Israel - Palestine discussion thread

[LeoStrop]

Since people don't believe in the roof knock and warning given to "civilians" on the ground in Gaza here is a first hand video from CNN. I'd also like to note the precision of these bombs as well when you look at it hitting the target and thus not taking out the buildings next to it (being too big of a payload), and traffic going along as normal just to the left as the bomb hits. It was also reported that the knock (which didn't do any damage to the building it seems) came and then seven minutes later as Israel has been claiming did the actual strike come down.

I think you forgot the video. But here is one very clear. The real attack came 1:10 min later.( or at least it look like it, but i can't say if the video was edited or not)



I have seen a couple of those videos, the last one in a hospital with several patients inside, the knock warning made a hole on the wall, so there is little damage.

Edit: Here is one more, the real attack came 1 min later so i think this should be the average warning time

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

And if the U.S. did not give permission?



Forgot the link?

That I did thanks

EDIT:

Here it is

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/world/2014/08/10/nr-lkl-savidge-gaza-airstrikes.cnn.html

In regards to this post:

Since people don't believe in the roof knock and warning given to "civilians" on the ground in Gaza here is a first hand video from CNN. I'd also like to note the precision of these bombs as well when you look at it hitting the target and thus not taking out the buildings next to it (being too big of a payload), and traffic going along as normal just to the left as the bomb hits. It was also reported that the knock (which didn't do any damage to the building it seems) came and then seven minutes later as Israel has been claiming did the actual strike come down.

 

[squadops]

👍

 

[VolkswagenX]

http://m.truthdig.com/report/item/why_israel_lies_20140803

 

[Vegard]

http://m.truthdig.com/report/item/why_israel_lies_20140803

Good article. I enjoy Hedges a lot 👍

 

[ToyGTone]

The whole Palestine and israel war is like two kids whining, moaning about a thing and just some fighting like kids. They are all just some stupid kids who just can't live with each other in piece.

Drunken idiots. Yeah lets go kill each other just because of different races. And daily alot of people dies also kids and no one gives a **** and then a plane crash (rarely happened) with 200+ dies and its all over the news.

I'm laughing at those people. What you could do about that? Send some unclear bombs? Oh how about killing powerless kids and say we are the most strongest people in earth.

 

[TenEightyOne]

The whole Palestine and israel war is like two kids whining, moaning about a thing,,,fighting like kids...just some stupid kids who just can't live with each other in piece...drunken idiots...yeah lets go kill each other just because of different races...and daily alot of people dies also kids and no one gives a **** and then a plane crash (rarely happened) with 200+ dies and its all over the news.

I'm laughing at those people. What you could do about that? Send some unclear bombs?

I think we've got an unclear bomb right here, but which wire to cut? Probably the mains...

You think it's just because of different races? Okay, how old is Israel as an actual country?

 

[Stylel_Code]

Israel continuously bombed Palestine at the beginning. The 3 days "cease-fire" can not exist if Israel continued their embargo on Palestine. Sources:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/17/israeli-military-calorie-limit-gaza

http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/ocha_opt_gaza_blockade_map_june_2012_english.pdf

http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...music-and-clothes-from-entering-gaza-1.276147

Hamas and its people has all the rights to defend themself. As well, Hamas responded by shooting on israel with their low quality roquets which do not kill anyone. Their aim is not to kill civilians as suggest some people, this is not their aim. They propose self defence against Israel, which means that it is a war, and Hamas responds to Israel. They first of all want to destroy Israel's infrastructure, not the civilians, for example when they tried to shoot the Ben Gourion Airport. Although civilians can die, but that isn't their aim, and in a war if an ennemy kills civilians intentionally, the opposite group has all the rights to do the same. While for Israel, while claiming they want to destroy the pseudo terrorists of Hamas, they actually don't. Here are some instructive sources for this:

http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/GazaCrisisAtlas_2014.pdf

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=722484

http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-fired-rockets-for-first-time-since-2012-israeli-officials-say/

http://m.thenation.com/article/180783-five-israeli-talking-points-gaza-debunked

http://m.forward.com/articles/201764/how-politics-and-lies-triggered-an-unintended-war/?p=all

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/18/o...l-the-road-to-war-paved-by-the-west.html?_r=1

Hamas already said that they do not intend to walk through Israel, but they would like Israel to stop their colonisation in the west bank for example. The people of hamas agreed on the cease fire : http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4558451,00.html

But in my opinion, a cease fire can not exist if Israel continues its occupation in Palestine and in Gaza. Israel also broke their own cease fire: http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=720294

Definition of terrorism:
"Collective fear that rules a population to break its resistance; political regime based on fear, on the use of emergency measures "

Terror can be used as a form of government, "allowing the power to break up, by dint of extreme measures and collective fear, those who resist it. "

A terrorist state is a territorially distinct political entity that uses force and violence against other States or their citizens with the intent to intimidate or coerce fully accept its ideology, and thus achieve a dominant position in the world or permanent residence in power in their own country.


