Just Raced Under The New Algorithms and Rules

  • Thread starter GTFraker
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Lion-Face
I like stricter penalties, but i think it may be too strict in its current form

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I can see a big fall in players in the Daily Races with penalties as harsh as that, thus making the matchmaking even more likely to put you in races with players with lower SR.

No race series in the world hands out a 2 second penalty for the tiniest of contact.
 
JulesDennis
I've been critical to the rating system from the closed beta till now.Many times people would call out my opinions to this matter.
With that said from my point of view this kind of system should have been from day one and improve the way time penalties were/are working.
Now it will make people more fustrated because of the way they are used to "race".Personally I have zero problems but my fear is that maybe its too late?
BTW I also have zero problems with the new DR system.After all,if you copy another system -that is the best around- do it right.
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The closed beta didn't really have a DR system at all - certainly nothing Elo-based, basically just points awarded by position regardless of opponents. And the SR was extremely basic until the very last moment, when there was no time left to refine it. It was an opportunity missed on both counts.

So yes, something more evolved should've been present from day one. But no, the way it's evolving in response to user demands isn't producing a good - well-designed and balanced - system.

The issue of apportioning blame for incidents is something that sounds simple, but is extremely hard to actually implement. So hard that I doubt they will get it sufficiently accurate within GTS's lifetime. So when they say they've 'improved' these things... we'll see.

I don't think you understand my point about DR penalties... and I don't think iRacing has them on its iRating. Doing it right would be not having penalties on it! (Also, iRacing uses size of field to scale changes in iRating, which GTS doesn't do for DR, sadly).

These other changes are good though, I think:
Crazybutt198
If a driver continues to drive without complying with a certain amount of Time Penalty, additional time penalties will be added. (The additional penalty depends on the DR);
A driver may now be disqualified from a race if the number of collisions and shortcuts they accumulate becomes too great;
Cars over a lap behind will now be ghosted and will not be subject to collisions. (Only enabled in Sport mode);
It is now possible to submit grief reports for misconduct of other users.
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I have no problem with it scaling SR and time penalties based on DR, so if you've got a high DR, then SR changes more with each incident. SR isn't an Elo-based system, so it can't be broken in the same way as DR.
 
Alfabob46
I'm worried about people lifting off the gas as they are exiting a corner when you are really close behind resulting in giving them an unexpected hit.
Will you now get a penalty for rear ending them?
Or will they get a penalty for lifting off?.
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Apparently both will.
 
Outspacer
The closed beta didn't really have a DR system at all - certainly nothing Elo-based, basically just points awarded by position regardless of opponents. And the SR was extremely basic until the very last moment, when there was no time left to refine it. It was an opportunity missed on both counts.

So yes, something more evolved should've been present from day one. But no, the way it's evolving in response to user demands isn't producing a good - well-designed and balanced - system.

The issue of apportioning blame for incidents is something that sounds simple, but is extremely hard to actually implement. So hard that I doubt they will get it sufficiently accurate within GTS's lifetime. So when they say they've 'improved' these things... we'll see.

I don't think you understand my point about DR penalties... and I don't think iRacing has them on its iRating. Doing it right would be not having penalties on it! (Also, iRacing uses size of field to scale changes in iRating, which GTS doesn't do for DR, sadly).

These other changes are good though, I think:

I have no problem with it scaling SR and time penalties based on DR, so if you've got a high DR, then SR changes more with each incident. SR isn't an Elo-based system, so it can't be broken in the same way as DR.
Click to expand...

