhelming superiority may not win wars, I did see your reply about the Vietcong and the Mujahideen being supported by powerful nations in the war they had, and won, against the then existent superpowers. I didn't retort because I felt no need. If anyone today in the USA thinks the Vietnam war was lost because of the military power of the Vietcong, or even if anyone in the USA thinks that the USSR or China support to the Vietcong is what made the USA lose the war (similar notion but not exactly the same) ... then clearly a lesson has not been learnt.

What lesson hasn't been learned? That is what happened, the US lost because they were overzealous and still a bit high up on the victories they had in WWII. They thought that the Vietcong was a weak primitive group that couldn't possibly hold up to the might of the U.S. military industrial complex and they were wrong. They were wrong because of the tactics used by the Vietcong and the backing and millions poured into them by the USSR. Just like the west poured hundreds of millions into the Mujaheddin when Russia made the same mistake that they were just primitive people with rocks and AK47s, and when armed with Stinger rockets and other weapons that all changed.

That lesson being:

"The key to US defeat was a profound underestimation of enemy tenacity and fighting power, an underestimation born of a happy ignorance of Vietnamese history, a failure to appreciate the fundamental civil dimensions of the war, and a preoccupation with the measurable indices of military power and attendant disdain for the ultimately decisive intangibles. In 1965, Maxwell Taylor confessed that "the ability of the Viet Cong continuously to rebuild their units and make good their losses is one of the mysteries of this guerrilla war. We still find no plausible explanation of the continued strength of the Viet Cong."[52] Four years later, Vo Nguyen Giap commented that the "United States has a strategy based on arithmetic. They question the computers, add and subtract, extract square roots, and then go into action. But arithmetical strategy doesn't work here. If it did, they'd have already exterminated us."

This is the last part of a wall of text, if you want to read it here the link. If you don't want to read it, don't click.

How's this relevant to what's happening in Gaza? Make your own assessment, I'm not a teacher.

The continued strength was having help from the USSR and China along with the tactics the Vietcong practiced this has been documented long after the war. The point is you people seem to think if Palestine got backing from China or Iran today or someone else beyond the bits of money that Hamas gets from donors of other Arab nations this would equalize somehow and thus make it all right.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Israel and Gaza now looks like Op LineBacker II back in Vietnam War There were more than a thousand civilian casualties during the bombing campaign. US should have done the bombing campaign since the start of Vietnam War, maximum effort + strategic bombing covered by air superiority ops would have devastating effect on the guerrilla tactics employed by the Vietcong

 

[ryzno]

I am probably gonna get flamed but here it goes. And somewhat of a religious rant.

All these wars in the Mid East/West Asia all seem to be based around Religious wars. Now Call me a Atheist, Satin or whatever you want, but the original use of religion seems to go back to, the Roman Empire making claims of being or knowing or communicating with God, to keep the people in fear and thus being able to control the masses by fear.
Where does it say the gods want us living in fear?

Now I have my beliefs about religion being a bunch of stories written in books(which they are) and oddly nothing is written by these "GOD's". Just story tellers. And if these books are Gods word, why have the "preached" words been changed over time?

Now if you read the bible for example. No where does it say kill a man cause of his beliefs. I think somewhere it says defend the name of God, but it doesnt say, start a war cause we dont agree with them. Another example The old testament with an eye for an eye, then the new testament which says forgive the sinners. Come on man... just words written by someone.

Regardless I think all of these Mid East wars are stupid, hundreds if not thousands of years killing each other, all cause of something someone we dont even know, wrote it in a book, its mind blowing to me.

If they want to kill each other after all this time, cause of words in a book, let them have at it I say. Nothing we do will ever stop it. Its been going on so long they dont know how to stop, sit back and look at the big picture.

 

[zzz_pt]

@mr_geez

The ex-PM or President (I can't recall) of Israel was the one saying that they didn't of Egypt's intentions to invade or to go to war. What we have are allegations, not facts.

Israel has impose an econimic blockade to Gaza and that's not an "act of war" as it was the closing of the straits
Israel has troops inside the West Bank.
Israel has already blocked people (even jewish people) from entering their country.


