Israel - Palestine discussion thread

The conflict has taken a sharp new twist: An Israeli lieutenant officer has apparently been captured by Hamas or one of the other militant organizations. The talking heads on CNN say to expect a major military escalation on the part of Israel. An Hamas spokesman denies having the soldier.
 
Indeed, both the BBC and Guardian have reported that the Israeli response is in line with an IDF directive to 'flatten' the region where they suspect the opposition fighters might be in order to prevent them getting very far, even if it involves risking injury to the captured soldier - in other words, they're happy to sacrifice the captured soldier to prevent him being used as a bargaining chip or in enemy propaganda.
 
Indeed, both the BBC and Guardian have reported that the Israeli response is in line with an IDF directive to 'flatten' the region where they suspect the opposition fighters might be in order to prevent them getting very far, even if it involves risking injury to the captured soldier - in other words, they're happy to sacrifice the captured soldier to prevent him being used as a bargaining chip or in enemy propaganda.

That was one of the longer sentences I have read recently. :)

But it makes sense. The last Hamas captive garnered 1000 men in exchange.
 
They don't put munition dumps or terrorist hideouts in hospitals and schools or UN aid stations on accident. They do it in the hopes that Israel will start indiscriminately bombing those otherwise off-limits targets on the basis that the things they are trying to eliminate at could be hidden there; in the hopes of either raising international outcry until Israel is told to knock if off and/or raising the resolve of pro-Hamas Palestinians and garnering support. One could almost argue that Israel is being manipulated into action, except Israel isn't
Can you give us some proof of that?
 
Indeed, both the BBC and Guardian have reported that the Israeli response is in line with an IDF directive to 'flatten' the region where they suspect the opposition fighters might be in order to prevent them getting very far, even if it involves risking injury to the captured soldier - in other words, they're happy to sacrifice the captured soldier to prevent him being used as a bargaining chip or in enemy propaganda.

A few days ago, Hamas claimed they had an IDF soldier and even shared his name and ID number. Israel denied.
Now, it's the other way arround. I'll believe Israel when they or Hamas show evidence of that. Looks like another "excuse" to continue the slaughter.

Not talking about the huge amount of palestinian casualties... I wonder if the lives of Israeli soldiers who have already died will bring something good to the near future.
 
Interesting theory. Why do you think this?

Considering the parallels between the Israel vs Palestine conflict and the Troubles in Northern Ireland, after the massacre of 14 civil rights marchers by British troops in the Northern Irish city of Derry, IRA recruitment shot up. The soldiers who opened fire on these innocent, peaceful protesters were exonerated. It doesn't take much to imagine that the average young man from the Irish nationalist community would take up arms because in his mind, the British have declared war on him and his family.

Is it hard to imagine that when his family and/or friends have been bombed out of their homes, that the average young man in Gaza would think of taking up arms against Israel?
 
Can you give us some proof of that?
I don't doubt it.

The only thing I would disagree with in @Tornado's post is in the use of the word indiscriminate - Israel's targeting of these places is anything but indiscriminate.

Who is to blame for the killing of refugees and UN staff when these places are attacked?

The short answer is that both Hamas and Israel are, and both of them should be held to account under international law and stand trial for war crimes. Something tells me that isn't going to happen. What I don't know is why the UN cannot send peacekeepers/armed forces into there to force Hamas out of UN compounds, secure these areas and protect civilians when their own government cannot/will not do it. Of course, the reasons are probably pretty simple - they're not welcome; it's too dangerous etc..
 
I don't doubt it.

The only thing I would disagree with in @Tornado's post is in the use of the word indiscriminate - Israel's targeting of these places is anything but indiscriminate.

Who is to blame for the killing of refugees and UN staff when these places are attacked?

The short answer is that both Hamas and Israel are, and both of them should be held to account under international law and stand trial for war crimes. Something tells me that isn't going to happen. What I don't know is why the UN cannot send peacekeepers/armed forces into there to force Hamas out of UN compounds, secure these areas and protect civilians when their own government cannot/will not do it. Of course, the reasons are probably pretty simple - they're not welcome; it's too dangerous etc..
Either way i haven't seen a single confirmation that Hamas intentionally place weapons or people in Hospitals and UN facilities so far in the international press, apart from sources copied from Israeli media. So i'd like to see something like that if people insist on using this as factual.
 
