Israel - Palestine discussion thread
- Thread starter Beeblebrox237
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- GBO-Possum
Egypt is helping Israel it seems. And Arab states don't seem to be supporting Hamas like they used to.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/31/w...-find-themselves-allied-with-israel.html?_r=0
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/31/w...-find-themselves-allied-with-israel.html?_r=0
KSaiyu
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They don't want Hamas or ISIS or any of their ilk threatening them. There's a reason the Rafah border has been closed more strictly since the Muslim Brotherhood were kicked out.
- 7,176
- Lisboa
- FLAT_TWELVE
A bit off topic, I have a facebook account that I rarely use and, like with twitter, serves mostly my motorports mania.
However, recently and because I have both jews and muslims as friends, my facebook account has been transformed into a dump for both sides propaganda. So far, so good.
Then, this just in, obviously posted by a jewish friend:
http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/J...or-refuses-treatment-to-Jewish-patient-369591
People can be really stupid. A doctor may tell any jew whatever he thinks about the continuous murdering of civilians by the Israelis in Gaza, even that - as I did already in this thread - The Israeli Government should face trial for war crimes. But to refuse the practise of medicine for anyone in need of it is very serious.
PS - I'm now waiting a muslim friend to post a link to some piece of news about how Israel's doctors refuse to care for palestinians.
However, recently and because I have both jews and muslims as friends, my facebook account has been transformed into a dump for both sides propaganda. So far, so good.
Then, this just in, obviously posted by a jewish friend:
http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/J...or-refuses-treatment-to-Jewish-patient-369591
People can be really stupid. A doctor may tell any jew whatever he thinks about the continuous murdering of civilians by the Israelis in Gaza, even that - as I did already in this thread - The Israeli Government should face trial for war crimes. But to refuse the practise of medicine for anyone in need of it is very serious.
PS - I'm now waiting a muslim friend to post a link to some piece of news about how Israel's doctors refuse to care for palestinians.
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- crispychicken49
- crispychicken49
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- a6m5zero
Then Israeli army is a puppet in Hamas' hands? They can't decide not to blow up a building with hundreads of inocent people inside?
(I've edited my previous post)
I think this is too much spin.
By my observation, many Pro-Israel people, at least in the U.S., see the Hamas attack as an act of war. It seemed that way to me at first also. One country attack, country defending have every right to hammer the capability of the attacker to fire. Thanks to educated & level-headed members in this thread, I did learn Hamas versus Israel was not that cut & dry.Having said that, I do find the "Bin Laden" argument(brought up in this thread, also in your youtube vid) ridiculous. Hunting for one high profile terrorist, nailing that one individual to one certain building, after so much money, manpower & time were spent, not to mention after the unmeasurable amount of bloodshed, then finally killing him. How many Hamas soldiers exist? Do Israel possess the amount of intel the U.S. Intelligence had on Bin Laden on every one of those Hamas members firing rockets at them?
I find this bank robbery comparison just as far-fetched. When the police is dealing with hostage crisis, they seal off the building & area surrounding it. Police will isolate the criminals, locking them in. From there, they can negotiate, attempt to take out the criminals, etc. They must control the environment in order to make this happen. I also expect the negotiation to end quickly, once the criminals start firing rockets at everybody.
How would this approach work for Israeli soldiers, in Gaza? Executing police tactics in hostile environment where, according to you guys, Hamas is infiltrating innocent Palestinians at will, because they are so good at fooling peaceful Palestinians they blend right in, even inside U.N. operations in effort to kill more Jews, at least to me, sounds absolutely deadly for the cops. If you are the police/Israelis, you think you are surrounding somebody, but criminals can start showering you with artillery at any moment from your weak side.
My humble take on it, I think I'm somewhere in the middle? I do now believe that Gaza situation is not your conventional warfare. I don't believe it is simply one nation fighting another. At the same time, I don't believe it's the responsibility of the Israelis to absolutely avoid any innocent casualty, like in the "hostage", or "Bin Laden" argument that's been brought up.
I think we can all agree that we want, not just the stoppage in civilian deaths, but end to all suffering inflicted by this conflict. How we get there, I don't think there is an answer people like you, me, and others all can agree on. In fact, I expect continued tragedy regardless of what we say on gtplanet, or what peaceful Palestinians & Jews wish for.
I think @Danoff hit the nail on the head with that comment about what the "victory" means & is to each side. Personally, I think it's a classic case of flawed leaders & politicians(both sides) getting us to kill each other.