The Dahiya Doctrine is a military doctrine formulated by the Israeli General Gadi Eizenkot (in) that relates to the context of asymmetric warfare in urban areas, and prone use of force "disproportionate" in retaliation against civilian areas as a basis enemy attacks, the purpose of deterrence.

This doctrine is named after the Shiite neighborhood of homes of Beirut that housed a Hezbollah stronghold before being razed by Israeli warplanes during the Israeli-Lebanese conflict in 2006.

The first public formulation of this doctrine took place in October 2008, in an interview with Reuters in which General Eizenkot says:

"What happened to the Dahiya quarter of Beirut in 2006 will happen in every village used as a basis to fire against Israel. [...] We will use the disproportionate strength [in these areas], and it will cause great damage and destruction. From our point of view it is not civilian villages but military bases. [...] This is not a recommendation, but a plan, and it was approved. [...] To attack the population is the only way to retain Nasrallah1,2. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dahiya_doctrine

Richard Falk wrote that under the doctrine, "the civilian infrastructure of adversaries such as Hamas or Hezbollah are treated as permissible military targets, which is not only an overt violation of the most elementary norms of the law of war and of universal morality, but an avowal of a doctrine of violence that needs to be called by its proper name: state terrorism."
http://richardfalk.wordpress.com/20...l-protests-along-the-road-of-state-terrorism/


"The number of incidents, in addition to the large number of civilian deaths, cancel the finding [Israeli] that all necessary precautions have been taken to protect the lives of civilians."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2702485/Israel-investigated-war-crimes-Gaza-UN-says.html

"The strategies used by Israeli forces in the Gaza offensive are consistent with previous practices, as most recently during the Lebanon war in 2006, the concept known as the Dahiya doctrine emerged then, involving the use of disproportionate forces, resulting in huge damage, destruction of property and infrastructure of civilians, as well as suffering of civilians. Having reviewed and verified the facts on the ground force, the Mission finds that it is obviously exactly what has been put into practice. "
http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/12session/A-HRC-12-48.pdf


Terror. Civilians, particularly the kids have always been at the center of Israeli terrorism policy. This is to deter and punish by all means Palestinians of all political or military action. Acceleration of colonization, arbitrary arrests, blind killings, daily humiliation, expropriation, military and judicial cover disgusting abuses by settlers and the army in Palestine.

This policy therefore has two aspects:

A passive aspect of keeping the Palestinians under conditions of appalling life. This is a situation naturally pushes them in the violence as a last resort, violence which is operated diplomatically and militarily against them by the regime of tel aviv.

An active aspect of pushing the army and settlers to decay civilians through provocations, harm to the physical, moral and territorial integrity of the Palestinians. With this in mind the fact to target particular children is an attractive option since the attacks made on them are those that undermine the morale of more civilians. The war that israel leads against the Palestinian population is not only physical and material it is also moral.

This policy allows israel to maintain a diplomatic status that (in the name of war against terrorism, the right to defend themselves and other crap) allowing it to continue quietly settlement with the obvious aim of annexing what remains of Palestine while preventing all his might the creation of a sovereign state.
It also allows the Israeli government in place to maintain itself. Terror is also exerted against Israelis so that they must really believe in death threats and invasion by Hamas.

 

[Carbonox]

Hamas and its people has all the rights to defend themself. As well, Hamas responded by shooting on israel with their low quality roquets which do not kill anyone. Their aim is not to kill civilians as suggest some people, this is not their aim. They propose self defence against Israel, which means that it is a war, and Hamas responds to Israel. They first of all want to destroy Israel's infrastructure, not the civilians, for example when they tried to shoot the Ben Gourion Airport. Although civilians can die, but that isn't their aim, and in a war if an ennemy kills civilians intentionally, the opposite group has all the rights to do the same. While for Israel, while claiming they want to destroy the pseudo terrorists of Hamas, they actually don't. Here are some instructive sources for this:

Hamas has no rights at all, it's a terrorist group. Civilians are a completely different story, but they can't do 🤬 to protect themselves, because otherwise Hamas would kill them for refusing to become bombing victims whose dead bodies would then be shown to all major news channels in the world.

Just one of the many links on the subject...