Shell.JPG



Message on 'Israeli shell to Gaza' reads: 'That's for cancelling the Backstreet Boys, you scum!'


2 nice comments:

"when you Hate and disrespect your enemy to the point of insanity, you have already lost the fight..."

"they should be thanking them instead..." (cancelling BSB).
 
Moments ago a stern-faced Wolf Blitzer accused Hamas of stashing and using "tranquilizers" in tunnels in order to capture Israelis. OMFG, tranquilizers, the newest terror weapon?
 
Either way i haven't seen a single confirmation that Hamas intentionally place weapons or people in Hospitals and UN facilities so far in the international press, apart from sources copied from Israeli media. So i'd like to see something like that if people insist on using this as factual.
Do you mean that Hamas are accidentally using UN facilities (I seriously doubt that), that they are using UN facilities oblivious to the risk that poses to the refugees inside (I seriously doubt that too) or that they are using UN facilities knowing full well the risk to refugees but in the misguided belief that Israel will not attack them (again, this is hard to believe). There is no doubt that they are using UN facilities (http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press...placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools) - I cannot see how it is even remotely possible that the militants are not aware that these are UN facilities, especially when the UN are telling them to stop doing it.

My bet (and I stand to be corrected on this) is that the truth is none of the above, and @Tornado is bang on the money. The militants know full well that these are UN facilities, and they know full well that Israel will attack them and kill innocent people, which will bring negative publicity upon Israel for doing so - that is exactly what is happening, is it not? And who dies - non-combatants and UN staff... and who benefits from Israel being scolded by the international community?
 
What I don't know is why the UN cannot send peacekeepers/armed forces into there to force Hamas out of UN compounds, secure these areas and protect civilians when their own government cannot/will not do it.

Likely because the use of armed force would require a resolution of the Security Council, which the US, Russia or other ally of Israel would veto.
 
I doubt it. I think most people, especially muslims, are scared to say this out loud. I also do not say this to my grandma, grandpa and so on because that would brake their hearts. But it is what it is, religions are almost the reason why people kill each other. And to be honest, looking even 100 years back, the christians were no better. They killed millions and millions of humans in christian history.

I believe in something, in an bigger force (I hope thats the right english word), in something we call god, the universe, whatever...
But now the christians are the people that are hosting milions of muslims in their Western countries. Giving them high payed jobs and a different life style than constantly thinking about how to kill the most christians possible with a suicide bomb.

Seems like you are starting using your brain, I really hope the new generations of muslims will filter out the madness of the extremism and will start thinking with their brain and their common sense.
 
Do you mean that Hamas are accidentally using UN facilities (I seriously doubt that), that they are using UN facilities oblivious to the risk that poses to the refugees inside (I seriously doubt that too) or that they are using UN facilities knowing full well the risk to refugees but in the misguided belief that Israel will not attack them (again, this is hard to believe). There is no doubt that they are using UN facilities (http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press...placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools) - I cannot see how it is even remotely possible that the militants are not aware that these are UN facilities, especially when the UN are telling them to stop doing it.

My bet (and I stand to be corrected on this) is that the truth is none of the above, and @Tornado is bang on the money. The militants know full well that these are UN facilities, and they know full well that Israel will attack them and kill innocent people, which will bring negative publicity upon Israel for doing so - that is exactly what is happening, is it not? And who dies - non-combatants and UN staff... and who benefits from Israel being scolded by the international community?
Thanks for the link 👍 that's the first such article i've seen so far.

Edit: read over the article again and have to retract what i just said.
 
The wording in the article is a little misleading, but the title of the article (note that it is published by UNRWA themselves) is "UNRWA Condemns Placement of Rockets, for a Second Time, in One of Its Schools" and, while it does say the school was vacant, I presume this meant that there were no refugees in there at the time - but there was UN staff in there apparently, as it does say that UN staff were withdrawn from the premises. Either way, it's a violation of international law and it is very, very unlikely that the militants responsible were unaware that the place was a UN facility. A point I made earlier was about what the UN can safely do to prevent militants from doing whatever they want - probably not very much.
 