I agree with most of your points.They thing is that PD was trying to copy paste iRacing system.In iRacing the most important rating is the safety rating.The iRating system depends on it..People first look to get a good (as high as possible) safety rating and by doing that gain-at the same time- more "skill" points (aka iRating).
If your goal is to go "PRO" (a top tier sim racer) then both ratings are important.But if you want to sim race and enjoy yourself then the iRacing propably means nothing.I mean even real life pro drivers do not care if they have an B or A or WR licence but they do care more about their safety rating.
In GTS the system did not have SR connected to DR the same way iRacing does it.
The "copy" PD did in that system was poor -from my point of view- and adding the "problematic" way of penalties working in the game created a lot of mess.Now they try to fix that mess by forcing too strict rules.Fine by me but it should have happend from day one and improve from there.
It seems that "Sport mode" is still a "beta mode" after all this time -in my eyes-.
 
danh25
I would not complain too much about the balance they are doing at sport mode.
In the end it is a new system for GT and is physiological that is still under development and optimization.
These sitemi will be optimal in the long term.
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Let´s hope so!! (Strongly!! :) )
 
JulesDennis
I agree with most of your points.They thing is that PD was trying to copy paste iRacing system.In iRacing the most important rating is the safety rating.The iRating system depends on it..People first look to get a good (as high as possible) safety rating and by doing that gain-at the same time- more "skill" points (aka iRating).
If your goal is to go "PRO" (a top tier sim racer) then both ratings are important.But if you want to sim race and enjoy yourself then the iRacing propably means nothing.I mean even real life pro drivers do not care if they have an B or A or WR licence but they do care more about their safety rating.
In GTS the system did not have SR connected to DR the same way iRacing does it.
The "copy" PD did in that system was poor -from my point of view- and adding the "problematic" way of penalties working in the game created a lot of mess.Now they try to fix that mess by forcing too strict rules.Fine by me but it should have happend from day one and improve from there.
It seems that "Sport mode" is still a "beta mode" after all this time -in my eyes-.
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What do you mean by "In GTS the system did not have SR connected to DR the same way iRacing does it." ? iRacing doesn't connect the two, AFAIK. It does use SR as a limit on what licence level you can have, but that isn't the same thing. I thought iRating was a purely Elo-based system, with no penalties applied to it. Have I got that right?

Just to be clear, I'm fine with DR having an effect on SR. And I'm fine with multiple penalties disqualifying someone, because although that results in them losing DR, in that case it is to other players (so the system retains the same number of points overall).
 
Mirror_man
It will take some time.. believe me... racers are to much into running using the imperfections from previous penalization system.. and they will take some time before changing their attitude... and I don´t think that a week will be enough time. for it to happen!
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Lord Protector
Apparently both will.
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Oh My Lord!!! I´m thinking that you are not truly protecting me, nor anybody else... to be honest... :P
 
Sofia Speed
Just did a Tokyo Race.
Got pole, came out in first to T1, as usual was rammed against the wall by others...
I didn’t got any penalty neither red or orange Sr sign....
that turn was a mess and everybody ghosted after the hit...
As usual that race is carnage!!!
I was the only A/S and was matched with B/S, B/A, C and Ds

End up with red S :(
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I think I ended up winning that one, Sofia. :)

Sark
 
Outspacer
What do you mean by "In GTS the system did not have SR connected to DR the same way iRacing does it." ? iRacing doesn't connect the two, AFAIK. It does use SR as a limit on what licence level you can have, but that isn't the same thing. I thought iRating was a purely Elo-based system, with no penalties applied to it. Have I got that right?

Just to be clear, I'm fine with DR having an effect on SR. And I'm fine with multiple penalties disqualifying someone, because although that results in them losing DR, in that case it is to other players (so the system retains the same number of points overall).
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Like you said you need a min safety rating in order to move up to higher licenses.It actually make more sense in iRacing.You'll get promotions every new "season" (12 weeks).So you need to keep getting + safety before you get a better license.
To make it more clean:If I am a B rating driver I need to make a 4.00 safety rating and maintain it in order to fast jump to A (during season) or maintain a 3.00 in order to advance in A after the end of the season. If I drop under 1.00 I'll lose my license at that point (going into C).If I have anything between 2.00-2.99 I'll keep the same license class.If I am 1.00-1.99 I'll lose the license in the end of the season.
So iRating and safety rating are very much connected to each other in iRacing.So with super "clean" safety you'll get fast promotions or you'll have to wait 12 weeks and a min of 3.00 go advance on the license.
 