@LMSCorvetteGT2

They don't want a suicide bomber and they're right. So they can kill 1000 people in Gaza. Why didn't Spain built a wall arround País Basco to protect spanish people from ETA bombings?

I know Hamas's history and I never claimed they are right by any means. The most pleasant thing I've said of their actions and strategy is that it's just stupid. Where am I apologyzing for Hamas? And then you bring the same stuff of:

Which is funny cause any thread you can't find majority agreement in you do the same binge on how people are misquoting you all the time and then backing out.

I've only said once that someone had misquoted me. You're that person. And you like to do it. The last time it happened, I've posted a long reply to that and I won't do it againg. I'm not defending Hamas and you're making **** up.

About the majoraties, I've already told you what I think about them. In this specific threat, I'm not that far from the majoraty's oppinion. If that oppinion is that both sides are dealing with the situation in a bad way. I just go a bit longer and add that Israel is killing a lto of innocent people for no reason.

You really have to racionalize a lot and find skewed arguments to defend the idea that somehow civilians in both sides are being equally threatned.

About your link, I've read it and doesn't add nothing important to the problem of the amount of people being killed. BTW, it was written by a jew (nothing against him but it's normal that his views are pro-israel, even defending "death numbers").

I've read your post about your friends in Israel. What do you want me to say? That you have great friends that don't agreed with their gov'? Nice. There you have it. The majoraty of Israeli population supports the ground invasion though. See? It's a majoraty too.

@Famine I'll search what you've said about that part of history (not that I don't trust your word but since you didn't provide any links, I'll do it myself before comment on it).

Authority recognizing? Was the palestine of the 19th century a caotic region? People only "need" gov' authorities because there are people that like wars. John Lenon said it perfectly "Imagine there's no countries". If people respect each other and recognize each other's land or property or anything really, they will be OK.

I'm not saying they didn't want a country or a state. But they didn't have it like they were expecting it and when they were "offered" one, they refused because they weren't even consulted in the process.

@ryzno People won't flame you. You're pretty right and I think the majoraty of people would agreed with you. I just don't agreed with your last sentence. i don't think we should relax and watch it happen. We (atheists, secularists, humanists, or non-extremists believers) should try to show them that religion is BS and fighting in hte name of any god or prophet won't get them anywhere.

 

[Keef]

Why the hell did Jewish people pick the most religiously contested spot on the planet to build a country? That was a retarded idea.

 

[VolkswagenX]

I am probably gonna get flamed but here it goes. And somewhat of a religious rant.

All these wars in the Mid East/West Asia all seem to be based around Religious wars. Now Call me a Atheist, Satin or whatever you want, but the original use of religion seems to go back to, the Roman Empire making claims of being or knowing or communicating with God, to keep the people in fear and thus being able to control the masses by fear.
Where does it say the gods want us living in fear?

Now I have my beliefs about religion being a bunch of stories written in books(which they are) and oddly nothing is written by these "GOD's". Just story tellers. And if these books are Gods word, why have the "preached" words been changed over time?

Now if you read the bible for example. No where does it say kill a man cause of his beliefs. I think somewhere it says defend the name of God, but it doesnt say, start a war cause we dont agree with them. Another example The old testament with an eye for an eye, then the new testament which says forgive the sinners. Come on man... just words written by someone.

Regardless I think all of these Mid East wars are stupid, hundreds if not thousands of years killing each other, all cause of something someone we dont even know, wrote it in a book, its mind blowing to me.

If they want to kill each other after all this time, cause of words in a book, let them have at it I say. Nothing we do will ever stop it. Its been going on so long they dont know how to stop, sit back and look at the big picture.

These wars make a lot of money...

 

[Famine]

Authority recognizing? Was the palestine of the 19th century a caotic region?

Yes.

People only "need" gov' authorities because there are people that like wars.

Yes.

John Lenon said it perfectly "Imagine there's no countries". If people respect each other and recognize each other's land or property or anything really, they will be OK.

Wherever there is land, there's someone to claim it and someone else to counterclaim it. The nomadic peoples who lived there throughout the ages didn't even claim the land that other empires were fighting over. Now they do...

