Gran Turismo is "Taking on New Challenges", says Kazunori Yamauchi

[Revengel]

Bro it's literally an article on the GT Planet website. It's one of the recent ones. The numbers and revenue created is right there.

True; I actually mentioned the article in what you quoted in case you glanced over it, but remember a couple of things:

1: "According to the leak, GT Sport sold 12.726 million copies worldwide as of what appears to be March 2019, around a year and a half after its release in October 2017. "

2: "The leak appears to contain data valid through the end of February 2022, around one week before Gran Turismo 7 launched on March 4. As of that time, the data reports GT7 had received 580,000 pre-orders, 37% of which were digital. No other specific information about GT7 has yet been discovered in the leak."

This means that we a) don't know how well GT7 has sold in comparison and b) we also don't have official numbers from Sony/PD on the issue.

We do have this article from GT Planet (linked in the article) which could be interpreted that the sales numbers are underreported across the board . . . assuming the leak is accurate.

Spoiler: Math and ramblings . . .

Some basic math follows:

3.3 million to 12.7 million in 18 months' time suggests sales multiplied by roughly 3.8 times over that period. However I'd personally shy away from using this as a marker or a vector as we don't have other "actual" numbers provided by a data leak from Sony's financial division. We could use the same ratio to extrapolate GT7 numbers, but (again) that is speculation. But something like that could suggest similar numbers for GT7 and all other titles. Curious if this game was such a success why Sony wouldn't scream this from the rooftops.

This kind of depends on pre-release numbers, if I can find those for GT sport. If pre-release numbers are similar to GT7 then perhaps we have enough for a very, very loose algorithm. But this is all speculation on my part.

The above doesn't address the issue of the reception to GT Sport for not having a single-player mode as robust as what was expected.

Much was made on the forums and social media about this issue; perhaps we're all (beginning with me) reading too much into the protests? If so, that's a lesson moving forward (economy complaints, I'm looking at you . . . )

(sorry for the late reply)

 

[KAZis-a-Clown]

“To try and cover all of their demands and needs is very difficult, actually,”

No, wrong. Its actually totally easy. Its the easiest thing in the world. He doesnt even need to be creative.

Since how many decades people demand current german cars? And what do we get? Still old Audi R8's.

People want all kinds of wheels. What do we get? The same old wheels we had in GT5. DLC? No its impossible for Kaz.

What about drifting? We had 7 GT Games and not even one had a drift track. How embarrassing is that? But we do have 5 Million Photo Location and nonsensical Snow tracks.

Its beyond me why people still buy his dusty games. I played every single part, even the Tokyo Demo etc, and GT7 will be the last i bought. Sick of this clown Kazunori acting like the motorsport world revolves around him, while he cant even fix his game or keep his promises. We still missing tons of promised cars years later, but he talks about challenges and how hard it is to fulfill the needs of all gamers? No, its Kaz who forgot that he is a game developer and he doesnt even have the balls to resign, he just keeps on with his BS and he doesnt care about GT7 players at all. The whole online system got worse, you get beamed off the track for driving somewhere where you dont even get an advantage. I could go on for hours with whats wrong with GT7, but Kazunori will keep on with his fairytale of taking GT to the next level.

 

[Yard_Sale]

“To try and cover all of their demands and needs is very difficult, actually,”

No, wrong. Its actually totally easy. Its the easiest thing in the world. He doesnt even need to be creative.

Since how many decades people demand current german cars? And what do we get? Still old Audi R8's.

People want all kinds of wheels. What do we get? The same old wheels we had in GT5. DLC? No its impossible for Kaz.

What about drifting? We had 7 GT Games and not even one had a drift track. How embarrassing is that? But we do have 5 Million Photo Location and nonsensical Snow tracks.

Its beyond me why people still buy his dusty games. I played every single part, even the Tokyo Demo etc, and GT7 will be the last i bought. Sick of this clown Kazunori acting like the motorsport world revolves around him, while he cant even fix his game or keep his promises. We still missing tons of promised cars years later, but he talks about challenges and how hard it is to fulfill the needs of all gamers? No, its Kaz who forgot that he is a game developer and he doesnt even have the balls to resign, he just keeps on with his BS and he doesnt care about GT7 players at all. The whole online system got worse, you get beamed off the track for driving somewhere where you dont even get an advantage. I could go on for hours with whats wrong with GT7, but Kazunori will keep on with his fairytale of taking GT to the next level.