Loosing Dr. for contact... and incurring a time penalty... double whammy... and, I don't understand it.
Incurring a time penalty is already going to effect your Dr... you slow down, and loose spots... done, yet, now there is a Dr. penalty on top of the time penalty...
So, what is the point of Sr. now?
Dr. seems to be trying to be both "pace" and "safety"... and, if so, what is the point of Sr.?

Think about it... it's absurd.

And why knock a Dr.S driver back to Dr.A or Dr.B... he/she still has Dr.S pace... Now they go back and get a couple wins against A/B drivers...
They have implemented the Dr. tanking system that many were already "gaming"...

What's next, loose Sr. if I fail to finish in the top 10?

Pace should be about pace...
Safety should be about safety...
 
JulesDennis
Like you said you need a min safety rating in order to move up to higher licenses.It actually make more sense in iRacing.You'll get promotions every new "season" (12 weeks).So you need to keep getting + safety before you get a better license.
To make it more clean:If I am a B rating driver I need to make a 4.00 safety rating and maintain it in order to fast jump to A (during season) or maintain a 3.00 in order to advance in A after the end of the season. If I drop under 1.00 I'll lose my license at that point (going into C).If I have anything between 2.00-2.99 I'll keep the same license class.If I am 1.00-1.99 I'll lose the license in the end of the season.
So iRating and safety rating are very much connected to each other in iRacing.So with super "clean" safety you'll get fast promotions or you'll have to wait 12 weeks and a min of 3.00 go advance on the license.
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But iRating and license are two different things, no?
As I read it, license is based on SR only, and actually has a two-way effect - moving up a licence level takes 1 pt from your SR, whereas iRating is unaffected by either license level or SR.
 
cleanLX
Loosing Dr. for contact... and incurring a time penalty... double whammy... and, I don't understand it.
Incurring a time penalty is already going to effect your Dr... you slow down, and loose spots... done, yet, now there is a Dr. penalty on top of the time penalty...
So, what is the point of Sr. now?
Dr. seems to be trying to be both "pace" and "safety"... and, if so, what is the point of Sr.?

Think about it... it's absurd.

And why knock a Dr.S driver back to Dr.A or Dr.B... he/she still has Dr.S pace... Now they go back and get a couple wins against A/B drivers...
They have implemented the Dr. tanking system that many were already "gaming"...

What's next, loose Sr. if I fail to finish in the top 10?

Pace should be about pace...
Safety should be about safety...
Click to expand...

All these are because PD tried to copy-paste iRacing rating system but in a wrong way.

@Outspacer

Yes you are correct.
"There are two ways to move forward in your iRacing career. ‘Vertically’, so to say, you can move to a new series, which is enabled by a promotion to the next license class (there’s Rookie, D, C, B, and A). You can also stay within a series and progress ‘horizontally’, based on iRating".
All ratings are working within this logic:in order to give people fun/competitive and clean races.
So they use licenses,iRating and safety rating -plus divisions- (in official races).All are connected to each other.Its complicated compared to the GTS system but it make sense.PD tried a more "simple" version by just creating DR and SR ratings.DR for "pace" and SR for "safety".
 
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Lion-Face
I like stricter penalties, but i think it may be too strict in its current form

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:lol: That's amazing, I've only experienced the new system as being very lenient. I've accidentally rear-ended people much harder than that and been rear-ended, side-wipe, your everyday rubbing that goes on and have yet to been hit with a contact penalty in the 4 or 5 races I've done. Only got 2 penalties so far and they were from cutting T2 on Blue Moon a bit too much and sliding into the barriers.
 
Lion-Face
I posted this in the other thread, but is appropriate here also.

I think the new system may be too sensitive. I do like the idea behind it though.

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I'm glad it looks this strong. Just drive with a fear of not touching other cars. Leave room, and drive respectfully.

