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"Must be played" is not what is in debate, at least from me. It's very hard to be competitive and extremely difficult to set good laps is where I'm standing for.
If someone interpretated differently that's all my fault.
Kazunori Yamauchi: Driving Simulators Shouldn't be Difficult
- Thread starter GTPNewsWire
- 270 comments
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If someone interpretated differently that's all my fault.
"These games are generally seen as more difficult to become truly good at — especially with a controller."
How can it be a simulation if you are driving with a hand held controller? Haven't seen too many cars being driven with a Playstation controller lately....
A 'simulation' is exactly that... it simulates driving a car. It should not be easy to drive using a hand held controller..... If you want easy, go and 'play' a Daytona arcade game....
How can it be a simulation if you are driving with a hand held controller? Haven't seen too many cars being driven with a Playstation controller lately....
A 'simulation' is exactly that... it simulates driving a car. It should not be easy to drive using a hand held controller..... If you want easy, go and 'play' a Daytona arcade game....
- 27,387
- Toronto
- NewAesthetic
- SlipZtrEm
Ah, but people have turned poker into a profession, nevermind a hobby — does that mean it's no longer a game either?
I think @Joey D's comment was more aimed at those that look down on controller users, or insist the only "proper" way to enjoy a game like GT is with a wheel. It's the no true Scotsman approach, and it only serves to fracture the community, not build it.
I echo his sentiments about more driver aids: the wider the net that's cast, the more potential players for the genre, and the better chances of it continuing to pump out titles. The important caveat I always add is that aids should never change the underlying physics: they should help less experienced players learn the existing systems. SRF is not the sort of aid I believe helps.
The example I always go back to is my girlfriend trying to take her then real-world car (the lowly Yaris) around the Top Gear Test Track in FM4. At first, she had all manner of driving aids on, including rewind. Slowly, as she got more comfortable with the controls, she weened herself off most of them. I imagine for the more traditional gamer, the credit incentive to do so surely helps, too.
It's cool sim racing has become a hobby in itself now. I don't believe anybody is arguing that that should stop — if anything, it's that some folks so caught up in justifying their outlay are calling for all racing games to have terrible pad optimization for... reasons? Speaking of:
You're free to express yourself the way you want so long as it's within the AUP. That means you can continue making inaccurate analogies — but expect people to point it out. Here's just one reason wheel elitism is silly.
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- GTP_SEMS
One of the main thing I took away from my time during GTacademy. Driving cars like the formula 3000, Nissan GTR and a race prepped 370Z is easy enough...... well aside from the caterham, that thing loves to have its rear loose.
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- mannjonusa
I was going to ask how many members have raced these kinds of cars in reality, and I guess the answer will mostly be the same as yours.
The only difference, I guess, is fear of death IRL
Must take a few tenths off your best virtual times...
- 15,532
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- GTP_SEMS
I was going to ask how many members have raced these kinds of cars in reality, and I guess the answer will mostly be the same as yours.
The only difference, I guess, is fear of death IRL
You'd be surprised how little you feel that in a competitive environment. The key missing factors for me are the G-forces and sense of speed. I remember the first thing that caught me off guard is the braking performance of the GTR. You have to wire your brain that it is physically possible for this giant car to brake that late.
- 30
- racecarman
I like the way Its drives, my only complaint is it still feels like your floating on the road, everything else is fantastic. Just have an option for more feel when driving, I can drive my real Subaru at 20 mph and have more feel than anything in this beta, just turn it up a bit, it there i feel it a little, just need a little more. make it go to 11...
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FPV MIC
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- GT-MIC
Being partially disabled myself I went to a few disability shows when I was looking at ways to modify my vehicles. It was a real I opener to what can be done on cars and bikes these days. One of the vendors had a van set up that could be legally driven on the road with one joystick in a similar way to combining the function of both sticks on a DS3/DS4, amazing stuffHow silly was it using a steering wheel driving this?
I'd like any disabled people that drive, to chime in on this discussion. Seriously...
Additionally, If I take a controller and attach it to steering rack, it would be similar to this:
- 3,346
- Albania
I get it but, I race with a lot of people, I listen to a lot of people and I tend to express my opinions around what surrounds me and not much in a very, very personal way unless is something that touches me personally.
As an example, I never raced Assetto with a controller... never! But i know people that did so my opinion tends to be a general catch of what that people told me about the experience.
I might be hard to make me understand clearly sometimes because I'm not "English" but i think i was pretty clear when I said that simulators are terrible to play with controllers being the steering wheel the way to go... Not that you HAVE to but you SHOULD.
