Israel - Palestine discussion thread

HKS racer
I judge other by facts and a fact is the 95% of muslims I know act like that. I don't give a damn about what CNN says I'm talking about my experience. If you are going to complain because I complained keep in mind these people should always be greateful that Europe has accepted them and they should act like honest people instead of trying to exploit everything.
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TenEightyOne
That seems perfectly reasonable, how many muslims do you know? Just trying to get a handle on the actual numbers.
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HKS racer
About 2500 people.
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So 2375 of the Muslims you know (or thereabouts) are the apparently-despicable creatures you described earlier. I can't go against your experience on that, I have to take you at your word.

Out of roughly 1.6 billion people I'm still not sure you know enough to extrapolate your thinking across every single Muslim in the world. It feels like you're doing that in my opinion, is that a fair inference?

I saw a dog on TV that could say "sausages" whenever it saw Esther Rantzen. That was a very specific dog responding to the ongoing action/reward dynamic of a given setting. Just saying. Funny old dog that was, really.
 
TenEightyOne
So 2375 of the Muslims you know (or thereabouts) are the apparently-despicable creatures you described earlier. I can't go against your experience on that, I have to take you at your word.

Out of roughly 1.6 billion people I'm still not sure you know enough to extrapolate your thinking across every single Muslim in the world. It feels like you're doing that in my opinion, is that a fair inference?

I saw a dog on TV that could say "sausages" whenever it saw Esther Rantzen. That was a very specific dog responding to the ongoing action/reward dynamic of a given setting. Just saying. Funny old dog that was, really.
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The thing is I didn't see a funny old dog on TV I saw real people of different muslim countries in real world. And I'm curious to know if they do the same in other countries.
 
zzz_pt
Next time I'll find a video containing "a good perspective". It's easier and I don't have to write anything. If you were really interested in debating the "solutions" instead of jumping on evertthing I say as irrelevant, you would understand that what I've said was not a "final" or "magical" solution but a simple comparison between the bases of a 1 state solution vs a 2 state solution. And I focused only in the side of religious differences because in both sides people there are strong believers or fundamentalists.


It's always easy to criticize then to add something relevant.
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Okay if that helps you convey your point then do that, what ever works to help you divulge what you think is best do that instead and then we can move to a faster understanding rather than the circular back and forth. Also drop the attitude it's a debate don't take it personally, I know you feel invested to this for some reason, but at the end of the day you arguing here is only going to influence the people who may read and agree or disagree to come up with a stance. No where do I say everything you post is irrelevant but it's not impartial.

For the religion part it would seem one group is far more fundamentalist about it than the other.


Citation needed.

I'm obligated to respond to you because you make claims about what I've said that are uttelry made up. And if you like to wave with the AUP and call a mod, then aply the same standard to yourself and provide me with all the claims you've been making about me. I'm still waiting for citations where I say to anyone that their sources are "yellow paper" journalism or pro-zionism or pro-israel, etc.
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No there isn't and if you believe a citation on my impression of the context of how you present information and view on this subject then I think you don't understand how citations work. You claimed you are for the Palestinian people first and foremost, correct? So if this is your claim as you've said then that strikes me as some humanitarian who wants the violence to stop (which I'm sure we all do). When you decided to take up the gauntlet and demonize Israel more so than anything else you're telling us you have an understanding of this complex world view and it's led you to believe that Israel are mere bullies raining fire and hell down on simple people with nothing but stones.

Also when you state things on how if your child died you'd join Hamas, as if that's the correct way to combat either an accident or casualty of war. So you'd support the terror extreme that your supposed world view tells you to hate. A group with suicide bombers and plans to commit acts that if achieved would do far more damage than anything that has been done in the region...?