No, it was an UNRWA school - the wording in the article is a little misleading, but the title of the article (note that it is published by UNRWA themselves) is "UNRWA Condemns Placement of Rockets, for a Second Time, in One of Its Schools" and, while it does say the school was vacant, I presume this meant that there were no refugees in there at the time - but there was UN staff in there apparently, as it does say that UN staff were withdrawn from the premises. Either way, it's a violation of international law and it is very, very unlikely that the militants responsible were unaware that the place was a UN facility. A point I made earlier was about what the UN can safely do to prevent militants from doing whatever they want - probably not very much.
Edited my post, had to read over the article twice to get it as they mentioned "vacant school in between". It was on the premises indeed.
 



Beautiful dream of Israel has become a nightmare

As a Jewish youngster growing up in Budapest, an infant survivor of the Nazi genocide, I was for years haunted by a question resounding in my brain with such force that sometimes my head would spin: “How was it possible? How could the world have let such horrors happen?

It was a naïve question, that of a child. I know better now: such is reality. Whether in Vietnam or Rwanda or Syria, humanity stands by either complicitly or unconsciously or helplessly, as it always does. In Gaza today we find ways of justifying the bombing of hospitals, the annihilation of families at dinner, the killing of pre-adolescents playing soccer on a beach.

In Israel-Palestine the powerful party has succeeded in painting itself as the victim, while the ones being killed and maimed become the perpetrators. “They don’t care about life,” Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says, abetted by the Obamas and Harpers of this world, “we do.” Netanyahu, you who with surgical precision slaughter innocents, the young and the old, you who have cruelly blockaded Gaza for years, starving it of necessities, you who deprive Palestinians of more and more of their land, their water, their crops, their trees — you care about life?

There is no understanding Gaza out of context — Hamas rockets or unjustifiable terrorist attacks on civilians — and that context is the longest ongoing ethnic cleansing operation in the recent and present centuries, the ongoing attempt to destroy Palestinian nationhood.

The Palestinians use tunnels? So did my heroes, the poorly armed fighters of the Warsaw Ghetto. Unlike Israel, Palestinians lack Apache helicopters, guided drones, jet fighters with bombs, laser-guided artillery. Out of impotent defiance, they fire inept rockets, causing terror for innocent Israelis but rarely physical harm. With such a gross imbalance of power, there is no equivalence of culpability.

Israel wants peace? Perhaps, but as the veteran Israeli journalist Gideon Levy has pointed out, it does not want a just peace. Occupation and creeping annexation, an inhumane blockade, the destruction of olive groves, the arbitrary imprisonment of thousands, torture, daily humiliation of civilians, house demolitions: these are not policies compatible with any desire for a just peace. In Tel Aviv Gideon Levy now moves around with a bodyguard, the price of speaking the truth.

I have visited Gaza and the West Bank. I saw multi-generational Palestinian families weeping in hospitals around the bedsides of their wounded, at the graves of their dead. These are not people who do not care about life. They are like us — Canadians, Jews, like anyone: they celebrate life, family, work, education, food, peace, joy. And they are capable of hatred, they can harbour vengeance in the hearts, just like we can.

One could debate details, historical and current, back and forth. Since my days as a young Zionist and, later, as a member of Jews for a Just Peace, I have often done so. I used to believe that if people knew the facts, they would open to the truth. That, too, was naïve. This issue is far too charged with emotion. As the spiritual teacher Eckhart Tolle has pointed out, the accumulated mutual pain in the Middle East is so acute, “a significant part of the population finds itself forced to act it out in an endless cycle of perpetration and retribution.”

“People’s leaders have been misleaders, so they that are led have been confused,” in the words of the prophet Jeremiah. The voices of justice and sanity are not heeded. Netanyahu has his reasons. Harper and Obama have theirs.

And what shall we do, we ordinary people? I pray we can listen to our hearts. My heart tells me that “never again” is not a tribal slogan, that the murder of my grandparents in Auschwitz does not justify the ongoing dispossession of Palestinians, that justice, truth, peace are not tribal prerogatives. That Israel’s “right to defend itself,” unarguable in principle, does not validate mass killing.

A few days ago I met with one of my dearest friends, a comrade from Zionist days and now professor emeritus at an Israeli university. We spoke of everything but the daily savagery depicted on our TV screens. We both feared the rancour that would arise.

But, I want to say to my friend, can we not be sad together at what that beautiful old dream of Jewish redemption has come to? Can we not grieve the death of innocents? I am sad these days. Can we not at least mourn together?


Gabor Maté, M.D., is a Vancouver-based author and speaker.
 