I'm not saying they didn't want a country or a state. But they didn't have it like they were expecting it and when they were "offered" one, they refused because they weren't even consulted in the process.

They wanted one - that's why when the Brits said "Hey, help us fight these Turks and we'll give you the land back" they agreed. The British then snatched it away and both the Arabic people and the Jews - who'd both lived there for millennia - fought to get it back, and the Jews and Arabs have been fighting each other to get it back ever since.

I've literally never heard of Palestinians being offered a nation state and turning it down... It's part of what they'd been fighting for since 1922...

 

[ryzno]

These wars make a lot of money...

Im sure. Seems Metal Gear Solids war economy is coming to life... Something America likes tokeep its nose in.

 

[zzz_pt]

Why the hell did Jewish people pick the most religiously contested spot on the planet to build a country? That was a retarded idea.

They are probably the ones contesting it the most. They all are equally stupid (both jewish fundamentalists, christian fundamentalists who support jews, and muslims fundamentalists).

@Famine Why the caos? Because people living there were at war or because people from other parts of the world were causing it?

We often ear that in 1948 Israel accepted the partition and Palestinians didn't. That's why I've said that the only time they were offered a state they "refused".

 

[Blitz24]

They are probably the ones contesting it the most. They all are equally stupid (both jewish fundamentalists, christian fundamentalists who support jews, and muslims fundamentalists).

@Famine Why the caos? Because people living there were at war or because people from other parts of the world were causing it?

We often ear that in 1948 Israel accepted the partition and Palestinians didn't. That's why I've said that the only time they were offered a state they "refused".

What I have heard (and I could be wrong) is that every time there has been a two state solution drawn up, Israel, while reluctant, accepts it and Palestinians reject it because of some demands not being met. There is also the refugee issue which doesn't help matters.

 

[mr_geez]

Well, that I'm not completely daft is nice. You may add to that the notion that I'm not completely uncivilized, and by no means a keyboard online warrior.

On the "shielded murderer" issue I think we're done, no more explanations needed.

On the reference to my previous post about how military overwhelming superiority may not win wars, I did see your reply about the Vietcong and the Mujahideen being supported by powerful nations in the war they had, and won, against the then existent superpowers. I didn't retort because I felt no need. If anyone today in the USA thinks the Vietnam war was lost because of the military power of the Vietcong, or even if anyone in the USA thinks that the USSR or China support to the Vietcong is what made the USA lose the war (similar notion but not exactly the same) ... then clearly a lesson has not been learnt.

That lesson being:

"The key to US defeat was a profound underestimation of enemy tenacity and fighting power, an underestimation born of a happy ignorance of Vietnamese history, a failure to appreciate the fundamental civil dimensions of the war, and a preoccupation with the measurable indices of military power and attendant disdain for the ultimately decisive intangibles. In 1965, Maxwell Taylor confessed that "the ability of the Viet Cong continuously to rebuild their units and make good their losses is one of the mysteries of this guerrilla war. We still find no plausible explanation of the continued strength of the Viet Cong."[52] Four years later, Vo Nguyen Giap commented that the "United States has a strategy based on arithmetic. They question the computers, add and subtract, extract square roots, and then go into action. But arithmetical strategy doesn't work here. If it did, they'd have already exterminated us."

This is the last part of a wall of text, if you want to read it here the link. If you don't want to read it, don't click.

How's this relevant to what's happening in Gaza? Make your own assessment, I'm not a teacher.

There is a big difference between Israel and 70's/80's Afghanistan and 60's/70's South Vietnam. Both of those countries were in absolute disarray before the respective conflicts started plus you are forgetting about one important factor. Cold War.

It's been almost 70 years since resolution 181. Shouldn't Arabic states (and Hamas, PLO of whoever is pulling the strings in Gaza nowadays) agree for greater good (you know like less dead people in inevitable counter attacks) that Israel has right to be where it is, stop their silly attacks fueled by hate speech of their clueless and opportunistic leaders (boy scout rockets, digging tunnels, suicide bombings, denial of Holocaust etc) and get back to peace talks with sensible attitude? I think in that case there would be easier for international community to force the same stance of compromise on Jews sitting in Knesset and their government. After all it is mainly Arabs who are suffering, so shouldn't you be first to start serious diplomatic dialogue, cease fire and in effect stop the bloodbath of your own people?