Or and since you'll claim source material for this I've taken the liberty to post the quotes here that allowed me to formulate these bits of text.
Joining Hamas: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/israel-attacks-gaza.268128/page-14#post-9887861
In this same post you also reference the cheering of Israeli's which up to that point had been shown from Twitter feeds. So there is where my twitter comment comes from.

zzz_pt said
I can pick a side yes. Israel has 1 innocent casualty. Palestine has over 500 inocent people death, being +80 children, and over 3500 injured. I have no problem picking a side in this particular situation.
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World View: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/israel-attacks-gaza.268128/page-16#post-9892416


I gave you a source. Your last quote are you now going to claim it is a misquote?

I'll give it again:
What's wrong with anti-zionism? What's wrong with anti-racism? You can back check everything I post. It's OK for me. Now you go and claim that "I paint EVERYTHING YOU ALL POST is pro-western yellow paper rhetoric for Israel that has tons of convolution". Can you give any examle? Wouldn't be hard to find, since I say EVERYTHING every single person post as a source is BS.
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Here are these: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/israel-attacks-gaza.268128/page-19#post-9900667
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/israel-attacks-gaza.268128/page-24#post-9911115 (this one where you claim that all media is bias, but though it biased the selection you picked that was questioned is fine...)

I've taken efforts to avoid and only use material that isn't of Islamic and Jewish backed sites, but because an author in the states may be Jewish (many are), they're disbarred from being used too?

Then, don't make false assumptions. If you don't know, ask it. Making stupid jokes about it won't help.
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I never made a false assumption, nor did I ever say you had a twitter account. What I said was you were willing to use social media posts as a source of news. Social media is an easy place to pass off false information more so than supposed bias journalist claim you made. Like the Slate article that I posted whose author was of Jewish back ground and to you automatically means he has an investment/bias in Israel. However, that's just an easy way to not argue the subject. I mean there are Jews that openly don't have an interest in what Israel is doing as you've shown, do they have to be fully opposed to Israel before writing an article like the one I posted from Slate?

I used or liked or followed what? Be precise and give specific examples if you want to acuse me of anything. You can't get away with false claims and then expect not to be called dishonest. I didn't post it nor liked it. I've wrote about it in some of my posts as being an example of how some israeli people are dealing with the conflict.
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So you didn't post the Instagram image of a supposed Israeli sniper targeting a supposed innocent Palestinian as another method to demonize Israel? That's social media. Or how about suggesting Facebook news.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/israel-attacks-gaza.268128/page-21#post-9903131


What is happening to Israel that can you claim is "the same" as what is happening in Gaza?
The same? Source needed.
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Surely you're not going to be that shallow, the degree as I expressed and most have is different but as @Danoff puts it best and others is basically the same.

You have to control yourself under the AUP but you're failing at it. I've said I wouldn't give you a source because you've been failing to give me proofs of your accusations against me. Every post you make has another claim about me that I'll ask you to prove it and you simply ignore it. If you stop for a second and read your claims about me maybe you'll get to the conlusion why I didn't gave you the source you asked because you didn't gave me the citations I asked for. You can't make things up about what I have not said and then ignore it when I ask you to prove it.
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It's ironic because @TenEightyOne made a post on the religious thread that you agreed with by liking that talked about what I just said in my last post. I've given my impression of how you act and hardly any outright "this is who you are verbatim" examples. You gave something that would require something definitive like an outside source and you refused on the grounds of I supposedly don't do it so you shouldn't. Even though I just said if I reference something (not your character) that seems to need a reference then ask.

I want you to explain you false claims about what I've posted. The only references or sources would be easy for you to find, since they're all in this thread.
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This made no sense.

Citations needed. Again, you're making things up. Give me examples or you'll be broking the AUP by lying. You've said that I've been saying that EVERY source people give are BS (not paraphrasing). So, I ask you to give me examples. I've said that your source in that particular link to the death rates was a jew journalist and it was comprehensible why he would be pro-israel. You've failed to provide the other huge amount of posts where I've said the same about other sources.