The only issue I can see is with brake checking, but that is more to do with user behaviour than the system.
If people spin or crash in front of you, slow down and avoid them. Bare in mind, penalties still may be incurred without fault but this is racing. Not everything is within your control.

I can't wait to try it later tonight!
 
Lord Protector
Looks like I am not racing sport mode for at least a week, until every single dirty driver is not in S SR rank.
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That's a good idea, if it's as harsh as the videos make it seem, it may only take a day or two though. :lol:

I worry all the slowing down to serve the penalties will do more harm than good though, would have been better to just apply them after the race if they couldn't implement a system to make you give back places when you hit another car off track or hit to pass.

Still at least they are trying to improve things. 👍
 
ASH32
That's a good idea, if it's as harsh as the videos make it seem, it may only take a day or two though. :lol:

I worry all the slowing down to serve the penalties will do more harm than good though, would have been better to just apply them after the race if they couldn't implement a system to make you give back places when you hit another car off track or hit to pass.

Still at least they are trying to improve things. 👍
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Yes that's what I am afraid as well. I can clearly see people slowing down in front of me right in the racing line...
 
Lion-Face
I posted this in the other thread, but is appropriate here also.

I think the new system may be too sensitive. I do like the idea behind it though.

Click to expand...


The only penalty I saw was on the first one, where you didn't leave enough room on the exit for the other player to go double wide on the turn. It would be interesting to see if cutting off lines is now going to be penalized as that was my biggest gripe with the game. Most drivers didn't know that when passing, that you must leave space (2/3rd car width, 1 full car width if there's a wall) when overlapped with a car on a turn.

The second penalty was definitely bizarre. The other driver's car did a weird lateral shimmy but it's hard to tell if that was him taking a hit during his instance of the race or if he was just slipping on the kerb.

It'll be interesting to see how this all fleshes out.
 
Lion-Face
I posted this in the other thread, but is appropriate here also.

I think the new system may be too sensitive. I do like the idea behind it though.

Click to expand...


I noticed with the first contact a red circle showed up on the left side in the hud next to you're gear number.
Is that new or didn't I see it earlier?
 
JulesDennis
All these are because PD tried to copy-paste iRacing rating system but in a wrong way.

@Outspacer

Yes you are correct.
"There are two ways to move forward in your iRacing career. ‘Vertically’, so to say, you can move to a new series, which is enabled by a promotion to the next license class (there’s Rookie, D, C, B, and A). You can also stay within a series and progress ‘horizontally’, based on iRating".
All ratings are working within this logic:in order to give people fun/competitive and clean races.
So they use licenses,iRating and safety rating -plus divisions- (in official races).All are connected to each other.Its complicated compared to the GTS system but it make sense.PD tried a more "simple" version by just creating DR and SR ratings.DR for "pace" and SR for "safety".
Click to expand...

Well I think PD got the basics right, but with some flaws.

The SR system (when it was no-fault) was simply too generous, giving +SR for driving round empty track, and we never got to see what a refined, more balanced, version of that no-fault system might have ended up like. Even with the very dodgy fault determination, I think it does serve to separate clean from dirty drivers to some extent (although the problem remains that perhaps too many manage to be S rated).

The DR points scoring is/was OK, without point penalties applied. The limits placed on DR letter based on SR work pretty well as an analog to iRacing's licenses, without using yet another rating scale. It's a penalty... without being a penalty in points. If matchmaking is based on SR and DR letter, someone with high DR points but low SR points (and therefore low DR letter) gets put in scrappy races where they are more likely to lose DR points, and justice is served that way. I think those DR letter limits are a good way to do it, but it depends on properly working SR.

Instead of refining what they had we're getting hastily tacked on kludges based on suggestions from users, who generally aren't considering the balance of the whole system, just individual aspects of it.

Matchmaking is key to getting these ratings to work correctly, especially DR. My suspicion is that PD expected a lot more players, and that would give the matchmaking more flexibility. With low numbers it fails to match similar DR letters together, and just has to match based on SR, which doesn't let each player's DR evolve as perhaps it should.
 

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