 

[Akira AC]

Meanwhile, every innocent Israeli who has died has been exactly who Hamas was after. They're trying to kill civilians - hell, anybody will do - whereas Israel just don't care if they get them too.

Also, nuclear warfare was already attempted. The Qassan Brigade of Hamas launched rockets at the Dimona nuclear facility at the beginning of July - which would have been a catastrophe if successful. And to quote the poster above me...

I do digress in one thing, while Hamas is a "terrorist" organization, is more of an irregular army or insurgency rather than an organized military organization (which IDF actually is).

Hamas is not a regular army, you can't categorically say "they want all the Israelis to be dead" while their structure is based and conform by guerrillas fighters, their families and the possible victims from previous Israeli interventions (2002-2008). So to say "Hamas wants all the Israelis to be dead" is an exaggeration, they are practically conformed and build upon popular unrest due to Israelis offensives in the past (yeah, Palestine's fault for electing a government that seeks retaliation from previous offensives by the Israeli army), Palestinians want to have a retaliatory action against them which is why Hamas gained so much influence.

They are also not that organized either, being conformed by basically guerrillas armed with RPGs and Ak-47s makes me think that isolated attacks from Gaza to Israel do not follow an strict chain of command (mind you, they targeted a nuclear reactor, which could be an organized decision by a top brass in Hamas or just a retaliatory action by a group of independent units within reach distance of those facilities in the first place). If Ahmed's family's was killed by an air strike they will obviously try to do the same for them (this also applies to Israel, however the amount of casualties from Palestinian side makes me think that indiscriminate attacks will be fuelled, thus potential attacks are really a fraction of the number of what a retaliatory action by Gaza's part can be).

I'm not going to even try to look for look for a catalyst because both sides are just faulty, but to say that Israel hasn't got a bigger weight of what it has happen in the last 15 years or so is rather ludicrous. They make the most amount of collateral damage and civilian casualties, which could be proportional to the anti-israeli sentiment, meaning bigger extremist groups which in turn become a stronger political force within the region. Kill 1000, fuel anger from 5000 people related to them and their families, increase this amount and the sentiment would increase, so will the militants and so will the retaliations.

Israel has one of the most advanced military in the world, yet they don't measure themselves to try and keep a collateral damage in check to avoid such proliferation, IDF is an organized army with a command on an organized government organization, and even if they aren't seeing the mess they themselves are doing makes me think that they are just being retarded, and thus need to see what a proper opposite force (like ISIS or Iran) can do to get them on their senses.

Call me extremist but Israel needs to be crushed in the region in order to have a balance between powers, not to say that they need to be categorically exterminated but they need to face a force of similar or equal capabilities to realize of the consequences of their acts.

 

[Blitz24]

I do digress in one thing, while Hamas is a "terrorist" organization, is more of an irregular army or insurgency rather than an organized military organization (which IDF actually is).

Hamas is not a regular army, you can't categorically say "they want all the Israelis to be dead" while their structure is based and conform by guerrillas fighters, their families and the possible victims from previous Israeli interventions (2002-2008). So to say "Hamas wants all the Israelis to be dead" is an exaggeration, they are practically conformed and build upon popular unrest due to Israelis offensives in the past (yeah, Palestine's fault for electing a government that seeks retaliation from previous offensives by the Israeli army), Palestinians want to have a retaliatory action against them which is why Hamas gained so much influence.

They are also not that organized either, being conformed by basically guerrillas armed with RPGs and Ak-47s makes me think that isolated attacks from Gaza to Israel do not follow an strict chain of command (mind you, they targeted a nuclear reactor, which could be an organized decision by a top brass in Hamas or just a retaliatory action by a group of independent units within reach distance of those facilities in the first place). If Ahmed's family's was killed by an air strike they will obviously try to do the same for them (this also applies to Israel, however the amount of casualties from Palestinian side makes me think that indiscriminate attacks will be fuelled, thus potential attacks are really a fraction of the number of what a retaliatory action by Gaza's part can be).

