Israel - Palestine discussion thread

International cricket council? I jest lol

There are seven crimes which constitute serious violations of article 3 common to the Geneva Conventions and which are applicable only to non-international armed conflicts:
  • Murder.
  • Mutilation.
  • Cruel treatment.
  • Torture.
  • Outrages upon personal dignity.
  • Taking hostages.
  • Sentencing or execution without due process.
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I don't think anyone here is disagreeing with this are we. One thing I can say is most of the international stuff fly's out the window pretty quick when things get serious, just how Israel is snubbing the UN at the moment.
 
xyloscissor
One thing I can say is most of the international stuff fly's out the window pretty quick when things get serious, just how Israel is snubbing the UN at the moment.
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The ICC is pretty serious business if you can get a case heard. The hard part is putting everything together and getting the accused to the Hague.
 
Officials from 72 countries to meet in Paris tomorrow to hash out a peace deal. US Secretary of State John Kerry is expected to join that number.

Times of Israel is reporting that the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has refused the invitation, citing the need for direct two-party talks. Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas is expected to arrive in France after the conference but hasn't stated that he will meet with French President Francois Hollande to be informed of the results of the conference.

According to the French government spokesperson Stephane Le Foll, neither Israel nor Palestine were not invited to the conference but instead were invited to meet with Hollande to be informed of the 72 nation talk results. "[France wants] to restart the (negotiation) process at a moment when it has been largely abandoned,” is what she said of the talks.

The talks sparked after the United Nations Security Council voted 14-0 to condemn Israel for their use of settlements in Jerusalem and in other areas, and is intended to spark a global support of a two-state solution. Washington abstained rather than casting its usual veto, and last month Kerry laid out the proposed parameters of a two-state solution.

Israel's ties with the outgoing US government fell to a new low after the UN vote but hopes to have an ear of the incoming Donald Trump administration when he formally takes office next Friday. That leaves Kerry with just one week if he wants to have an effect on the peace process, and Paris is one venue for that.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/72-countries-set-to-attend-paris-peace-confab/
 
Blitz24
To be honest, there isn't much of a "peace process" at the moment.
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Well, no, but the sticking point is that both Israel and Palestine claim Jerusalem as their capital city. If the Americans move their embassy to Jerusalem, they are tacitly recognising Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, and with no embassy to Palestine - or at least no embassy to Palestine in Jerusalem - it looks like they are taking Israel's side from the outset. The purpose of the peace process is to negotiate terms that are acceptable, if not favourable, to both sides, but by recognising Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, the deck is being stacked in Israel's favour, which goes against the purpose of the peace process.
 
Blitz24
To be honest, there isn't much of a "peace process" at the moment.

Has Fatah dropped the "Right to Return" demand or made any move to acknowledge the legitimate existence of Israel as a Jewish state? If the answer to those questions is no, then the peace process is DOA.
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Why does it have to be recognized as a Jewish state? Can it not just be recognized as a state? Does it have to be a Jewish state?
 
VolkswagenX
Why does it have to be recognized as a Jewish state? Can it not just be recognized as a state? Does it have to be a Jewish state?
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Yes it does have to be. Saying "two-state solution" does not imply that they recognize Israel as legitimately existing. It could mean Fatah and Hamas or the West Bank and what used to be Israel. If there is not an explicit recognition of Israel existing, then it shows that Fatah/Hamas look at the two state solution as potentially "Two Palestines". This is why the Right of Return demand is dangerous, because the rule is apparently passed down generations, meaning that millions of Palestinians will be moving into Israel and effectively forcing the state to collapse.
 
Blitz24
Yes it does have to be. Saying "two-state solution" does not imply that they recognize Israel as legitimately existing. It could mean Fatah and Hamas or the West Bank and what used to be Israel. If there is not an explicit recognition of Israel existing, then it shows that Fatah/Hamas look at the two state solution as potentially "Two Palestines". This is why the Right of Return demand is dangerous, because the rule is apparently passed down generations, meaning that millions of Palestinians will be moving into Israel and effectively forcing the state to collapse.
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They are already in Israel though, the entire area including their governments are under Israel, Do you think Israel consistently building settlements on their proposed land ever since 1967 is ever going to make a two state solution even possible.

Israel alone has taken the two state option out of existence once they started moving nearly a million of it's own people into the zones that are supposed to be the Palestinian state.


At this point it would be just easier and better for Israel and the Palestinians to completely cut off the Palestinian authority remove all existence of Hamas and Fatah and just let the Palestinians be citizens with any that don't want to be and or troublesome persons to be moved to Jordan who from my knowledge are open to it completely already(but they can't even do that as Israel has forced them into an apartheid state where they haven't got any rights, and ability to move as Israel has blocked all travel for them and then you wonder why they are soo hostile to Israel).

The area will never have 2 states, and it was in a significantly better state stability wise when it was one, over populating the ''Jewish state'' with European Jews because they had a rough time there isn't justification to then do the same thing they are running from back to the majority Arabic people that lived in that region before hand.
 
Two States solution? Bah. As time goes on, as Israel keeps acting like a schoolyard bully (stop hitting yourself, Palestine!) and as Hamas and Fatah fan the flames because they know they're doomed to irrelevance the moment Palestine becomes a recognized state, I become more and more favorable to a One Province (of Rome) kind of deal...

tunic_t.jpg


Enough peace talks, send in the Legionnaires!
 
