Kazunori Yamauchi: Driving Simulators Shouldn't be Difficult

[Dhalism]

So what's wrong with that? He's making the game more open to casual players, thus making it more appealing to the masses, thus generatinga lager amount of income. Isn't that what GTS is suppose to be? An easy going sim-type game that easy for anyone to pick up and play but still retains some realism? I really don't see what's wrong with this.

i think the negativity comes from the fact that GT simply never kept up with technology. It started out as a sim, all thing considered, but didnt improve on that and slowly slid back into arcade territory. While it's still a good game, for someone, it has alienated a lot of old school fans who expect more.

 

[ghostrider135]

Kaz has officially lost the plot, No small wonder the GT franchise has been on such a downward spiral for so long now.

Of course a simulator should be difficult yes driving normal everyday cars isn't exactly difficult well for most folks anyways.

But look how many expensive/exotic cars have been crashed by people with more money than driving skill to see that driving anything more powerful than mundane is actually alot more difficult, Maybe this is just his excuse for having pants physics and lacking content over the competition 👍

 

[kolio]

But look how many expensive/exotic cars have been crashed by people with more money than driving skill

That is because they are driving it past their driving skill. They should not have a license if they cannot drive a car at the limits of public roadway. Which they are not driving them at the limits of the public roadway, they are going over it...

 

[ghostrider135]

That is because they are driving it past their driving skill. They should not have a license if they cannot drive a car at the limits of public roadway. Which they are not driving them at the limits of the public roadway, they are going over it...

So what about pay drivers/gentleman racers, If skill is involved then by pure logic difficulty factors into things, If driving an actual racing car was easy there would be zero need for things like super licences etc all Kaz is doing by dumbing things down and making it more accessible is enticing more morons and crash kids to play the game and ruin the experience for everybody else.

 

[HuskyGT]

I have to agree with Yamauchi here. I remember when I first tried Assetto Corsa and PCars. I thought it would take me months to get used to playing them with a wheel. Although I was definitely not putting amazing laps, within just a few minutes of playing them, I felt in absolute control of the car. Whereas playing GT (GT6) or Forza (Horizon 3) with a wheel proved to be a nightmare.

 

[adstomko]

I disagree completely and I think he's just repeating this as an excuse for not having a simulation engine that's on par with the competition.

I fear this is true.
If you are labelling and advertising GT Sport with an FIA licence, you should try to replicate motorsport through pure simulation. In fact, in this instance, simulation should be a priority over enjoyment. The physics are much more important than photo mode etc on this GT than any other. And if one has to spend around €800 on a steering wheel to compete with the best, one expects to be driving one of the (if not the) best simulator on the market. How many people would buy an €800 wheel for an arcade/simcade? I'm guessing not many.
I don't want GT Sport to be torn between arcade, collections, photos vs simulation, online competitive racing, serious tournaments. This GT is different to the norm and comes with an FIA package, and therefore PD should be prioritising simulation.

 

[MisterOne77]

I personally never had a problem with GT physics. It allowed for a relatively fun but realistic experience for me. If they do have such complex physics as seen in AC, I don't think I would enjoy the game as much as I used to, seeing as I've more often then not seen people saying how bad their experience with a controller was on AC or PC. The game doesn't need to have physics on the level as AC or PC for me to truly enjoy the game.

 

[Dhalism]

I have to agree with Yamauchi here. I remember when I first tried Assetto Corsa and PCars. I thought it would take me months to get used to playing them with a wheel. Although I was definitely not putting amazing laps, within just a few minutes of playing them, I felt in absolute control of the car. Whereas playing GT (GT6) or Forza (Horizon 3) with a wheel proved to be a nightmare.

i doubt thats what he meant but that's an interesting approach to what difficult/easy means. AC definitely has a fantastic FFB system.

 

[Corsa]

I don't agree with his statement, it's too broad and overreaching.

There's thousands of factors that make a car easy or difficult to drive/race.
Speed, downforce, tires, track surface, weather on and on...