I'm not going to even try to look for look for a catalyst because both sides are just faulty, but to say that Israel hasn't got a bigger weight of what it has happen in the last 15 years or so is rather ludicrous. They make the most amount of collateral damage and civilian casualties, which could be proportional to the anti-israeli sentiment, meaning bigger extremist groups which in turn become a stronger political force within the region. Kill 1000, fuel anger from 5000 people related to them and their families, increase this amount and the sentiment would increase, so will the militants and so will the retaliations.

Israel has one of the most advanced military in the world, yet they don't measure themselves to try and keep a collateral damage in check to avoid such proliferation, IDF is an organized army with a command on an organized government organization, and even if they aren't seeing the mess they themselves are doing makes me think that they are just being retarded, and thus need to see what a proper opposite force (like ISIS or Iran) can do to get them on their senses.

Call me extremist but Israel needs to be crushed in the region in order to have a balance between powers, not to say that they need to be categorically exterminated but they need to face a force of similar or equal capabilities to realize of the consequences of their acts.

Hamas' charter calls for the destruction of Israel and refuses to recognize the country by any means.

 

[Hun200kmh]

@LMSCorvetteGT2 I have nothing to add to, or to retract from, what I previously wrote. I think you are wrong, you think I am wrong, I'll leave it at that.

@Keef that particular spot of land is indeed the crux of the matter (pun intended)

 

[VolkswagenX]

Im sure. Seems Metal Gear Solids war economy is coming to life... Something America likes tokeep its nose in.

It's been like that way before MGS. It's sad, I know.

 

[mr_geez]

Israel has one of the most advanced military in the world, yet they don't measure themselves to try and keep a collateral damage in check to avoid such proliferation, IDF is an organized army with a command on an organized government organization, and even if they aren't seeing the mess they themselves are doing makes me think that they are just being retarded, and thus need to see what a proper opposite force (like ISIS or Iran) can do to get them on their senses.

Call me extremist but Israel needs to be crushed in the region in order to have a balance between powers, not to say that they need to be categorically exterminated but they need to face a force of similar or equal capabilities to realize of the consequences of their acts.

OK, so you're calling for "proper opposite force like ISIS or Iran" (I assume you wouldn't mind Syria also for example) to crush Israel. You don't see anything wrong what is Iranian or Syrian state doing to its own people on their home soil (no freedom of religion, speech, woman rights, heck basic human rights, people "disappearing" without trace) not to mention openly terrorist group like ISIS. Very interesting.

 

[Hun200kmh]

There is a big difference between Israel and 70's/80's Afghanistan and 60's/70's South Vietnam. Both of those countries were in absolute disarray before the respective conflicts started plus you are forgetting about one important factor. Cold War.

It's been almost 70 years since resolution 181. Shouldn't Arabic states (and Hamas, PLO of whoever is pulling the strings in Gaza nowadays) agree for greater good (you know like less dead people in inevitable counter attacks) that Israel has right to be where it is, stop their silly attacks fueled by hate speech of their clueless and opportunistic leaders (boy scout rockets, digging tunnels, suicide bombings, denial of Holocaust etc) and get back to peace talks with sensible attitude? I think in that case there would be easier for international community to force the same stance of compromise on Jews sitting in Knesset and their government. After all it is mainly Arabs who are suffering, so shouldn't you be first to start serious diplomatic dialogue, cease fire and in effect stop the bloodbath of your own people?

Mac, about your first paragraph: Are you also telling me that Israel can solve this militarily because no superpower backs the Hamas? Does Israel think that "bloodbathing" the palestinians, murdering their children, destroying their homes, closing them behind walls and condemning them to poverty will solve the problem? Israel faces eternal hell on earth if it keeps that illusion.


About your second paragraph: I seem to remember that I was the only one replying to a question you previously asked in this thread. I did mention DIPLOMACY, didn't I?