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Blitz24
Yes it does have to be. Saying "two-state solution" does not imply that they recognize Israel as legitimately existing. It could mean Fatah and Hamas or the West Bank and what used to be Israel. If there is not an explicit recognition of Israel existing, then it shows that Fatah/Hamas look at the two state solution as potentially "Two Palestines". This is why the Right of Return demand is dangerous, because the rule is apparently passed down generations, meaning that millions of Palestinians will be moving into Israel and effectively forcing the state to collapse.
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Maybe I wasn't clear or maybe you dodged the question. Why does it have to be the Jewish state of Israel en not just the state of Israel?
 
VolkswagenX
Maybe I wasn't clear or maybe you dodged the question. Why does it have to be the Jewish state of Israel en not just the state of Israel?
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It doesn't have to be the "Jewish" state of Israel, but it's clear that it will be the Arab state of Palestine. Remember that when Israel declared independence, all of the Jewish people living in Algeria, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Egypt and Libya were tossed out, not allowed to live there. If Israel exists in any fashion for this peace deal to work, it will effectively have to be Jewish.
 
Blitz24
Has Fatah dropped the "Right to Return" demand or made any move to acknowledge the legitimate existence of Israel as a Jewish state? If the answer to those questions is no, then the peace process is DOA.
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It's Hamas, not Fatah.
 
Blitz24
It doesn't have to be the "Jewish" state of Israel, but it's clear that it will be the Arab state of Palestine. Remember that when Israel declared independence, all of the Jewish people living in Algeria, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Egypt and Libya were tossed out, not allowed to live there. If Israel exists in any fashion for this peace deal to work, it will effectively have to be Jewish.
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The thing your forgetting is that was a reaction to said Jewish state.

Lets not forget the regions that made up Mandatory Palestine where majority Arab Muslim at the time of creation.

Getting half the land when making up some 15% of the people in the area sounds pretty ridiculous.
 
I just finished watching this, well made and informative, all about those six days back in the 60's 👍



Seeing as there is no peace even to this day I have to question the idea that there should have been any ounce of withdrawal.
 
Dennisch
I wonder if she'll get that treatment now.
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Well, the terrorists (endorsed by the Palestinian government, a good thing to keep in mind) sure seem hellbent to ensure that no further treatment seekers (genuine ones, that is) are able to receive help, now that this nice little culture of distrust has been established.
 
Hamas will no longer call for the destruction of Israel, stop associating with Muslim Brotherhood.


The Palestinian Islamist group Hamas will remove a call for Israel's destruction and drop its association with the Muslim Brotherhood in a new policy document to be issued on Monday, Gulf Arab sources said.

Hamas's move appears aimed at improving relations with Gulf Arab states and Egypt, which label the Brotherhood as a terrorist organization, as well as with Western countries, many of which classify Hamas as a terrorist group over its hostility to Israel.

The sources said Hamas, which has controlled the Gaza Strip since 2007, will say in the document that it agrees to a transitional Palestinian state along the borders from 1967, when Israel captured Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem in a war with Arab states. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005.

A future state encompassing Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem along 1967 borders is the goal of Hamas' main political rival, the Fatah movement led by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. His Palestinian Authority has engaged in peace talks with Israel on that basis, although the last, U.S.-mediated round collapsed three years ago.

The revised Hamas political document, to be announced later on Monday, will still reject Israel's right to exist and back "armed struggle" against it, the Gulf Arab sources told Reuters.

Hamas has fought three wars with Israel since 2007 and has carried out hundreds of armed attacks in Israel and in Israeli-occupied territories since it was founded three decades ago.


Now, this is something surprising.
 
Johnnypenso
Yeah, they had me up until that point. Playing to their base I suppose.
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As I said to @Dennisch, it looks like they were hoping that nobody read the fine print. It also proves that the current strategy against them is working. It also proves that you should not hire their PR client to make announcements.
 
Blitz24
So we don't call for your destruction but you still have no right to exist. Doesn't go far enough.
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Why not? China is an accepted part of the world stage, so is Russia, the US, the UK... you could go on and on listing countries that refuse to recognise or retrospectively acknowledge foreign ownership of "their" land. This stance would bring Palestine into good company - the conflict is only bloody because the "occupation" is in very very recent memory compared to others.
 
TenEightyOne
Why not? China is an accepted part of the world stage, so is Russia, the US, the UK... you could go on and on listing countries that refuse to recognise or retrospectively acknowledge foreign ownership of "their" land. This stance would bring Palestine into good company - the conflict is only bloody because the "occupation" is in very very recent memory compared to others.
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Hamas isn't a very trustworthy organisation. They'll need to come up with a lot more positive behaviour before they can be taken seriously on a peace talk worthy scale.
 
Dennisch
Baby steps.

Can't go all friendly towards your arch-enemy in one step.
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The Israelis aren't helping things by calling it a sham. The IRA disarmed, as did the ETA in northern Spain. There's no reason why Hamas cannot adopt a more moderate stance over time and gradually work towards a peace deal, especially if they get on the same page as Fatah. But being told that you're just postulating and aren't genuine at every step does far more to undermine the process.
 

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