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-killing-its-own/story-e6frgd0x-1226997934042

 

[Stylel_Code]

Hamas has no rights at all, it's a terrorist group. Civilians are a completely different story, but they can't do 🤬 to protect themselves, because otherwise Hamas would kill them for refusing to become bombing victims whose dead bodies would then be shown to all major news channels in the world.

Just one of the many links on the subject...

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-killing-its-own/story-e6frgd0x-1226997934042

Your source to back up this is completely irrelevant. A reporter has just found only ONE taxi driver who says "EVERYONE" hates Hamas. Excuse me, but this is completely off. Have you not seen in 2006 january that the Hamas won the election by absolute majority? And if you watch how some leaders of Hamas die, all the palestinians surrounding him or them feel sorry for him or them? After every bombs that Israel drops in Palestine, how do people react? In a muslim way by refering to Allah (God). Hamas act exactly the same way.
Also I see you think Hamas is a terrorist group but I really fail to see in which way, while they only defend themself and act in response to the bombs. Just read some sources I posted, maybe you will see.

 

[Carbonox]

Your source to back up this is completely irrelevant. A reporter has just found only ONE taxi driver who says "EVERYONE" hates Hamas. Excuse me, but this is completely off. Have you not seen in 2006 january that the Hamas won the election by absolute majority? And if you watch how some leaders of Hamas die, all the palestinians surrounding him or them feel sorry for him or them? After every bombs that Israel drops in Palestine, how do people react? In a muslim way by refering to Allah (God). Hamas act exactly the same way.
Also I see you think Hamas is a terrorist group but I really fail to see in which way, while they only defend themself and act in response to the bombs. Just read some sources I posted, maybe you will see.

I can easily declare your sources useless too, if you want me to.

I don't "think" they're terrorists - both the US and EU have declared them that. The fact that people voted for them only shows that either the voters are radicals themselves, or they were intimidated into voting Hamas.

 

[Stylel_Code]

I can easily declare your sources useless too, if you want me to.

I don't "think" they're terrorists - both the US and EU have declared them that. The fact that people voted for them only shows that either the voters are radicals themselves, or they were intimidated into voting Hamas.

Them saying Hamas beeing "terrorist" does not surprise me at all. They help Israel since the beginning with money and materials. I do not agree with what they have to say seeing that they will support Israel. I only trust what really happens on the map. And your interpretation for the vote does only concern you, today the the very majority of civilians support Hamas.
And your responses clearly show me you have not read my sources. Though I posted many so that it is clear, but you should read them first and tell me where you clearly disagree on the sources, or I won't respond, because then my posts are partly ignored, including the sources, and this should not happen.

 

[Famine]

Egypt and Jordan - neither particular friends of Israel - also class Hamas as a terrorist organisation.

Also I see you think Hamas is a terrorist group but I really fail to see in which way, while they only defend themself and act in response to the bombs. Just read some sources I posted, maybe you will see.

Deliberately targetting civilians and a nuclear reactor with their rockets is terrorism. Their charter calls for the destruction of Israel and the death of Jews.

In self-defence, of course.

 

[Carbonox]

Them saying Hamas beeing "terrorist" does not surprise me at all. They help Israel since the beginning with money and materials. I do not agree with what they have to say seeing that they will support Israel. I only trust what really happens on the map. And your interpretation for the vote does only concern you, today the the very majority of civilians support Hamas.
And your responses clearly show me you have not read my sources. Though I posted many so that it is clear, but you should read them first and tell me where you clearly disagree on the sources, or I won't respond, because then my posts are partly ignored, including the sources, and this should not happen.

Immediately upon looking at the first link, guess what jumped in front of my eyes? Appeal to emotion.

Sorry, but it's rather hard to argue irrationality with reason.

One link was so blatantly wrong that I can't help but condemn you for finding biased sources without looking information up yourself:

http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-fired-rockets-for-first-time-since-2012-israeli-officials-say/ is what you showed...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2013
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2014

...are what I throw back at ya.

 

[Stylel_Code]

Egypt and Jordan - neither particular friends of Israel - also class Hamas as a terrorist organisation.Deliberately targetting civilians and a nuclear reactor with their rockets is terrorism. Their charter calls for the destruction of Israel and the death of Jews.

In self-defence, of course.