HRW Whitewashes Israel, The Law Supports Hamas: Some Reflections on Israel’s Latest Massacre



Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel appear to be indiscriminate or targeted at civilian population centers,” Human Rights Watch’s first press release stated, “which are war crimes.” On this point, Amnesty concurred. But are projectile attacks by Hamas (used here as short-hand for all Palestinian armed groups) war crimes or even illegal? In fact, the law is more ambiguous than often allowed.

International law prohibits an occupying power from using force to suppress a struggle for self-determination, whereas it does not prohibit a people struggling for self-determination from using force.[1] The International Court of Justice (ICJ) stated in its 2004 advisory opinion that the Palestinian people’s “rights include the right to self-determination,” and that “Israel is bound to comply with its obligation to respect the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination.” Israel consequently has no legal right to use force to suppress the Palestinian self-determination struggle.

--

Although claiming for itself the right of self-defense against Hamas projectiles, in fact Israel is claiming the right to maintain the occupation. [... ]The refrain that Israel has the right to self-defense is a red herring: the real question is, Does Israel have the right to use force to maintain an illegal occupation? The answer is no. "

--

One might legitimately question the political prudence of Hamas’s strategy. But the law is not unambiguously against it, while the scales of morality weigh in its favor. Israel has imposed a brutal blockade on Gaza. Fully ninety-five percent of the water in Gaza is unfit for human consumption. By all accounts, the Palestinian people now stand behind those engaging in belligerent reprisals against Israel. In the Gaza Strip, they prefer to die resisting than to continue living under an inhuman blockade. Their resistance is mostly notional, as makeshift projectiles cause little damage. So, the ultimate question is, Do Palestinians have the right to symbolically resist slow death punctuated by periodic massacres, or must they lie down and die?"
Nice post
 
But now the christians are the people that are hosting milions of muslims in their Western countries. Giving them high payed jobs and a different life style than constantly thinking about how to kill the most christians possible with a suicide bomb.

Seems like you are starting using your brain, I really hope the new generations of muslims will filter out the madness of the extremism and will start thinking with their brain and their common sense.

Not even 0.1% of the Muslims are extremists or want to kill Christians. You are a great example of how people get victims of this exteme anti Islam propaganda.

The USA always used that way. They always need an "main" enemy image. The black people, then the Japanese, then the Russians, Vietnam and now Muslims. So they can hide their own crimes and play the world police.
 
The USA always used that way. They always need an "main" enemy image. The black people, then the Japanese, then the Russians, Vietnam and now Muslims. So they can hide their own crimes and play the world police.
We are taught to see things in terms of black and white, not shades of gray.
Those of us reading Game of Thrones are in recovery. :)
 
DK
Considering the parallels between the Israel vs Palestine conflict and the Troubles in Northern Ireland, after the massacre of 14 civil rights marchers by British troops in the Northern Irish city of Derry, IRA recruitment shot up. The soldiers who opened fire on these innocent, peaceful protesters were exonerated. It doesn't take much to imagine that the average young man from the Irish nationalist community would take up arms because in his mind, the British have declared war on him and his family.

Is it hard to imagine that when his family and/or friends have been bombed out of their homes, that the average young man in Gaza would think of taking up arms against Israel?

I didn't realize that the IRA was fighting to reclaim their holy land.
 
I didn't realize that the IRA was fighting to reclaim their holy land.

Well, they were fighting to reclaim land they saw (and still see) as Irish, not holy. I was just trying to say that what's happening right now is just going to push at least some Palestinians further away from wanting a peaceful solution to the conflict, just as the Bloody Sunday massacre pushed some Irish nationalists away from the civil rights groups and into the ranks of the IRA.
 
DK
Considering the parallels between the Israel vs Palestine conflict and the Troubles in Northern Ireland, after the massacre of 14 civil rights marchers by British troops in the Northern Irish city of Derry, IRA recruitment shot up. The soldiers who opened fire on these innocent, peaceful protesters were exonerated. It doesn't take much to imagine that the average young man from the Irish nationalist community would take up arms because in his mind, the British have declared war on him and his family.

Is it hard to imagine that when his family and/or friends have been bombed out of their homes, that the average young man in Gaza would think of taking up arms against Israel?

Raid Issa, an artist who has exhibited worldwide and won artist-in-residence fellowships in France and Switzerland.

"I earn a living from my drawings and now they’re all buried beneath the ruins.