BTW, If anything I say is incorrect, I would like for someone to point it out to me, as I've said in other ocasions.
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First off the Slate article I gave had examples that were reported in here to some extents like for example the fact that Israel warned in advance for citizens to leave areas (re-read page 13). However, you already seemed to not believe this early on well before I posted the article.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/israel-attacks-gaza.268128/page-15#post-9892112, post from that user after I agree where inane but that one post at least has realism to it as journalist have been reporting. So either you disagree with the idea they are warning for areas that may come under attack or they're not.



You continuely seem to believe or give the impression that Jewish attacks or "terror" have been going on long before Hamas came about. However, Hamas has shown a great disdain toward Israel as far back as the 80s as I can find.
http://www.adl.org/anti-semitism/muslim-arab-world/c/hamas-in-their-own-words.html



When provoked? Who's provoking whom? People like you say they aren't biased but always portrait Israel as the one being provoked and the one that is responding, ignoring the everyday life that palestinians live under israeli occupation, opression and torture (innocent people) when Hamas isn't even launching rockets. Before this "war" started, there was already a "war" in the streets in the West Bank.
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What torture and oppression? You'd think that a nation that holds such diversity in their own borders would do the same to others there and not just in Gaza. And why is it only Gaza if the idea of Palestinians is so infuriating why isn't the West Bank being treated like Gaza right now? Or is that two months from now and then back to Gaza?

What it seems to me is that Israel is just one big bully to you and thus no one really starts anything with Israel it's just a fairy tale concocted by them to the international stage. I mean let's ignore Hamas doctrine that calls to kill Israelis at all cost even if it means the death of it's own

Or this:

Or this:

And many others like this.

Go read one of my first posts in the thread. July 19. I don't think anyone sane and mentaly coherent will agreed with Hamas extremism. Im not the only one thinking that Israel shouldn't be doing what they've been doing and I don't think the other people support Hamas. I think if you defend Hamas extremism you can't even enter a discussion about this conflict. Happy now? There are other groups /milicias in Gaza that don't fit the Hamas extremism. It's probable that at least a part of those sending rockets and shooting guns are people who were kids in 2004 and lost their families. It's not ALL Hamas. This isn't an excuse, BTW.
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I read all your post hence why I decided to debate you because of the inconsistencies even though you now claim to disregard Hamas for the disservice they've done to their people. Also if it isn't an excuse then what is it, a hypothetical that seems like an excuse?

Well, we disagreed. I can't say that both israeli and palestinians people are equally threatned and that's why I stand for palestinian people. I still condemn Hamas and IDF tough. As I've said severat times, Hamas strategy is simply stupid.
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Sure you can because they are, and anyone is threatened or under threat when someone decided to lob 2500+ rockets at them. Show me a person who hasn't condemned both Hamas and IDF? We all have as far as I see, we just don't accept this idea that only painting Israel as the bad guy and then saying "Hamas strategy is simply stupid" when pressure is right. Why not post condemning both constantly?

Except you did. As you do here as well, claiming I've said things I didn't and claiming I didn't say another things that I did. Must be your "personality".
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No I didn't, and if you can show me from the guns thread as I've done here like you've asked that would be great.

If your distaste of kids dying or anyone else exists, how can you still be in the fence and say you don't stand for the kids that are dying then? It's because you think it's irracional or because you think you'll be biased? I don't get it. If people don't show their support of palestinian people, It's pretty much the same as being in agreement with Israel. How did you see the voting chart in the UN proposal for a inquiry in the Israeli ground invasion and investigation for war crimes? Would you abstain?.
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Uh no...I think that kids and people dying in general is a state of war (and quite sad), and that telling the world how many more civilians died on either side doesn't help the political debate be impartial. The reason is because people tend to play into emotion rather than rational intrigue. Also who isn't showing their support of Palestinian people?

Well I'm not a nation so I can't say if I'd abstain or not, I mean it seems like a loaded question at this point.