I also disagree with Egypt and jordan. A government does simply not represent their people, in particular these days where most presidents of countries have very low rating after several years.
Also they do not deliberately target civilians, and this I have explained before, but yet I don't have time to quote myself. I have yet to do some researches of the roquets against nuclear, but some of my sources show that Israel uses bombs that do contain uranium and that are very radio active. One of my source mwntions some types of bombs Israel launched, but actually I don't have time to find an appropriate source for the radio active bombs. When Hamas calls for the destruction of jews, it is only by angriness to the bombs, it is very hard to support everydays bombings and seeing many members of familly beeing killed. Another source I have already posted shows the Hamas agreein on cease fires. But I myself do not see how we can agree on cease fires if blockades and other restriction and domination of Israel continues. My sources show all of this clearly. I won't respond until tomorrow, good night.

 

[Famine]

I also disagree with Egypt and jordan.

I thought you might.

Bear in mind that Egypt and Jordan were amongst the countries that immediately invaded Israel at the moment the Mandate of Palestine expired and were eventually defeated, with Jordanian Palestinians retaining territory in the West Bank and Egyptian Palestinians retaining territory in the Gaza Strip. Basically two countries who've had wars with Israel say that Hamas are terrorists - but you disagree...

Also they do not deliberately target civilians, and this I have explained before

Except they do, whether you've explained it or not. Their charter calls for the destruction of Israel and the killing of Jews.

I have yet to do some researches of the roquets against nuclear, but some of my sources show that Israel uses bombs that do contain uranium and that are very radio active. One of my source mwntions some types of bombs Israel launched, but actually I don't have time to find an appropriate source for the radio active bombs.

Yeah... depleted uranium shells that Israel don't use are in many ways the same thing as deliberately trying to blow up a nuclear reactor.

Depleted uranium is - as the word "depleted" suggests - not "very radio active". It's just dense to penetrate tanks and burns nicely once it's in there. "Safe" dense materials posited to replace it are actually more carcinogenic. It's also used in bullets (particularly in aircraft cannon) and tank armour.

When Hamas calls for the destruction of jews, it is only by angriness to the bombs, it is very hard to support everydays bombings and seeing many members of familly beeing killed.

You seem to misunderstand the word "charter". A "charter" is a document created at the foundation of an organisation that governs its conduct and states its goals (though it can be modified). Hamas's charter was created in 1988 and calls for the destruction of Israel and the death of Jews.

They're not saying it in reaction to Israel's missile strikes. It's the very goal they were founded upon 25 years ago. To exterminate Jews.

 

[VolkswagenX]

I love how you guys keep ignoring the occupation. The zionist occupier defending itself only makes sense when you ignore the occupation.

 

[Famine]

You mean the Israeli state's occupation of the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Sinai Peninsula that they took in the Six Day War in 1967 and then gave back? Or do you have some other occupation in mind?

 

[TenEightyOne]

You mean the Israeli state's occupation of the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Sinai Peninsula that they took in the Six Day War in 1967 and then gave back? Or do you have some other occupation in mind?

A very old joke:

A German arrives in Greece on holiday. As he goes the passport control the Greek official thumbs through the passport, looks up and asks "Occupation?".

"Oh no", says the German, "I'm just here on holiday".

 

[KSaiyu]

I love how you guys keep ignoring the occupation. The zionist occupier defending itself only makes sense when you ignore the occupation.

I see. So it's either stick up for a terrorist organisation or completely agree with the "zionist occupier". I guess we're incapable of condemning both

 

[VolkswagenX]

You mean the Israeli state's occupation of the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Sinai Peninsula that they took in the Six Day War in 1967 and then gave back? Or do you have some other occupation in mind?

Gave back? So it's not occupied? I guess they are not building Jewish only settlements in the west bank either? Anymore fantasy stories about the wonderfull not so racist state of israel?

 

[Famine]

Gave back? So it's not occupied?

Ah, that is the occupation you're talking about then.

Why did they give back the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Sinai Peninsula in 1967 if what they actually wanted was the West Bank & Gaza Strip (and Sinai Peninsula)? I mean... they kept the Golan Heights, having taken that - so why give the rest back?

Anymore fantasy stories about the wonderfull not so racist state of israel?

How about the fantasy story where you make claims about the subtext of other people's posts and present them as fact?

Got any condemnation for the 25 year old charter of Hamas calling for the extermination of Jews and the destruction of Israel and their attempts to kill civilians deliberately, their murder of Palestinians who do not support them (under suspicion of collaboration) and their strikes on a nuclear installation - or is it okay to hate Jews, attempt to murder them, murder Arabs and attempt to kill hundreds of thousands of people in 20 countries if you're Palestinian?

Hamas's "with us or against us" mentality that has seen them murder Palestinians (including children) who don't support having their rockets and mines in their neighbourhoods is one you seem to be expressing by painting anyone who doesn't agree with your rhetoric as supporting Israel.

 

[VolkswagenX]

Ah, that is the occupation you're talking about then.