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Israel is well aware the consequences of shelling civilian buildings on the informed assumption that Hamas is hiding munitions or terrorists inside. The issue in that case isn't even that they just don't care. The real issue is that they are savvy enough (or immoral enough, or both) to realize that sending in commandos to raid suspected weapons depots or kill specific terrorists is not only dramatically more dangerous of Israeli soldiers, but would very likely garner just as much international outcry as just leveling whatever building they think is suspicious and saying "but there were RPGs hidden in there" after the fact; with the added hope of demoralizing the opposition further.
The part you keep missing (on purpose?) is that Hamas is also aware that Israel doesn't care, and deliberately provoke them into taking the above action knowing that Israel won't blink. They don't put munition dumps or terrorist hideouts in hospitals and schools or UN aid stations on accident. They do it in the hopes that Israel will start indiscriminately bombing those otherwise off-limits targets on the basis that the things they are trying to eliminate at could be hidden there; in the hopes of either raising international outcry until Israel is told to knock if off and/or raising the resolve of pro-Hamas Palestinians and garnering support. One could almost argue that Israel is being manipulated into action, except Israel isn't stupid enough to not see the ruse and seemingly hope to destroy Hamas as well as any popular support for the group among Palestinians before international outcry goes anywhere beyond "and that's terrible."'
But make no mistake here: they're both playing the exact same game.
zzz_pt
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@a6m5 Just to clarify that the point of the "osama bin laden" and the "criminal" analogy was to ask ourselves how much do we value the life of innocent people. It was more of a moral question than a strategic one.
People are trapped in Gaza. They can't get out. Is not even a "Normal" situation. We look at Sirya, Libya, Iraque, etc and we see people by the thousands fleeing from the wars/terrorists. In Gaza that isn't possible.
One more thing. Israel has bombed the energy power plant so they can do whatever they want and no one will see it. Only a few people will have some means to record or report anything at this stage.
People are trapped in Gaza. They can't get out. Is not even a "Normal" situation. We look at Sirya, Libya, Iraque, etc and we see people by the thousands fleeing from the wars/terrorists. In Gaza that isn't possible.
One more thing. Israel has bombed the energy power plant so they can do whatever they want and no one will see it. Only a few people will have some means to record or report anything at this stage.
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zzz_pt
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If only they (innocent people) could get out of Gaza. If Israel really wanted to prevent civilian casualies they could let (at least children and their mothers) out of Gaza. We don't know if the palestinians would accept it but at least they would have a way out.
Israel was calling some people to get out of their homes before droping bombs. Why didn't they do the same with the hospitals and schools?
Do I have to say in every post I make that what Hamas does is stupid? But where is the moral bar? Do we really want to compare ourselves with Hamas? Israel should (as they claim to be the most moral army in the world) be doing "something" better than Hamas.
There's no eveidence that every single hospital or school was hidding rockets. We have until now confirmation of 3 (i think) according to UN reports. A lot of the bombings are in completely harmless locations. We still don't have a reasonable explanation for the bombs on the beach, the market, the power plant, some hospitals, some schools and a lot of regular houses.
also, if they're playing the exact same game, why do we label ones as terrorists and the others, an army? The game is the same, I agreed. Both are on the level of terrorism at this point. But Israel has golden chess pins and Hamas has shi*ty chess pins.
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- 26,626
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- a6m5zero
I respect where you are coming from, but I do feel that way these questions were presented to me a couple of times(not just you, but also from others), they not only criticized tactics used by the IDF, it suggested an specific alternative(target a building, kill just the bad guys). Don't get me wrong, I do realize that you aren't demanding "zero" civilian casualty, but I think a simple "IDF could do better to minimize civilian casualties" would have sufficed if just arguing against the brutal Israeli attacks. It seemed like it went from one extreme to another, at least to me!
People being trapped in Gaza, attack on the power plant, they are very valid points. 👍 As I noted in my previous post, I think we all want the suffering by any civilians to end. How they make that happen, while I may not agree with tactics along the lines of those brought up in the two previous questions, I do think that IDF should strive to come close, which they apparently don't seem interested to. As long as the IDF continue to display their lack of compassion for Palestinian civilians, and Hamas continue to stash & fire their weapons by those civilians, neither of us are going to like the outcome.
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Being less transparent that you're just paying lip service to the concept so people will stop piling onto you for repeatedly expressing sentiment like this:
Would probably make it take without you wasting your time repeating it over and over again. The fault with that position was even explained to you logically one of the first times you said it and you made it as obvious as possible that you didn't even care then.