That bold writing that you referenced in your post? The thing about Kaz saying how difficult it is to please everyone….

That’s a pretty specific set of demands you just laid out.

Just sayin

 

[MatskiMonk]

I could go on for hours...

Thanks for the warning

 

[redhed17]

Since how many decades people demand current german cars? And what do we get? Still old Audi R8's.

Considering the design route BMW have gone down recently, 🤮 I think they may be doing us a favour. 👍 Having some of those BMW's have the chance of popping up in replays, in all their hideous detail, may be enough to stop me using the replays, just in case.

 

[dazdilly75]

True; I actually mentioned the article in what you quoted in case you glanced over it, but remember a couple of things:

1: "According to the leak, GT Sport sold 12.726 million copies worldwide as of what appears to be March 2019, around a year and a half after its release in October 2017. "

2: "The leak appears to contain data valid through the end of February 2022, around one week before Gran Turismo 7 launched on March 4. As of that time, the data reports GT7 had received 580,000 pre-orders, 37% of which were digital. No other specific information about GT7 has yet been discovered in the leak."

This means that we a) don't know how well GT7 has sold in comparison and b) we also don't have official numbers from Sony/PD on the issue.

We do have this article from GT Planet (linked in the article) which could be interpreted that the sales numbers are underreported across the board . . . assuming the leak is accurate.

Spoiler: Math and ramblings . . .

Some basic math follows:

3.3 million to 12.7 million in 18 months' time suggests sales multiplied by roughly 3.8 times over that period. However I'd personally shy away from using this as a marker or a vector as we don't have other "actual" numbers provided by a data leak from Sony's financial division. We could use the same ratio to extrapolate GT7 numbers, but (again) that is speculation. But something like that could suggest similar numbers for GT7 and all other titles. Curious if this game was such a success why Sony wouldn't scream this from the rooftops.

This kind of depends on pre-release numbers, if I can find those for GT sport. If pre-release numbers are similar to GT7 then perhaps we have enough for a very, very loose algorithm. But this is all speculation on my part.

The above doesn't address the issue of the reception to GT Sport for not having a single-player mode as robust as what was expected.

Much was made on the forums and social media about this issue; perhaps we're all (beginning with me) reading too much into the protests? If so, that's a lesson moving forward (economy complaints, I'm looking at you . . . )

(sorry for the late reply)

Valid points, but I am basing my argument solely on the GT Planet article. I trust the journalism here, to give us fairly accurate findings and not just click bait. That being said, I don't think GT Sport was ever meant to prioritise single player? This was probably a shock to the purists, but it was also the reason it gained the franchise a whole new audience, who tagged along to GT7, thinking it would be an extension of GT sport, (when it was anything but). GT Sports success, (regardless of exact numbers ) proved that there is indeed a market for prioritised online competition, within the franchise. Which is why I think GT Sport 2 would make complete sense. Take the format from GT7's dynamism and plunge it into a competitive racer, only this time, with even more depth, with more car classes. I don't see how it wouldn't succeed? Especially in gaining back the trust and respect of the FIA, which is what GT7 was meant to do, but failed miserably.

 

[wheelhp]

It's now more realistic and more complex. You can't just slam the suspension and beef up the springs and expect every car to corner like it's on rails. That's true in the game and in real life.

If you want to get specific, instead of these platitudes. This is not at all what I'm referring to. They've not polished the physics enough for even that to be enjoyable.. Like I said in the other thread, switch off all the aids and try to drive a breadth of FR cars.. FR cars in this game understeer and no amount of tuning, aero or downforce makes it work like it should. Have you played any racing sims or even Just assetto corsa? because That is entirely unrealistic and unacceptable. But drive the MR and RR porsches in GT7, those handle just fine with and without tuning. You're wrong about this. IRL You can quite literally lower a car, give it some nice coilover springs, locked diff and all that it WILL handle better than the one in GT7. There's something amiss with the tyre model in GT7 that throws off the whole balance. Kaz needs to FIX that. But I will say GT7 does a good job with the traction control. It's way more realistic than GT Sport and is fun to mess with, but turning off all driving aids except ABS and you'll realise the tyre model sucks, is incomplete and a chore on a controller. Lower speed cars it seems to mask itself somewhat, a moot point, but the issues creep up when you overdrive the car and realise it's the crap tyre model. Many sims have a much better tyre model than GT7, even older sims that don't look as good graphically, like Assetto Corsa from 2014, still beats this game's simulation when it comes to the tyre model physics. This is irrefutable

 

[Revengel]

Valid points, but I am basing my argument solely on the GT Planet article. I trust the journalism here, to give us fairly accurate findings and not just click bait.