 

[VolkswagenX]

OK, so you're calling for "proper opposite force like ISIS or Iran" (I assume you wouldn't mind Syria also for example) to crush Israel. You don't see anything wrong what is Iranian or Syrian state doing to its own people on their home soil (no freedom of religion, speech, woman rights, heck basic human rights, people "disappearing" without trace) not to mention openly terrorist group like ISIS. Very interesting.

I think you have Iran and Syria confused with Saudi Arabia.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

@zzz_pt So Famine brings up how your argument is similar to that and I just say it outright instead of beating around the bush, and yet somehow you hate me more fore it. It's funny and enjoyable to be that hated by you.

Here's the quote from him by the way in case you didn't see it:

Hamas targetting a nuclear facility isn't justification for Israel killing civilians. Nor is Israel killing civilians justification for Hamas targetting a nuclear facility, as the Hamas apologists seem to think.

NEITHER IS JUSTIFIABLE.

I'll spend time later tomorrow to go over these past 15 or so pages where you've claimed other wise but I recall @TenEightyOne being one of them but that may be a different current events thread. If so that still provides my point that you use it as a default argument.

Ah thanks for enacting the source back checks, I back checked your sources and the one you've posted for the past few pages is purposely anti-Zionist, they even outright say they are. But it's okay for you to post up slanted material as if it's justifiable. The point is everything we post you try to paint as pro-western yellow paper rhetoric for Israel that has tons of convolution, yet hardly anyone has done the same to you and let it slide. So if you want to get to that level of knitty gritty we can.

Do you have a realistic poll or analysis that shows the majority voted for the ground offensive or even air offensive? OR both? If so please post it, rather than videos of cheers or twitter comments claiming happiness in the death of Palestinians.

Also you still haven't said what Israel should do? Should they do what the Hun agreed to that I sarcastically suggested? Also what about the fact that Hamas is purposely breaching the rules of war by setting up shop in what most nations would deem safe zones. Or what about the fact that they want there people killed by Israel and turned into psuedo martyrs for a cause they didn't ask to be apart of (though there is the vote issue).

I've said that a better ground assault and detaining those in the compounds holding weapons should be done. Since it's documented (though most of you don't like to read actual history), that they have the ability to do this.

@LMSCorvetteGT2 I have nothing to add to, or to retract from, what I previously wrote. I think you are wrong, you think I am wrong, I'll leave it at that.

Um no read it again...as I said you right until you act as if USSR didn't supply money, aid and weapons to the Veitcong and China as well as some military personnel during the war.

 

[Akira AC]

Hamas' charter calls for the destruction of Israel and refuses to recognize the country by any means.

Great way to put everything I mentioned out of context.


As if Israel wanted the state of Palestine to exists anyway.

 

[mr_geez]

I think you have Iran and Syria confused with Saudi Arabia.

You want to tell me everything that what I wrote is wrong and is not happening in Iran or Syria?

http://shaheedoniran.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/A-HRC-25-61.pdf

http://www.hrw.org/middle-eastn-africa/syria

 

[Blitz24]

Great way to put everything I mentioned out of context.


As if Israel wanted the state of Palestine to exists anyway.

Ideally, probably they don't, but there is nothing in an official document from the Israeli government that vows to wipe Palestinians off the face of the Earth.

 

[VolkswagenX]

You want to tell me everything that what I wrote is wrong and is not happening in Iran or Syria?

http://shaheedoniran.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/A-HRC-25-61.pdf

http://www.hrw.org/middle-eastn-africa/syria

What?

I think you have Iran and Syria confused with Saudi Arabia.

 

[Blitz24]

Same thing that happens in Saudi Arabia happens in Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Oman, Yemen.... the list goes on.

 

[VolkswagenX]

Same thing that happens in Saudi Arabia happens in Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Oman, Yemen.... the list goes on.

Those countries need to ask Saudi Arabia how to get away with it.

 

[mr_geez]

What?

You mean "What, What"?




EDIT:

 

[zzz_pt]

@zzz_pt So Famine brings up how your argument is similar to that and I just say it outright instead of beating around the bush, and yet somehow you hate me more fore it. It's funny and enjoyable to be that hated by you.