Why, that's something I didn't acknowledge already or anything:
I'll answer your question with another one: If Famine spending several pages attempting to explain this point (among others that you were misinformed of yet repeated as fact multiple times) didn't take, in what way would it not be a waste of time for me to try to do the same? Would you (once again) abruptly change the subject to be about how we can't really comment on the subject since we aren't experiencing it (multiple times)? Or shirk away from a counterpoint by talking about how nice Israelis have it compared to Palestinians (that's actually another repeated diversion for you)? Page after page after page people after page of multiple people have told you the exact same things, and you've ignored them so thoroughly that in one particularly humorous case you repeated the exact same thing Famine had just explained was incorrect as a response (and what he even predicted you would say, no less), and had already been explained multiple times as being incorrect by multiple people before then.
Now by all means, go ahead and post another summary of your "true" posting output in this thread like you did with LMSCorvetteGT2 about ten pages ago. I'm certainly game to break down exactly how much and how frequently you've refused to acknowledge that you may not in fact be as "aware of what happened in the region" as you keep saying; and I daresay that I'm better at doing it than he is. In fact, I'll probably do it anyway when I get home from work tomorrow. For Christ's sake, one of your big talking points from a few pages ago was equating the Holocaust to Israeli actions in the region (though at least you backed away from that when called on it, which is more than can be said for some others in this thread) in the midst of an argument where you repeatedly failed to grasp the stated mission of the Hamas group and how it differed from Israel's actions.
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How about they leave the area where Hamas is operating.
If I were sheltering in a UN school, and Hamas started shooting rockets from there, I would take my family and go.
If Hamas were shooting rockets from near my house I would leave.
Go to google earth and look at Gaza. There is plenty of blank desert space that hamas could be attacking from. But they are not, they are attacking from civilian neighborhoods.
They are counting on the news media showing dead children to advance their "we are the victims" agenda.
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leaving your house isn't that simple is it?
zzz_pt
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- zzz_pt
Logic? What's the logic of implying that palestinian children want to kill every single israeli civilian? I said it and I repeat it. I don't have any problem to be on their side. Explain me that logic of the argument if you can. Explain me how can you imply that every single human being in Gaza, despite their age, their religion, their culture, wants to kill every single israeli (or jew in israeli, depending on who you're reffering to).
In reality, we have Side A where Hamas lives and operates, and on that side, some people want every israeli in the sea, some want peace, some want their "right to return" to their homeland, some want to be free from Israeli opression, some wish to leave the region.
On side B, you have some people who want every palestinian dead, some want peace, some want the land and its resources.
Tell me how can you say that one side wants the other anihilated (that black and white) and hope for me to agreed that's the case and it's completely logical, ignoring the fact that, at least children, are 100% innocent in the situation. If you want to include children in the argument, it's up to you. I can't get it.
So, if Israel starts to "indiscriminately bombing those otherwise off-limits targets on the basis that the things they are trying to eliminate at could be hidden there", they're puppets falling on Hamas's intentions. Even if that's the case (israel start to bomb indiscriminately), that doesn't make it excusable, in my oppinion.
I'm not asking you to explain the difference between Hamas and the IDF in general. I was asking about the difference right now, where you said they are playing the same game (and I agreed). How far can Israel go before we can say they're commiting "terrorist acts"? We all know that Hamas is commiting them, it's part of their agenda.
I'm not changing subjects. Do you think we would racionalize the same way if we were in Gaza or in Israel? I can't talk for other people, but I think if I was at this moment either in Gaza, or in Israel, I would probably have the same oppinion as I have here, far from the conflict. Would you have the same oppinion of imparciality if you were in Gaza at this point? It's the same question I aked LMSCorvette. If you had a ticket and you had to go to one of this destinations, center of Gaza or center of TelAviv, what would you chose? And why? Where would you be safer?
People have told me exact same things? Yes. That I'm biased and I'm defending Hamas. What have I been saying throughout the thread that's completely wrong? My oppinion?
On the point of the "67 war", it was my mistake because I didn't read it correctly and I replyed based on a miss interpretation. What's humurous about that? That was a language problem. I'm not english. Unfortunately it's not the first time I miss read an idea or a sentence. I've recognize that fact but I don't want to stay out of this forum or this thread just because I may commit some mistakes both making myself understood or understanding other's people posts. Maybe I should.