I'm going to reserve my opinion until I can actually take GT Sport for a drive and push the limit.

 

[Schmiggz]

Driving simulators isn't difficult at all, Mr.Yamaushi. What is difficult is driving VERY fast and be competitive.

 

[kolio]

So what about pay drivers/gentleman racers, If skill is involved then by pure logic difficulty factors into things, If driving an actual racing car was easy there would be zero need for things like super licences etc all Kaz is doing by dumbing things down and making it more accessible is enticing more morons and crash kids to play the game and ruin the experience for everybody else.

We are talking about people with a lot of money buying cars that have more power than they know what to do with. Therefore, causing them to do something that they shouldn't be doing because they do not have the skill. From the first post I quoted, I assume what you are saying is that driving a Ferrari 458 on public roadway is difficult. Am I wrong? Please explain what it really means if I interpreted it wrong.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I think the statement conflates the issue. While I agree with the basic sentiment — difficulty doesn't inherently imply realism — that doesn't mean simplicity is any more or less realistic. Driving certain cars is going to be easier than others. Driving at 5/10 is going to be easier than trying to shave a single second off your best 'Ring lap.

The first time I tried Assetto Corsa on a pad, it was a nightmare. However, getting the wheel involved, it was almost immediately familiar. It felt natural. A few months later, I tried PCARS with a wheel and VR, and that was a revelation. Admittedly, it's hard to truly evaluate the easiness of GT: over two decades I've spent untold hours on the franchise, so it comes fairly naturally. To a slightly lesser extent, same with Forza.

That all said, it's perhaps telling that this is the approach PD is making with GT Sport's pre-release hype. Look at GT5 and GT6 (both released in a pre-AC/PCARS world): the physics were always the focus, not whether it was easier or harder. Simulating more of reality was the goal. Now, maybe that's still the goal, but it isn't being focused on in the PR material, at least not in the way those other games do it.

 

[ghostrider135]

We are talking about people with a lot of money buying cars that have more power than they know what to do with. Therefore, causing them to do something that they shouldn't be doing because they do not have the skill. From the first post I quoted, I assume what you are saying is that driving a Ferrari 458 on public roadway is difficult. Am I wrong? Please explain what it really means if I interpreted it wrong.

For people who are not used to driving more powerful/different layout cars than the norm then yes its more difficult, Difficulty is a major factor, Skill and difficulty go hand in hand weather it be on the road or on a track, One only needs to watch Topgear to see that even people who drive cars for a living have difficulty controlling cars sometimes because it is not easy to drive quickly even when its possible and safe to do so.

Example, I have driven a normal run of the mill car quite quickly on the road and not crashed, I have also driven a kart on a track and I stuffed it but hey nobodys perfect even the pro's do those kind of things therefore it has elements of difficulty.

 

[Schmiggz]

You know that pizza is not to be eaten with a fork and a knife, right? Because is basically a slice of bread with whatever on top so, yeah. Just pick it up and eat it with your bare hands.
Simulators are not to be played with a controller. Most of you know why already, right?

 

[SlipZtrEm]

You know that pizza is not to be eaten with a fork and a knife, right? Because is basically a slice of bread with whatever on top so, yeah. Just pick it up and eat it with your bare hands.
Simulators are not to be played with a controller. Most of you know why already, right?

That's a pretty poor analogy, since there are certainly parts of the world (and types of pizza) where fork and knife are customary.

Although there are almost certainly pizza elitists who dismiss others' ways of enjoying things simply because they're different.

 

[Brend]

You know that pizza is not to be eaten with a fork and a knife, right? Because is basically a slice of bread with whatever on top so, yeah. Just pick it up and eat it with your bare hands.
Simulators are not to be played with a controller. Most of you know why already, right?

I don't think a commodity (barring those with a disability) such as hands can be compared to an expensive peripheral like a steering wheel.

Our hands are quite literally at hand in that scenario, a £150+ entry level device that requires space and a sound set up? Not so much.