My oldest son, aged 4, asked me, ‘When are we going home?’” Raid Issa said. “I took him to the ruined house. He asked me, ‘Daddy, who broke the house?’ I told him the planes of the Israelis. He asked me why, and I told him they ‘broke’ ours like they broke others."

And then he said: ‘I’ll break the Israelis’ house like they broke my house.
 
DK
Well, they were fighting to reclaim land they saw (and still see) as Irish, not holy. I was just trying to say that what's happening right now is just going to push at least some Palestinians further away from wanting a peaceful solution to the conflict, just as the Bloody Sunday massacre pushed some Irish nationalists away from the civil rights groups and into the ranks of the IRA.

The original claim (not yours) was that Hamas would not have backing if Israel never responded. The fundamental assumption there is that this is a blood war only, not a holy war. I think that the suggestion is naive.
 
Not even 0.1% of the Muslims are extremists or want to kill Christians. You are a great example of how people get victims of this exteme anti Islam propaganda.

The USA always used that way. They always need an "main" enemy image. The black people, then the Japanese, then the Russians, Vietnam and now Muslims. So they can hide their own crimes and play the world police.
I work with muslims here and i know the only thing they care is finding all the ways to exploit laws and evade taxes (as much as the worse italians). I can tell you this for personal experience. When they want to leave a job they make resignation without notice than employ each other for a week or a month as "domestic worker" with a fake contract only to get access of social subsidies, as soon as the application is accepted they go back in their country while still being paid by Italy, if they get asked to show passport they always say they lost it. And this is only the tip of the iceberg. I don't even tell you how they sub rents home to immigrants without documents...
 
I work with muslims here and i know the only thing they care is finding all the ways to exploit laws and evade taxes (as much as the worse italians). I can tell you this for personal experience. When they want to leave a job they make resignation without notice than employ each other for a week or a month as "domestic worker" with a fake contract only to get access of social subsidies, as soon as the application is accepted they go back in their country while still being paid by Italy, if they get asked to show passport they always say they lost it. And this is only the tip of the iceberg. I don't even tell you how they sub rents home to immigrants without documents...

Thanks for the heads up, I'll make sure to treat any muslims I run into as if what you said applied to them.
 
Wow incredible how people judge others by their religion. As there are no other people who try to avoid taxes. Do most of the biggest US companies not avoid paying taxes by outsourcing their offices to so called tax paradises? Google, Apple, Microsoft... But yeah, the muslims are guilty for all the pain in this world...

This talk is getting insanely stupid and most of you are victims of all the propaganda that is going on. I´m out of this because I know I can´t change your minds. If CNN says muslims are bad, than this must be true. Burn em all...

It is difficult for me to describe this now in english. But for me, I see the world as a neutral place where animals, plants, humans and everything else lives together. For me, there is no nationality or religion. For me, there are humans. Every human is equal to the others. Every life counts as much as other lifes. No US life is more worth than an life in Gaza, as much as people think it is so.

The human ego is the problem of this world. They invent stuff like religion, nationality, patriotism and start wars because of all this ****. I hope the human race gets enlighted soon. Before they bomb each other to the last war, a nuclear war. And than it´s over.

Or have you seen a bear or another animal, calling himself, I am a canadian bear, go out you mofo US bear. They may have their territories. But they don´t fight each other for stupid inventions.

I´m out, bomb each other, kill eacht other, judge each other, do whatever you people want.
 
All people have the same rights but all people are not equal.

I agree with your point about judging the tax evading scoundrels lol, anyone is capable of that. Race, Creed, Religion, whatever, aside.
 
Wow incredible how people judge others by their religion. As there are no other people who try to avoid taxes. Do most of the biggest US companies not avoid paying taxes by outsourcing their offices to so called tax paradises? Google, Apple, Microsoft... But yeah, the muslims are guilty for all the pain in this world...
I judge other by facts and a fact is the 95% of muslims I know act like that. I don't give a damn about what CNN says I'm talking about my experience. If you are going to complain because I complained keep in mind these people should always be greateful that Europe has accepted them and they should act like honest people instead of trying to exploit everything. Remember every single euro they steal is at the expense of EU citizens, not big corporations like Google Apple Microsoft... Now what if a christian try to do the same in a muslim country of your choice? They will kill me or cut an hand. This is what you need to keep in mind.
 
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