Here's the quote from him by the way in case you didn't see it:


I'll spend time later tomorrow to go over these past 15 or so pages where you've claimed other wise but I recall @TenEightyOne being one of them but that may be a different current events thread. If so that still provides my point that you use it as a default argument.

Ah thanks for enacting the source back checks, I back checked your sources and the one you've posted for the past few pages is purposely anti-Zionist, they even outright say they are. But it's okay for you to post up slanted material as if it's justifiable. The point is everything we post you try to paint as pro-western yellow paper rhetoric for Israel that has tons of convolution, yet hardly anyone has done the same to you and let it slide. So if you want to get to that level of knitty gritty we can.

Do you have a realistic poll or analysis that shows the majority voted for the ground offensive or even air offensive? OR both? If so please post it, rather than videos of cheers or twitter comments claiming happiness in the death of Palestinians.

Also you still haven't said what Israel should do? Should they do what the Hun agreed to that I sarcastically suggested? Also what about the fact that Hamas is purposely breaching the rules of war by setting up shop in what most nations would deem safe zones. Or what about the fact that they want there people killed by Israel and turned into psuedo martyrs for a cause they didn't ask to be apart of (though there is the vote issue).

I've said that a better ground assault and detaining those in the compounds holding weapons should be done. Since it's documented (though most of you don't like to read actual history), that they have the ability to do this.

Famine can think that I'm defending Hamas but I don't see it in his posts. I'm not defending Hamas. You say it outright and you can say whatever nonsense you want. I love when people like to say what's on other's person head. lol

I don't hate you either. Would be funny for you if that was the case? Nice. It isn't. I don't hate people I don't know. I can disagreed with your attitude and that's far from hating you. You can continue to say what I think or feel. You're free to do so.

About that quote from Famine, I agreed. I don't have anything to add to that. Both actions are stupid and pointless in achieving peace.

I don't have a "realistic poll or analysis". I just read the news. I've been backing up what I say. If I can't say anything without backing it up, then you can go and search it for yourself. I don't demand for other people to post "proofs" every time they post something. It's a shame that you've only seen the "videos of cheers or twitter comments" and completely ignored the articles and reports. Nice job.

What's wrong with anti-zionism? What's wrong with anti-racism? You can back check everything I post. It's OK for me. Now you go and claim that "I paint EVERYTHING YOU ALL POST is pro-western yellow paper rhetoric for Israel that has tons of convolution". Can you give any examle? Wouldn't be hard to find, since I say EVERYTHING every single person post as a source is BS.

Hamas is breaching "rules of war" as Israel is. And, again, Hamas is wrong by defending the idea of martyrs. "Lone soldiers" from IDF are almost the same thing from my perspective. They can decide to go to Israel from any other country to enter IDF and go in "lone soldier" missions. Then, at their funeral or "celebration" in Israel, thousands of people will call them heros and rejoice with their "courage". Last week at least 2 lone soldiers were killed and over 30.000 israeli people went to their funeral.
____

About solutions, I think the ideal would be a 1 state solution. I think it would be safer for both israeli and palestinian people if they leave their religions aside. At least in theory. But 2 completely religions, ideas, cultures living inside the same state wouldn't go well.

I think the more reasonable solutions is a 2 state solution with Palestine having the land from the 48 partition plan. This wouldn't mean "peace for all eternity" though. That's why I think that UN should be in control of all the borders (I'm not sure if this is even possible but that's an idea. If this ment less people killed or less violence, I would support it).

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Famine can think that I'm defending Hamas but I don't see it in his posts. I'm not defending Hamas. You say it outright and you can say whatever nonsense you want. I love when people like to say what's on other's person head. lol

I'm not you are through your posts and I argue it as I interpret it. You've shown one side and acted as that is all that really exists.

I don't hate you either. Would be funny for you if that was the case? Nice. It isn't. I don't hate people I don't know. I can disagreed with your attitude and that's far from hating you. You can continue to say what I think or feel. You're free to do so.