 

[TS050]

Of course a simulator should be difficult

so you're saying that if a game simulates a 1.4 Golf it should be hard to drive?

 

[Joey D]

At the end of the day, Gran Turismo is still a video game and still needs to sell in large numbers for Sony to turn a profit and to sell systems. This means games need to accessible to the broadest audience possible in order for people to continue buying them. This is also why these games must first be playable with the stock controller that comes with the system, especially when you see the prices of some of the wheels that are out there and how from generation to generation they may or may not work.

I think this is also why driving aids are so important to racing video games, it allows more player to enjoy the game and isn't from such a niche genre that games are hard to sell outside the hardcore community. I also think this is why things like rewind, the ability to turn damage on/off, and adjustable AI difficulty are also very important to the racing game genre. I think most players when it comes to GT, Forza, AC, PC, and the like just want to experience cars they'll never get to in real life and be able to do stupid things without any consequences (high speeds, drifting, etc.). The more customization you can provide with the settings in a game the larger the audience you'll reach and the more they'll enjoy it because those who have limited skills (or time) will be happy that they can make the game easier while still fun and those who have the time to dedicate to getting really good at the game have the ability to make it as realistic as possible.

I find elitist attitudes towards games to be kind of silly and I feel like they miss the concept that video games are supposed to be entertaining.

 

[XxHighWayStarXx]

Raise your hand if you've driven a real car with a game controller!.....

If the engine supports that form of input first, and the 'minority' of wheel peripheral second, then they are making an easy-to-drive car game for thumbs. Which does not exist in real life.

Therefore, it is The Real Fiction Driving Simulator.

First and foremost it's a game. Not a simulator. A Game.
G.A.M.E. i.e. it IS fiction.
Regardless of how often they use the word SIMULATOR you do not need a wheel to play these games and nor should they be primarily aimed at wheel users.
Their target customers are casual game players, who just so happen to prefer to use the game controller.
And they are the majority.
You asked who drives a car in real life with a controller, well by the same token who climbs a mountain in real life using a controller? Who walks and runs in real life using a controller? Who swings a punch or kicks an opponent in real life using a controller? Who does ANYTHING in real life using a controller?
No one, that's who because we are talking about games folks, not real life.
You certainly don't need a real life mountaineer's rig just to play Tomb Raider. That would be ridiculous. And you certainly don't need to wield a real weapon and wear a backpack to play 99% of the shooting games out there.
This silly insistence that car games must only be played using a real life wheel in order to be taken seriously is just nonsense.
The controller is perfectly valid to use for any game & should be the primary focus for developers.
Games should be convenient to pick up and play. And the majority prefer to play that way.
Any business that wants to make a profit would be seriously foolish to ignore their majority customers.
Games are supposed to be fiction where the user pretends to do things using a controller.
And that's the real life reality.

 

[PzR Slim]

so you're saying that if a game simulates a 1.4 Golf it should be hard to drive?

It should be hard to drive when when carrying out manoeuvres that would be difficult in the real world.

You see that's where his statement falls down. It doesn't actually mean anything. What a simulator should be is a simulation of the real world. Sometimes driving in the real world is very easy and sometimes it's very hard. Any game's physics model needs to be able to portray those two extremes and everything in between.

 

[Donnced]

Well Kazonuri yamhuchi... More "comercial" talk???

For sure that a real car isn't difficult to drive...
But my seat ibiza is more less easy to drive than your Gr.3 cars of GT Sport.

It's not the same to drive a ibiza or a BMW in real life than a hyper car that you need some advice from the constructor and special driving lesson like in the case of my boss ho buyed an Porsche carrera GT.

Driving some cars on a track at high speed isn't so easy Kazonuri... And you should now it,because you crashed your Nissan GTR GT3 in nurburgring nordschleife 24H remember?

Assetto corsa for example, driving normal cars is easy, a BMW M4 is easy..
A Mazda 787B... Well, isn't so easy any more.

Your game has a good controler implantation because you're aiming for a maximum variety of people to play an enjoy your game? Great.