And I'll continue to respond when I have time to. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. But we can still disagreed and have a debate. Well, with you is difficult, but generaly speaking we can.
I was expecting you to start the same type of discourse as in other ocasions. But you didn't, which is nice.
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That's fine no one is saying you have to respond right away.

I'l watch it when I have the time.
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Okay
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EDIT: I started this post soon after it was sent (Wednesday late night/early Thursday morning) and made sure to effectively answer all claims that I have been misquoting you. I took from then until now to do this (you'll notice tags which now don't work), so I hope any claims that I've supposedly lied about what you've said have been answered. I've condensed it in respect of the thread not needing that long of a post.
 
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HKS racer
The thing is I didn't see a funny old dog on TV I saw real people of different muslim countries in real world. And I'm curious to know if they do the same in other countries.
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I am a Muslim, from and living in Bahrain. All I'm going to say is the fact that every Muslim is different, just like every human being is different. It all comes down to how they were raised, what cultures they were exposed to and whether or not their families and communities thought that stealing/evading taxes was taboo or not.

Just because a handful of Muslims that you know seem to try to find ways around taxes and/or looking for ways to steal DOES NOT mean that the same goes to all other Muslims.

This can be applied to Christians, Jews, Atheists, Hindus, Buddhists etc.

Anyways, back to Israel and Gaza


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article-2233248-1609BA16000005DC-133_964x620.jpg
 
HKS racer
I judge other by facts and a fact is the 95% of muslims I know act like that. I don't give a damn about what CNN says I'm talking about my experience. If you are going to complain because I complained keep in mind these people should always be greateful that Europe has accepted them and they should act like honest people instead of trying to exploit everything. Remember every single euro they steal is at the expense of EU citizens, not big corporations like Google Apple Microsoft... Now what if a christian try to do the same in a muslim country of your choice? They will kill me or cut an hand. This is what you need to keep in mind.
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So by your logic, I must think 95% of Italians are like Berlusconi?
 
Yeah, well, if we're to start with generalizations based on a defined group of persons we actually know, I'll say jews are greedy and racist people, black people tend to be burglars or drug dealers that don't like to work, gipsies are violent people you can't trust, brits are slimey SOBs with the lower class being mostly football hooligans and daily fail readers, the middle class being dull and lazy and the upper class twits being ... well ... mostly *****.

Did I forget anyone? Oh yeah, italians are a disorganized bunch of wannabe romans of old, XXIst century germans are finantial nazis trying to create a 1000 year IV bloody Reich. French are wannabe germans and in fact from all the european peoples I think only the Portuguese, the Spanish, the Irish and the Scottish are generally nice.

Of course, if I pick different people i also know personally to assess my view on different nationalities and cultural/racial backgrounds, I might write the exact oppposite of what's above. Especially about the Portuguese :lol:


EDIT - wow, I didn't know the word caught by the automatic censorship was that bad ... I'll leave it there so the mods may assess the seriousness of my AUP violation.
 
prisonermonkeys
I know enough about Israel and Palestine to know that I don't know anything. But I found this to make for interesting reading:

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/mh17-gaza-and-the-value-of-human-life-20140724-zw8jn.html
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Good read, he's absolutely right though i've been thinking that for a long time myself already. Didn't know the Egyptian press was so pro Israel neither.

We only value the lives of persons like ourselves, as their deaths confronts us with what might have been ours. Whilst 5-10 time that figure of people getting slaughtered in Africa, Palestine, Iraq leaves us cold and barely make the headlines.

I do see a shift though, the outcry in the media and from the UN regarding what is happening in Gaza is a lot stronger than in the past 10 years when this also occurred over there regularly, so that's a positive sign if there ever is one in this conflict.
 
mister dog
Good read, he's absolutely right though i've been thinking that for a long time myself already.
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I'm not a follower of any particular political commentators - if anything, I actively avoid them, given that the sector is dominated by the likes of Andrew Bolt and Miranda Devine - but I'm increasingly becoming a fan of Waleed Aly.
 