- 5,065
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- That_sneaky_azN
- 15
- Australia
- rinkly72
Been racing online with friends since i was 70yrs old on GT and Forza,lots of fun and made good online friends. Now i will be 79 in August and no longer able to keep up as before,but can still put up some good fast lap times. mainly because i don't have other traffic to contend with. I agree wholeheartedly with Kazunori it is not difficult to drive a vehicle so it should not be to hard playing a video game. It sounds like i will be enjoying driving in GT Sport when it is released. ( i speak from experience having been a commercial driver for many years Semis and Coaches ) Might see you on the track.
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Driving a car is not difficult. I was driving long before I got my license and I never found it difficult.
Go-Karts, for example, are not difficult to drive or handle. With a little bit of practice, most people can navigate their way around a track while exercising a proper line. The question is not about doing - it's about excelling.
This isn't limited to driving, either. I love playing music and practice playing various instruments. When I play piano, sure I can play pieces written by Beethoven and Chopin - and to the untrained ear, it'll sound damn good, but when heard next to a true professional, the experience changes. Suddenly you hear the impulses in my piece and me playing starts to sound more like meat and potatoes.
Driving is no different. Much like music, it doesn't ask much of you. I've instructed buyers of high performance cars who had little to no track experience and they could drive their Porsches, Ferraris and McLarens without any issues. But to squeeze every drop of performance out of a vehicle as one does in Motorsport - that is playing Fur Elise the way Beethoven intended.
Driving is easy; Racing is easy; Winning is hard.
Go-Karts, for example, are not difficult to drive or handle. With a little bit of practice, most people can navigate their way around a track while exercising a proper line. The question is not about doing - it's about excelling.
This isn't limited to driving, either. I love playing music and practice playing various instruments. When I play piano, sure I can play pieces written by Beethoven and Chopin - and to the untrained ear, it'll sound damn good, but when heard next to a true professional, the experience changes. Suddenly you hear the impulses in my piece and me playing starts to sound more like meat and potatoes.
Driving is no different. Much like music, it doesn't ask much of you. I've instructed buyers of high performance cars who had little to no track experience and they could drive their Porsches, Ferraris and McLarens without any issues. But to squeeze every drop of performance out of a vehicle as one does in Motorsport - that is playing Fur Elise the way Beethoven intended.
Driving is easy; Racing is easy; Winning is hard.
- 1,438
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- Insomniac_driver
Or the money to buy every 5 or 6 years a 600 USD hardware to have "true simulation"
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
I know what you mean. I played quite a bit of American Truck Simulator and I don't think I'd have any problem driving around the city with a 53 footer behind me, hauling a 40 ton excavator, backing up in between parked trailers and such. It's quite easy at home with my G27. I'm thinking about popping into Laidlaw and dropping off my sim driving resume next week actually.
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- TeamACRZARacingo
- GyroxOpex
Cars have also been rigged with electric actuators on the steering wheel, throttle, and brake to be driven remotely with an RC controller. Because of course it's been tried.I'd like any disabled people that drive, to chime in on this discussion. Seriously...
If the actuators in a real remotely-controlled car were powerful and responsive enough to replicate the inputs in a videogame, I would volunteer to drive one. If it was somehow equipped with smart velocity- and force-based dampening on the steering input like a videogame, I'm sure I could lap a racetrack from the driver's seat.
That's a good example to illustrate why it's unreasonable to insist that sims ought to be inherently difficult to handle with a controller.
The common argument is that you only have the limited input of a small analog stick for steering, and translating that X-axis to the simulated steering rack should naturally be difficult to handle. But most racing games smooth and dampen your input, and I think they should. Dampening is obligatory for a racing sim to "simulate" realistic wheel input and provide valuable feedback; it's no crutch or assist unless it crosses a line into actual handholding.
Circling back to the thread topic, steering the car with an analog stick should be about as easy as with a wheel or in a real car, not more or less difficult. A player should be able to achieve flow and focus on their line, tires, etc. which is what race driving is really about. Real racecar drivers aren't out there grappling with fundamental steering inputs.
Which then brings me to QWOP -- expecting controller users to drive sims with 1:1 input and have a hard time with it because dampening is an "assist" is like expecting action/FPS players to run and jump with controls like QWOP.
- 50,749
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- SpacedustDaddy
If someone can make a FFB Controller cheap enough, it would be end of discussion(not really).Cars have also been rigged with electric actuators on the steering wheel, throttle, and brake to be driven remotely with an RC controller. Because of course it's been tried.