My true? If you didn't understood the point and the reason of that post it's OK.
I have no reasons to do it again.
But go ahead. You can make a post with everything I've said that's wrong and correct it. I have no problems with that (as I've said earlier, I want to be corrected if I give wrong facts or my sources are BS). What I did with that post 10 pages ago was not with that intent. I was falsely accused of not contributing with anything relevant to the thread until that point. It wasn't a matter of where someone's being inacurate or wrong with facts, it was a matter of personal acusation. You can check it if you want. But I'm sure you'll aplly your time better doing other things.
One of my "big talking points"? It was a stupid statement that I made. I saw the video and I was shoked about the fact that right after the Holocaust arab people was suffering by the hands of those who were persecuted by the Nazi regime. I would edit that post by my own. We say things we regret sometimes don't we? The scale and the means were completely diferent but both situations were a digrace in recent History. There are people today, survivors of the Nazi regime and concentration camps that defend the palestinian people. But I don't want to compare both tragedies.
In a midst of an argument where I repeatedly failed to grasp the stated mission of the Hamas group and how it differed from Israel's actions? People were talking about Osama bin Laden.
Hamas runs behind them. How can they leave if they can't leave?
If the boarder wasn't closed, Israel could save at least the children and block Hamas in the border.
Hamas are terrorists that's a fact. But why do you think they would be so stupid and go to the open desert? They claim they "Love death" but they're humans to. And that's why they cowardly hide among civilians.
We would be all "happier" if Hamas had a military building in the middle of the desert. That way, they would be far from the palestinain people (like a normal country has their military bases in the middle of nowhere). Unfortunately that's not the case. But I still think that Israel shouldn't go get Hamas and ignore the civilian population or target civilian people/infrastructures.
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- 29,006
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No, it most definitely is not that easy.
UNRWA have made it clear to both Israel and Hamas that their grounds are protected areas under international law and both sides need to respect that. Neither side are.
I've watched about all the films from Gaza that I can stomach and it is the scenes of families fleeing that are among the most harrowing - infants, invalids, and the elderly all forced out of their homes, and onto the streets where they have no other option but to head towards UN shelters where there still exists the risk of being killed.
From a humanitarian and international law point of view, there has to be a line drawn somewhere. It is simply not right to expect vulnerable people to have to leave a designated UN refuge/shelter because there happens to be militants nearby for a few hours. The militants are highly mobile and hardly likely to stay put once they've launched a rocket attack anyway. There are no minibuses waiting to ferry people between shelters like it's Florida. Some people are having to carry their sick or elderly relatives on their backs because they cannot walk any further. It is cruel and unrealistic to expect these people to move at all, let alone to move repeatedly.
Danoff
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...all the better for Hamas, and the reason Israel ignores civilian casualties.
Dotini
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Ya'qub Bond: Do you expect me to walk? Auric Goldfinger: No, Mr. Bond, I expect you to die!
But seriously, it's a perplexing humanitarian and legal problem. It's clear who holds the high ground from a military point of view. The question is, what will it take for the situation to change? One possible answer is the firing of the last rocket in Palestinian inventories. Last I heard, they started with an estimated 10,000 and have over half remaining.
By all reports, the Israeli government has the overwhelming backing of the Israeli people. So why would they change what they are doing? Perhaps it would be clever of them to ensure a clandestine supply of rockets to the Palestinians in order that their campaign of suppression could become perpetual?
But seriously, it's a perplexing humanitarian and legal problem. It's clear who holds the high ground from a military point of view. The question is, what will it take for the situation to change? One possible answer is the firing of the last rocket in Palestinian inventories. Last I heard, they started with an estimated 10,000 and have over half remaining.
By all reports, the Israeli government has the overwhelming backing of the Israeli people. So why would they change what they are doing? Perhaps it would be clever of them to ensure a clandestine supply of rockets to the Palestinians in order that their campaign of suppression could become perpetual?
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zzz_pt
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I even heard they (Hamas) may have secret factories underground to make their own missiles.
____
___
Warning: Graphic content
Exclusive ground report: Crisis at children's ward at Gaza hospital
"If nothing else, this images, this statistics, should cut through the fog of blame and politics to force the world into acting."
Why Does Israel Keep Changing Its Story On Gaza?
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Keef
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Israel needs to work on its shock and awe tactics. Your war is not impressive enough until I'm watching it on the news. That's what I want to see. I want to see live images of things blowing up while I'm eating lunch in high school, a la Iraq.