Blitz24
My point being THIS portion from the article:

The Israeli military said gunmen had fired mortar bombs from near the school and it returned fire in response.
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Why is Hamas firing from/near schools now? Or does that question immediately get lost in the sea of hate.
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Yes you're right; the Israeli military is a very reliable source in these cases 👍
 
mister dog
Yes you're right; the Israeli military is a very reliable source in these cases 👍
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Actually, it's more of a proof that Israel is going about it the wrong way AND that Hamas doesn't care about any sort of retaliation, because in the public eye, Israel loses regardless.
 
Blitz24
Actually, it's more of a proof that Israel is going about it the wrong way AND that Hamas doesn't care about any sort of retaliation, because in the public eye, Israel loses regardless.
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That quote from them about Hamas provoking it doesn't hold any relevance whatsoever with me, of course they are going to say that if they realized they ****ed up. Get me an independent source and i will believe you.
 
Because firing rockets indiscriminately into a neighboring country clearly doesn't mean that the one firing rockets is at fault.
 
Blitz24
Actually, it's more of a proof that Israel is going about it the wrong way AND that Hamas doesn't care about any sort of retaliation, because in the public eye, Israel loses regardless.
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We're increasingly seeing the disconnect of zionist/jew similar to Islamist/muslim. Zionists aren't bothered that anti semitic attacks are increasing all over Europe similar to Hamas not caring about the consequences of firing rockets from civilian areas.
 
Blitz24
Because firing rockets indiscriminately into a neighboring country clearly doesn't mean that the one firing rockets is at fault.
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You just changed the topic here trying to avoid the matter at hand; you doubted the article i posted on the grounds that "the israely military" said they were shelled from the area, but i hope you do have the frame of mind to realize that's not an independent source at all?
 
Hun200kmh
Yeah, well, if we're to start with generalizations based on a defined group of persons we actually know, I'll say jews are greedy and racist people, black people tend to be burglars or drug dealers that don't like to work, gipsies are violent people you can't trust, brits are slimey SOBs with the lower class being mostly football hooligans and daily fail readers, the middle class being dull and lazy and the upper class twits being ... well ... mostly *****.

Did I forget anyone? Oh yeah, italians are a disorganized bunch of wannabe romans of old, XXIst century germans are finantial nazis trying to create a 1000 year IV bloody Reich. French are wannabe germans and in fact from all the european peoples I think only the Portuguese, the Spanish, the Irish and the Scottish are generally nice.

Of course, if I pick different people i also know personally to assess my view on different nationalities and cultural/racial backgrounds, I might write the exact oppposite of what's above. Especially about the Portuguese :lol:


EDIT - wow, I didn't know the word caught by the automatic censorship was that bad ... I'll leave it there so the mods may assess the seriousness of my AUP violation.
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You forgot, uh, Arabs, and also Asians, Russians, etc.

Ting is though, if you generalize some etnics/race/nationalities/mentalities, you have to spare it on yourself, else you can be perceived as racists/biased. Not you though in this case :D
 
HKS racer
I judge other by facts and a fact is the 95% of muslims I know act like that. I don't give a damn about what CNN says I'm talking about my experience. If you are going to complain because I complained keep in mind these people should always be greateful that Europe has accepted them and they should act like honest people instead of trying to exploit everything. Remember every single euro they steal is at the expense of EU citizens, not big corporations like Google Apple Microsoft... Now what if a christian try to do the same in a muslim country of your choice? They will kill me or cut an hand. This is what you need to keep in mind.
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Probably wiser to ask me first since im muslim myself and live in the most populated moslems before making such generalization. But then again it belonged in another thread.

Muslim are no better/worse than any other religions and also my Grandfather whose an imam condemned any terrorist activities if you really want an emphasis.
 

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