Agreed on the trust of the article; it's sourcing credible facts.

That being said, I don't think GT Sport was ever meant to prioritise single player? This was probably a shock to the purists, but it was also the reason it gained the franchise a whole new audience, who tagged along to GT7, thinking it would be an extension of GT sport, (when it was anything but). GT Sports success, (regardless of exact numbers ) proved that there is indeed a market for prioritised online competition, within the franchise.

It never was, and that's why there was a firestorm which may have been just a tempest in a teapot. People purchased GT Sport quite a bit based on the numbers quoted in the article . . . suggesting the complaints on forums like this about the lack of single player content - which was never supposed to be a main feature in GT Sport - were not something PD should take to heart.

Which is why I think GT Sport 2 would make complete sense. Take the format from GT7's dynamism and plunge it into a competitive racer, only this time, with even more depth, with more car classes. I don't see how it wouldn't succeed? Especially in gaining back the trust and respect of the FIA, which is what GT7 was meant to do, but failed miserably.

Likely my biggest disappointment for Gran Turismo 7. Zero lies detected here.

If you want to get specific, instead of these platitudes.

I'm here for it.

This is not at all what I'm referring to. They've not polished the physics enough for even that to be enjoyable..

not enjoyable for you . . . but let's continue.

Like I said in the other thread, switch off all the aids and try to drive a breadth of FR cars.. FR cars in this game understeer and no amount of tuning, aero or downforce makes it work like it should.

False. Later in my reply I'll get into more specifics but based on a number of FR cars I've driven in real life - including a C4 (not a ZR1 to be fair) and a Trans Am, I can vouch for the (memory) of the experience.

I'll get into more specifics on this in a minute . . .

Have you played any racing sims or even Just assetto corsa? because That is entirely unrealistic and unacceptable. But drive the MR and RR porsches in GT7, those handle just fine with and without tuning. You're wrong about this.

Haven driven a few cars that appear in GT7 in actual life (two on the track no less, one a Gen III Supra) that is just not the case. If you get the chance to drive an early '80s 911 - perhaps you have, maybe not - you would already know they definitely handle differently than any other car of that era. That takes some time to get used to (especially coming from a 924 - girlfriend at the time) and you absolutely need to know what you're doing. The '81 911 Turbo in the game is so spot on from my limited experience it's creepy.

First Gen NSX as well, but for that I was in the passenger seat only.

IRL You can quite literally lower a car, give it some nice coilover springs, locked diff and all that it WILL handle better than the one in GT7.

The key thing here is "lower" =/= "slam it down" and the springs have to be adjusted properly. A lower center of gravity can and will help handling to a point, but it can be overdone. The same is true for "Stancing" a car - camber needs to be adjusted properly.

There's something amiss with the tyre model in GT7 that throws off the whole balance. Kaz needs to FIX that. But I will say GT7 does a good job with the traction control. It's way more realistic than GT Sport and is fun to mess with, but turning off all driving aids except ABS and you'll realise the tyre model sucks, is incomplete and a chore on a controller.

Ok, I think I see why we are so far apart.

I only use ABS with online races; the other assists I don't use (and that's been true since . . . maybe GT 4 or 5p for me?)

A bigger difference is I'm using a wheel, pedals, stick shift and driving in V.R. while you're using a controller. Based on the interface each of us use and what we rely upon, we're going to detect changes very differently.

Lower speed cars it seems to mask itself somewhat, a moot point, but the issues creep up when you overdrive the car and realise it's the crap tyre model. Many sims have a much better tyre model than GT7, even older sims that don't look as good graphically, like Assetto Corsa from 2014, still beats this game's simulation when it comes to the tyre model physics. This is irrefutable

"When you overdrive the car" answers the question. If I overdrive a Camry in a parking lot, that's not when the real life tire physics show flaws. I simply put the car/chassis/wheel/engine/tire combination past it's engineered limit.