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So the Times Of Israel published an article called "When Genocide Is Permissible" then removed it.
Post Removed: http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/when-genocide-is-permissible/
Thankfully, some kind souls cached it so you can read it here. It's worth it.
Post Removed: http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/when-genocide-is-permissible/
Thankfully, some kind souls cached it so you can read it here. It's worth it.
Imagine if Las Vegas was shielded and you were told to leave Las Vegas, where the 🤬 are you supposed to go? Mojave dessert? where would you sleep, where would you get supplies?
Is an area surrounded by a dessert to the north, south and east, while it's western border is a coast area. Aside that, Gaza has approximately 1.8 million inhabitants with 9,500 habitants per mile square, imagine if you halve that space, where the hell are you supposed to go?
I can get upset about this, because I can't downright ignore such amount of ignorance, sorry.
And yeah, ceasefire is now gone, if it ever existed one.
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VolkswagenX
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zzz_pt
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Good read.👍
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zzz_pt
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HRW Whitewashes Israel, The Law Supports Hamas: Some Reflections on Israel’s Latest Massacre
“Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel appear to be indiscriminate or targeted at civilian population centers,” Human Rights Watch’s first press release stated, “which are war crimes.” On this point, Amnesty concurred. But are projectile attacks by Hamas (used here as short-hand for all Palestinian armed groups) war crimes or even illegal? In fact, the law is more ambiguous than often allowed.
International law prohibits an occupying power from using force to suppress a struggle for self-determination, whereas it does not prohibit a people struggling for self-determination from using force.[1] The International Court of Justice (ICJ) stated in its 2004 advisory opinion that the Palestinian people’s “rights include the right to self-determination,” and that “Israel is bound to comply with its obligation to respect the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination.” Israel consequently has no legal right to use force to suppress the Palestinian self-determination struggle.
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Although claiming for itself the right of self-defense against Hamas projectiles, in fact Israel is claiming the right to maintain the occupation. [... ]The refrain that Israel has the right to self-defense is a red herring: the real question is, Does Israel have the right to use force to maintain an illegal occupation? The answer is no. "
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One might legitimately question the political prudence of Hamas’s strategy. But the law is not unambiguously against it, while the scales of morality weigh in its favor. Israel has imposed a brutal blockade on Gaza. Fully ninety-five percent of the water in Gaza is unfit for human consumption. By all accounts, the Palestinian people now stand behind those engaging in belligerent reprisals against Israel. In the Gaza Strip, they prefer to die resisting than to continue living under an inhuman blockade. Their resistance is mostly notional, as makeshift projectiles cause little damage. So, the ultimate question is, Do Palestinians have the right to symbolically resist slow death punctuated by periodic massacres, or must they lie down and die?"
“Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel appear to be indiscriminate or targeted at civilian population centers,” Human Rights Watch’s first press release stated, “which are war crimes.” On this point, Amnesty concurred. But are projectile attacks by Hamas (used here as short-hand for all Palestinian armed groups) war crimes or even illegal? In fact, the law is more ambiguous than often allowed.
International law prohibits an occupying power from using force to suppress a struggle for self-determination, whereas it does not prohibit a people struggling for self-determination from using force.[1] The International Court of Justice (ICJ) stated in its 2004 advisory opinion that the Palestinian people’s “rights include the right to self-determination,” and that “Israel is bound to comply with its obligation to respect the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination.” Israel consequently has no legal right to use force to suppress the Palestinian self-determination struggle.
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Although claiming for itself the right of self-defense against Hamas projectiles, in fact Israel is claiming the right to maintain the occupation. [... ]The refrain that Israel has the right to self-defense is a red herring: the real question is, Does Israel have the right to use force to maintain an illegal occupation? The answer is no. "
--
One might legitimately question the political prudence of Hamas’s strategy. But the law is not unambiguously against it, while the scales of morality weigh in its favor. Israel has imposed a brutal blockade on Gaza. Fully ninety-five percent of the water in Gaza is unfit for human consumption. By all accounts, the Palestinian people now stand behind those engaging in belligerent reprisals against Israel. In the Gaza Strip, they prefer to die resisting than to continue living under an inhuman blockade. Their resistance is mostly notional, as makeshift projectiles cause little damage. So, the ultimate question is, Do Palestinians have the right to symbolically resist slow death punctuated by periodic massacres, or must they lie down and die?"
Fair enough.