Like i said, assetto corsa for example, or Rfactor 2,or iracing are also "easy" to drive a car in the game with a wheel.
They are driving simulators...if you want to simulate driving, it's logical that some development teams focus on a great wheel implementation and focus to real petrol heads fans users.

Your physics are really simple! You can't even play with tyre pressure that in a real car and quite some simulators affect the car handling, tyre temperature and degradation...

In GTS you are still using a single center pointed rotation of the car.
So You can't even simulate correct the rotation of a front or rear engined car.

Camber didn't even work in GT6...

And Don't forget that magic silent driving aid called "hand of God" that helps to recover a car very easy and unreal in GT Sport....

None game / simulator is perfect, but yours is really basic and behind a lot of other games / simulator nowadays.

I really can understand that you want to sell the game... Just say that you are aiming a more simplistic physics engine so that the majority of potential users can enjoy your game...


And Don't copy what Stefano casillo from kunos simulazioni started to say back in 2013

 

[jm79]

Well Kazonuri yamhuchi... More "comercial" talk???

For sure that a real car isn't difficult to drive...
But my seat ibiza is more less easy to drive than your Gr.3 cars of GT Sport.

It's not the same to drive a ibiza or a BMW in real life than a hyper car that you need some advice from the constructor and special driving lesson like in the case of my boss ho buyed an Porsche carrera GT.

Driving some cars on a track at high speed isn't so easy Kazonuri... And you should now it,because you crashed your Nissan GTR GT3 in nurburgring nordschleife 24H remember?

Assetto corsa for example, driving normal cars is easy, a BMW M4 is easy..
A Mazda 787B... Well, isn't so easy any more.

Your game has a good controler implantation because you're aiming for a maximum variety of people to play an enjoy your game? Great.

Like i said, assetto corsa for example, or Rfactor 2,or iracing are also "easy" to drive a car in the game with a wheel.
They are driving simulators...if you want to simulate driving, it's logical that some development teams focus on a great wheel implementation and focus to real petrol heads fans users.

Your physics are really simple! You can't even play with tyre pressure that in a real car and quite some simulators affect the car handling, tyre temperature and degradation...

In GTS you are still using a single center pointed rotation of the car.
So You can't even simulate correct the rotation of a front or rear engined car.

Camber didn't even work in GT6...

And Don't forget that magic silent driving aid called "hand of God" that helps to recover a car very easy and unreal in GT Sport....

None game / simulator is perfect, but yours is really basic and behind a lot of other games / simulator nowadays.

I really can understand that you want to sell the game... Just say that you are aiming a more simplistic physics engine so that the majority of potential users can enjoy your game...


And Don't copy what Stefano casillo from kunos simulazioni started to say back in 2013

Wow, that was long and heartfelt. Congrats Spanish brother!

Personally, I'm just hoping this upcoming videogame will be fun to play

 

[Corsa]

I find elitist attitudes towards games to be kind of silly and I feel like they miss the concept that video games are supposed to be entertaining.

Do you find Barbie dolls entertaining?
I don't either, but my daughter loves them.

I'm not saying that to be demeaning, people find entertainment in different venues.

I can't stand sports, but put the word motor in front of it and everything changes.

Alot of us here have a decent amount of money and time invested into our sim equipment.

I can't speak for anyone else, but sim racing is my hobby, it's what I do to chase that realism as I can't afford a supercar.

I'm not an elitist, but I do expect to be challenged with modern sim titles.

It stopped being a game to me years ago when I bought my first proper wheel, and had an online race that left my hands sweating.

If I want to play a game, I'll ring the boys for some Texas hold 'em.

 

[Joey D]

Do you find Barbie dolls entertaining?
I don't either, but my daughter loves them.

I'm not saying that to be demeaning, people find entertainment in different venues.

I can't stand sports, but put the word motor in front of it and everything changes.

Alot of us here have a decent amount of money and time invested into our sim equipment.