Again, I suspect a chunk of this is due to GT7 being optimized for a wheel, and I use a wheel. You use a controller. The two experiences are definitely different in any driving sim/simcade/insert-term-here.

And that difference is irrefutable.



Thank you for my morning coffee.

 

[wheelhp]

The '81 911 Turbo in the game is so spot on from my limited experience it's creepy.

I think you misunderstand again. This is in agreement with me. MR and RR cars like this 911 turbo (rear engined, meaning RR layout) is Exactly what I stated as being "just fine" in GT7. It's some of the FR (Front-engined, rear driven) cars that I'm saying don't play well on a controller. NOT the MR/ RR cars. However improving tyre model will help across the board. If PD is even considering such...That however will not be a revolution for GT7, just a small evolution. Since there's little chance Spec III will happen, if et all. And still it will be FAR behind Assetto Corsa (2014) Tyre model.

You do not mention if you have played any of actual sims like Assetto Corsa, so you're not familiar with how much better the other simulations are, therefore you're too impressed with what GT7 is offering to say anything bad about it. What's realistic to one person is "not realistic enough" to another who has played those other sims extensively, yes on a wheel mind you for hundreds of hours if not thousands. GT7 doesn't hold a candle to the other sims if I'm totally honest. GT7 is squarely a console game, if it ever released on PC it would have to compete with much better sims and it would be mocked endlessly for how behind the curve it is in the physics department alone. From the kiddie assists to the hidden grip and reverse assists and of course the oversimplified tyre model, weird aero, lack of a proper damage model, lack of FOV adjustments, no cockpit seat adjustments, bad clutch simulation, no clutch damage, Headlights barely function, no rain on multiple tracks, usage of terribly generic fantasy tracks like Alscace and fisherman due to missing several locations etc etc

Again, I suspect a chunk of this is due to GT7 being optimized for a wheel, and I use a wheel. You use a controller. The two experiences are definitely different in any driving sim/simcade/insert-term-here.

I used a 900 degree rotation wheel with a clutch pedal for every sim game right up till GT7, only because it's incompatible with my "older tech". So I gave the controller a good 300+ hours try and it's overall a chore without all the kiddie assists. Even GT Sport was more fun on the controller, but the wheel handling in that game was laughably bad, cars were on rails. Seems with GT7 the tables have turned, the wheel handling is probably a lot better but the controller handling is poop. Which is probably expected, you can't play a sim like Assetto or Project Cars 2 on a controller anywho. Many have tried, lol. But I expected Gt7 to pull it off as they are targeting the couch crowd and at least in my opinion, they missed the mark on enjoyment alone. Whereas Forza''s tried and true handling model still seems to play like Forza...with the bonus of much better more realistic physics than their previous titles as the years go on. Forza 4 being a favourite and still fun to play on a controller to this day. GT7's physics are an unpolished, unfinished hackjob compared to even the likes of Forza. If you want to call it realistic for a gaem, you may do so but know everyone who's played Assetto or Even Project Cars 2 will just laugh you off if you try to call GT7 as "the most realistic driving simulation to exist at this time". That's just not true for any of GT's games except perhaps when the very first GT released over 20 years ago, but even then I'm positive PC sims were still a thing, but very much not mainstream.

In the PC Sim world everyone talks about the detailed tyre model of said simulation constantly, it's a heated debate. Be it Iracing, Asseto, whichever sim, they all talk about it. Nobody talks about it in GT7 because there's nothing new or great about GT7's tyre model. It's relatively speaking, ancient tech. Small improvement over GT Sport. Does the job but not a mile more.

 

[Revengel]

I think you misunderstand again. This is in agreement with me. MR and RR cars like this 911 turbo (rear engined, meaning RR layout) is Exactly what I stated as being "just fine" in GT7.

Re-reading my reply, I wasn't complete. That's entirely my error.

The cars handle the way I remember them. To be more precise, it's very easy to get "out of shape" in the 911 if you drive it like a FR car. After doing a few laps at Deep Forest the muscle memory kicked in and I was flying around the track . . . even drifting a little bit. But when I initially drove it using my BMW Z8 skillset - a car I love to take on Deep Forest - the back end was all over the place!