Well I'm not here to win awards or anything just argue what I think is wrong so people who read it come away more informed than those with bias would want them too. I only said what I said due to your inconsistency that some how what Famine did which was less abrasive but the same doesn't require you to comment. This could be due to just not seeing it, wanting to argue with him (doubt that), or something more personal as you demonstrated toward me earlier in the thread. Who knows at this point who cares.

About that quote from Famine, I agreed. I don't have anything to add to that. Both actions are stupid and pointless in achieving peace.

That's great but that's not the part of the quote I'm talking about, not sure if you at this point are choosing to ignore him saying Hamas apologist as if your argument coincides with that ideal.

I don't have a "realistic poll or analysis". I just read the news. I've been backing up what I say. If I can't say anything without backing it up, then you can go and search it for yourself. I don't demand for other people to post "proofs" every time they post something. It's a shame that you've only seen the "videos of cheers or twitter comments" and completely ignored the articles and reports. Nice job.

That's not how this works, you don't get to say random numbers or what not and then when asked where not provide them, rather just tell others to look for it. Also you should demand people to provide post if there is questionable material most people here are doing that with out you asking to provide info on why they're arguing the way they do. You just rather call BS because you don't want to sway at all from you argument. So here's a suggestion if you don't want to have a political debate and rather make this your soap box to cram your ideas down our throats, why not set up a blog and let those of us that really want to debate, debate.

What's wrong with anti-zionism? What's wrong with anti-racism? You can back check everything I post. It's OK for me. Now you go and claim that "I paint EVERYTHING YOU ALL POST is pro-western yellow paper rhetoric for Israel that has tons of convolution". Can you give any examle? Wouldn't be hard to find, since I say EVERYTHING every single person post as a source is BS.

So you're proving my point then? Because that's basically what the quote you just did of me says. Do you know what the yellow paper or yellow press was? If you don't look it up and you'll get the reference I'm making and how that seems to be the idea you get of all of us who posts up source material. To the point I've pretty much given up with you on it.

Also don't be dense, it's quite simple what's wrong when a supposed intellectual that is suppose to provide objective info has a bias and claims this bias out loud as if it doesn't effect his judgement or credibility.

Hamas is breaching "rules of war" as Israel is. And, again, Hamas is wrong by defending the idea of martyrs. "Lone soldiers" from IDF are almost the same thing from my perspective. They can decide to go to Israel from any other country to enter IDF and go in "lone soldier" missions. Then, at their funeral or "celebration" in Israel, thousands of people will call them heros and rejoice with their "courage". Last week at least 2 lone soldiers were killed and over 30.000 israeli people went to their funeral.

Where did you get this info from twitter? I'm sure you'll tell me to go find it myself. Did a twelve year old do the head count or did the senile 87 year old hand out the sign in sheets?
____

About solutions, I think the ideal would be a 1 state solution. I think it would be safer for both israeli and palestinian people if they leave their religions aside. At least in theory. But 2 completely religions, ideas, cultures living inside the same state wouldn't go well.

I think the more reasonable solutions is a 2 state solution with Palestine having the land from the 48 partition plan. This wouldn't mean "peace for all eternity" though. That's why I think that UN should be in control of all the borders (I'm not sure if this is even possible but that's an idea. If this ment less people killed or less violence, I would support it).

Well thank you, you've only shown how little you know about the current state of affairs. First off Muslims currently live in Israel. Secondly, you seem to think Palestine even without what Israel says or does is some unified place it isn't. You have Gaza and the West Bank, both of varying ideologies on how they want to see Palestine and it's coexistence or potential unity with Israel. So it's not just getting some Muslim's to agree but people of different ideas and somewhat cultures agreeing and then having to agree with Israel of a different religion and culture mainly.

And that's just scratching the surface.

 

[mister dog]

I'll interrupt you folk going at it, with the news that the US has more or less joined the UN for once in condemning the Israeli bombing of another UN school where people shelter for the bombs:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28573674

And i give you a picture of how hell on earth looks like these days:

Wonder how all those that actually support these bombing campaigns would feel like, if they would be trapped in Gaza with their families at this moment...