I can't speak for anyone else, but sim racing is my hobby, it's what I do to chase that realism as I can't afford a supercar.

I'm not an elitist, but I do expect to be challenged with modern sim titles.

It stopped being a game to me years ago when I bought my first proper wheel, and had an online race that left my hands sweating.

If I want to play a game, I ring the boys for some Texas hold 'em.

It's still a game for a vast majority of people though, Sony wouldn't turn a profit or sell as many systems if they solely focused on it being a hardcore simulator. They also can't assume most players will want to shell out the money for a wheel after shelling out $60 for a game, $30 for a season pass, and $300+ for a console, especially when a perfectly capable controller comes with the system right out of the box. Every console game should be able to be played with the device the console is sold with, however, I do agree there should be different settings in the game if their is a large part of the gaming population that wishes to play with an add-on. Just like if a flight sim was released for the console, I'd fully expect it to be playable with a controller, but having the ability to adjust settings to make a joystick or yolk work better is something they should probably include too.

I get that to many sim racing is a hobby, but that doesn't mean that it's not an entertainment product first and foremost in the eyes of Sony, that's why I think having many customization options within a game benefits it greatly. I think Forza has done a good job with this and even offers players who use less of the aids more in game credits as a reward for playing at a higher difficulty.

Look at it this way, there are tons of people who use Lego sets as a hobby and build some amazing things with them, up to and including life sized replicas, but it doesn't mean that Lego sets and blocks aren't a toy first and foremost.

Smaller studios can get away with building more hardcore games for niche audiences because they don't have the overhead or investors to worry about as much. Also these smaller games are often launched on the PC, which doesn't come with a controller and they have the ability to dedicate their design to one specific input device like a wheel.

 

[Donnced]

Wow, that was long and heartfelt. Congrats Spanish brother!

Personally, I'm just hoping this upcoming videogame will be fun to play

That is just the most important thing in a videogame...be fun for the user that is playing it.

If it's filled with the content and features you or someone is looking for, sure ir will be fun for you or towards the other user.

Personally i liked more the older games of the saga.
And GTS doesn't even features content and features enough to my personal taste that will me make spend my money on it.

About "simulation" ... Líke i said,they are finally all games, one with a more basic physics engine than other and each one with a little personal touch from their development team.

 

[Corsa]

Very well said Joey.

 

[Schmiggz]

That's a pretty poor analogy, since there are certainly parts of the world (and types of pizza) where fork and knife are customary.

Although there are almost certainly pizza elitists who dismiss others' ways of enjoying things simply because they're different.

I wouldn't expect anything else from you but just the usual bla bla bla I'm so smart bla bla bla.
I don't care if analogies are spot on or not, I don't care if people get my point or not I will keep expressing myself the way I want.
Fact is, Assetto Corsa and (apparently because I never tried it) iracing are almost impossible to play in a competitive way with a controller because of it's simulator assets or whatever technical stuff someone else might be up to explain

 

[mrPetros]

also, did I say I really love this pic?

composition and colors and stuff... its what pd makes damn well

 

[Robbks]

Cars are easy to drive, yes.
Race-cars are also easy to drive,
if you drive them in the manner intended. i.e hot tyres, hard braking and at high speed.

the Simulator (or Game) allows the "fear factor" to be taken away, this allow Mr Average Joe to drive an LMP or GT3 car in the manner intended.
So that it stays on the road.

Take the example of Hammond driving the Formula Renault, WSR and F1.
the boy CAN drive proper race cars, but doing so at teh speed they require in real life is a differet kettle of fish



We also don't have the benefit (or maybe handicap) of the precise controls from each car.
Have you ever used a multi-plate clutch and a dog-engagement gearbox?
How many times have you driven at over 200km/h?

No consumer game provides that sense of speed or fear (which in turn becomes adrenaline, and fun if you can do it enough)
to slow you down.

 

[TS050]

also, did I say I really love this pic?

composition and colors and stuff... its what pd makes damn well

this has nothing to do with Kaz's quote