If the actuators in a real remotely-controlled car were powerful and responsive enough to replicate the inputs in a videogame, I would volunteer to drive one. If it was somehow equipped with smart velocity- and force-based dampening on the steering input like a videogame, I'm sure I could lap a racetrack from the driver's seat.
That's a good example to illustrate why it's unreasonable to insist that sims ought to be inherently difficult to handle with a controller.
The common argument is that you only have the limited input of a small analog stick for steering, and translating that X-axis to the simulated steering rack should naturally be difficult to handle. But most racing games smooth and dampen your input, and I think they should. Dampening is obligatory for a racing sim to "simulate" realistic wheel input and provide valuable feedback; it's no crutch or assist unless it crosses a line into actual handholding.
Circling back to the thread topic, steering the car with an analog stick should be about as easy as with a wheel or in a real car, not more or less difficult. A player should be able to achieve flow and focus on their line, tires, etc. which is what race driving is really about. Real racecar drivers aren't out there grappling with fundamental steering inputs.
Which then brings me to QWOP -- expecting controller users to drive sims with 1:1 input and have a hard time with it because dampening is an "assist" is like expecting action/FPS players to run and jump with controls like QWOP.
The controls on an RC are just about right(no doubt servos speeds and all that). Adjusting the speed sensitivity virtually, still makes the steering "feel" a bit disconnected.
I mean, the control sticks move too fast. It's like that initial feel of using a wheel for the first time. Overcorrecting becomes the reaction. If the D-pad/controller had the resistance, I think steering would be much smoother by anyone new to driving games.
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- Johnnypenso
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- leeboy910
I agree with Kaz. Driving a car is not difficult and a simulator should accurately reflect that.
I've driven a substantial amount of cars on both road and track (as an idea, I've driven F3, Formula Ford, Subaru WRC, Ferrari 458, Lamborghini Gallardo, V8 Supercar, Nissan GT-R, Evo X and many many more). I've not driven competitively (except karts) but have driven cars to their limits on tracks (and road...shhh!!).
Driving a car to its limits is not difficult, as the one thing that stops most people from doing it is fear. That fear is fed by the unknown (meaning, how a car will react when you push it). Once you've had some experience and understand a car and gain the confidence, pushing to the limit isn't really that difficult at all. I'm not saying it is easy, but almost anyone could do it given the correct training and if they apply themselves correctly.
The learning curve and sweet spot for different vehicles is vastly different. For example, the Ferrari 458 has a reasonably small sweet spot, whereby the limit is easily exceeded if you aren't experienced. The Nissan GT-R however, is easy to push hard and slide around 'like a pro'. It is just as difficult to drive a GT-R at the edge as it is a 458, but the learning curve is much steeper on the 458. Once you know how, it becomes a lot easier.
So Kaz is right in my opinion. It's easy to drive cars, you just need to have the confidence and knowledge to rid yourself of the fear which comes through experience and training.
Engineering a car and setting it up to go faster...now that's a completely different story!
I've driven a substantial amount of cars on both road and track (as an idea, I've driven F3, Formula Ford, Subaru WRC, Ferrari 458, Lamborghini Gallardo, V8 Supercar, Nissan GT-R, Evo X and many many more). I've not driven competitively (except karts) but have driven cars to their limits on tracks (and road...shhh!!).
Driving a car to its limits is not difficult, as the one thing that stops most people from doing it is fear. That fear is fed by the unknown (meaning, how a car will react when you push it). Once you've had some experience and understand a car and gain the confidence, pushing to the limit isn't really that difficult at all. I'm not saying it is easy, but almost anyone could do it given the correct training and if they apply themselves correctly.
The learning curve and sweet spot for different vehicles is vastly different. For example, the Ferrari 458 has a reasonably small sweet spot, whereby the limit is easily exceeded if you aren't experienced. The Nissan GT-R however, is easy to push hard and slide around 'like a pro'. It is just as difficult to drive a GT-R at the edge as it is a 458, but the learning curve is much steeper on the 458. Once you know how, it becomes a lot easier.
So Kaz is right in my opinion. It's easy to drive cars, you just need to have the confidence and knowledge to rid yourself of the fear which comes through experience and training.
Engineering a car and setting it up to go faster...now that's a completely different story!
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- NewAesthetic
- SlipZtrEm
It isn't all the way there, but the XB1 controller's rumbly triggers really are a game-changer for racing games on pad, particularly with braking. I feel like I know precisely where the threshold lies with ABS off.
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