Why did they give back the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Sinai Peninsula in 1967 if what they actually wanted was the West Bank & Gaza Strip (and Sinai Peninsula)? I mean... they kept the Golan Heights, having taken that - so why give the rest back?How about the fantasy story where you make claims about the subtext of other people's posts and present them as fact?

Got any condemnation for the 25 year old charter of Hamas calling for the extermination of Jews and the destruction of Israel and their attempts to kill civilians deliberately, their murder of Palestinians who do not support them (under suspicion of collaboration) and their strikes on a nuclear installation - or is it okay to hate Jews, attempt to murder them, murder Arabs and attempt to kill hundreds of thousands of people in 20 countries if you're Palestinian?

Hamas's "with us or against us" mentality that has seen them murder Palestinians (including children) who don't support having their rockets and mines in their neighbourhoods is one you seem to be expressing by painting anyone who doesn't agree with your rhetoric as supporting Israel.

Hamas Hamas Hamas. You sound like a broken record. Stick to the occupation. Only in a fantasy world can anybody claim that Israel is not occupying Palestinian land.

 

[Famine]

Hamas Hamas Hamas. You sound like a broken record.

So you're not going to condemn deliberate attacks against Jewish civilians, murder of Palestinian families and the attempt to blow up a nuclear facility, killing people in 20 or so countries, or a charter that calls for the extermination of Jews?

Roger.

Stick to the occupation. Only in a fantasy world can anybody claim that Israel is not occupying Palestinian land.

Explain why Israel took the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Sinai Peninsula by force in 1967 and ceded them back to Jordan and Egypt respectively if their goal was to keep them - when they took the Golan Heights from Syria in the very same offensive and never gave it back.

Explain why Israel allowed and supported the creation of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip in the early noughties, giving them representation at the United Nations as a member state and making it illegal to encroach on those territories, if they wanted to take those territories.

 

[VolkswagenX]

So you're not going to condemn deliberate attacks against Jewish civilians, murder of Palestinian families and the attempt to blow up a nuclear facility, killing people in 20 or so countries, or a charter that calls for the extermination of Jews?

Roger.Explain why Israel took the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Sinai Peninsula by force in 1967 and ceded them back to Jordan and Egypt respectively if their goal was to keep them - when they took the Golan Heights from Syria in the very same offensive and never gave it back.

Explain why Israel allowed and supported the creation of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip in the early noughties, giving them representation at the United Nations as a member state and making it illegal to encroach on those territories, if they wanted to take those territories.

I've already condemned Hamas is this very topic, I just don't get what it has to do with anything I've said?

You claim Israel is not occupying Palestinian land and the question you've asked has nothing to do with the Palestinian situation today ( occupation / blockade/ building of Jewish only settlements on the west bank etc.).
Palestinians have just as much ( even more according to international law) to defend themselves from their occupiers as some of you claim Israel has.

But I know what you wil say.. Hamas, Hamas, Hamas ..

 

[Famine]

You claim Israel is not occupying Palestinian land

Quote me or retract.

and the question you've asked has nothing to do with the Palestinian situation today ( occupation / blockade/ building of Jewish only settlements on the west bank etc.).
Palestinians have just as much ( even more according to international law) to defend themselves from their occupiers as some of you claim Israel has.

So why did Israel take the land by force in 1967, give it back (to Jordan and Egypt) and allow and support the creation of the Palestinian state on the land, making it a crime to encroach on it where it wasn't before, if they actually want that land?

 

[VolkswagenX]

Quote me or retract.So why did Israel take the land by force in 1967, give it back (to Jordan and Egypt) and allow and support the creation of the Palestinian state on the land, making it a crime to encroach on it where it wasn't before, if they actually want that land?

Lol, is Israel occupying Palestine or not?

 

[Famine]

Lol, is Israel occupying Palestine or not?

I've no idea - and that doesn't answer my question. It's intensely discourteous to demand answers when you are not providing any.

Now quote me claiming that Israel is not occupying Palestinian land or retract your statement that I claimed that. This is not a request.

 

[VolkswagenX]

I've no idea - and that doesn't answer my question. It's intensely discourteous to demand answers when you are not providing any.

Now quote me claiming that Israel is not occupying Palestinian land or retract your statement that I claimed that. This is not a request.

I Here by retract and will change it to you wil not deny nor confirm Israel is occupying Palestine. Smh..

 

[Famine]

Apology accepted.

Now, to the question of why Israel would take land by force, give it back, support the land's claim to sovereignty and self-determination and help make it illegal to occupy it if what it really wanted was the land.