Not unlike when I went from a 924 to a 911 many moons ago.

It's some of the FR (Front-engined, rear driven) cars that I'm saying don't play well on a controller. NOT the MR/ RR cars.

Again, my error in how I responded. Hopefully fixed above.

However improving tyre model will help across the board. If PD is even considering such...That however will not be a revolution for GT7, just a small evolution. Since there's little chance Spec III will happen, if et all. And still it will be FAR behind Assetto Corsa (2014) Tyre model.

I suspect we'll disagree on the tire model, but that's ok!

looks at internet See? People are allowed to disagree and it's not the end of the world!

I used a 900 degree rotation wheel with a clutch pedal for every sim game right up till GT7, only because it's incompatible with my "older tech". So I gave the controller a good 300+ hours try and it's overall a chore without all the kiddie assists. Even GT Sport was more fun on the controller, but the wheel handling in that game was laughably bad, cars were on rails.

We . . . have had very different experiences using a wheel then.

For all most of GT Sport (started with a Driving Force Pro) and most of GT7 (roughly 1500 hours worth of GT7 - just got a G 923 as an anniversary present recently) I used a G29 wheel . . . and I would state that cars were not close to being "on rails" in GT Sport. Were that the case I would have reached A rank much sooner!

For a short time, I did play GT Sport on a controller . . . and rejoiced when I got back on the wheel. It's not that I was bad on a controller; I've used a controller since Gran Turismo and Gran Turismo 2 before getting my first wheel during my Gran Turismo 3 (a-spec) days. However, the experience for me was better with a wheel in Gran Turismo Sport.

Different minds can think differently.

And that's ok.

 

[wheelhp]

Fun experiment for anyone: Have you ever tried GT Sport on nurburgring24hr in a Group C car, whilst overturning the wheel like a madman around every corner? The hidden assists makes it very obvious... its a railroad, lol

there was a video of Austin someone doing this on youtube, it's just hilarious

Also, I'm not saying I'm a better driver or anything, I'm a pretty average inconsistent driver overall, still DR B (SR S), was once A but didn't find the racing clean enough to maintain, lol. but my specialty is examining the various intricacies of the physics engines in any game. That's all I do, I don't bother caring about winning every race, it's not all that interesting if you beat me by three tenths of a second in a video game. But I do care if a game breaks my illusion of realism, unfortunately modern GT does.


I did play GT Sport on both wheel and controller extensively, but have yet to Play wheel properly on GT7

What I did find interesting about GT Sport was the grip going into a corner was always a bit elusive or different if you didn't know the car. It was very obvious the importance of throttle control. THey did manage to recreate that feeling on the wheel, so that is the one thing I very much liked about GT Sport. GT7 then I could say expanded upon that, but the overall controller handling is less fun as a result since the physics are still a Work In Progress.

In summation I think GT7 is worse than GT Sport on a controller, with all assists off, the enjoyment is worse.

But conversely GT7 is very likely MUCH more enjoyable on a Wheel than GT Sport on the same wheel

 

[PorscheHD]

I'd love that but I don't see it happening, GT franchise is one of the big exclusives on PS consoles and IMHO an important console saler.

Sony Sony like exclusives (Activision case) haha but i know…. Shame.

Of Forza Gets its **** together on pc i should be enough. Sometimes i bood GT7 on PS4 Some times and how It looks and cars models are just pOrn even on PS4. But buying a PS5 for only GT7 is a bit extreme. I am a pc gamer…

 

[equalitus]

Speaking of hate that's all there is around here .

Funny you spend 70 dollars on a game then you play 18 hours a day then make comments online droning one for days about how much you hate the game you bought then you sit there for 80 hours a week living in your sim chair doing nothing else with your life but hating and complaining and playing gt7 then cry about it online

Here's a challenge for you sell the game and take the hate elsewhere

I hate the oldies who plaster this site going on an on about a car or the internet or a scape or a rubber band talking about how terrible it is

I'm like look over there it's iracing please leave so i have more server space

Can't even come on here to read about my favorite game without reading 79 billion comments about how terrible some stip1d scape is or a vgt

Hell even on the daily race discussion or time trial threads it's the same thing

Oh whoa was me oh horrible kaz muh update muh vgt whine whine whine

Just make an editor or give us options in single player where we decide all the options. Gives tremendously much more fun.