Kazunori Yamauchi Reveals "AI League" in Stanford University Lecture

[SlipZtrEm]

Why the AI in the latest GTs is so slow?! In comparison, Forza is far from perfection but at least it's competitive.

The irony of course is that the Drivatar system is, in essence, what Kazunori is talking about with regards to getting player data. That's what Forza's been doing for half a decade.

And, as anybody who's spent a decent amount of time with it will tell you, that's a problem.

If Drivatars are representative of the average player, well then the average player is pretty bad. That's not terribly surprising, really; the idea that most casuals playing FM/GT ram other (AI) cars or drive with poor lines isn't far-fetched. But if a program is drawing from the entire playerbase, then the majority will dictate how that ends up.

It unfortunately creates a bit of a negative-feedback loop, though. Say I'm running a race against argy-bargey AI drivers in FM7. The near-constant contact will transfer over to my Drivatar, who will then cause more issues for friends that race against him. I've never been entirely sure if the game counts all contacts or just tallies them up post-race (meaning Rewind could theoretically provide you a cleaner race — or way more contacts than seems possible in a single 15min go).

Out of the two problems — situational awareness, and outright speed — I'd think the latter is the easier one to solve. But the former is challenging because humans are so prone to errors. You have to find the balance between a robotic conga line and a parade of incompetence.

 

[Stephen220378]

So that makes it the worst in history? I mean, I wont even go deep here (uhhh, pole position for example), clearly you havent played any of the new NFS titles...

NFS is an Arcade racer, AI in games like that is neither here nor there.... Would you **** on The Crew for having **** AI? Me Either. It's like hearing a beautiful woman fart, you just shut your mouth, go with the flow and let some **** slide.

So let's look at in history, with the computing power and technology there's no excuse for GT to still be as bad as the first one that came out in 1997, which it is.

 

[Rallywagon]

I cant help your ambiguity. "Racing game" and "in history" leave a lot of room for interpretation. I dont disagree with your statement now though. Their AI is very bad. Not the worst in history bad, but appalling for current racing sims. But.... it was a bit of an after thought since it's really more geared for online racing as opposed to say, Forza. Even Project Cars has a far better career mode. Actually, Project cars has the best I feel. Its more "real" i guess, where you can pick the way you want to go, be it open wheel, touring car, street car, etc. Is PCars 2's as good?

 

[infamousphil]

deleted

 

[simsimsheree]

I'm finding great hilarity in the knee-jerk responses to a post with 'worst in history', but no response to my 'currently the worst in the business'...

So, it this a tacit admission that it really is the current worst racing AI?

PD really make it hard for a fan to blanket deny everything..! I guess you have to pick on the most extreme description of any fault despite the actual state of things, or risk showing your colors.

If you need to race a race car in a Sambabus (OK, a slight exaggeration!) just to have a competitive race, then yes, the AI is excremental. I can set the AI in PC2 to the point that I can get lapped! I have to drop 3 grades of tire and a couple of car Groups before I struggle against the GT AI. That's about as realistic as tying one leg behind my back so I can compete in a 100yard dash without getting to the finish before everyone else is off the starting blocks.

Maybe it's time to stop piling on an extreme response, and seriously discuss the truth (which is still an utter failure for PD)..?

 

[Rallywagon]

I'm finding great hilarity in the knee-jerk responses to a post with 'worst in history', but no response to my 'currently the worst in the business'...

So, it this a tacit admission that it really is the current worst racing AI?

PD really make it hard for a fan to blanket deny everything..! I guess you have to pick on the most extreme description of any fault despite the actual state of things, or risk showing your colors.

If you need to race a race car in a Sambabus (OK, a slight exaggeration!) just to have a competitive race, then yes, the AI is excremental. I can set the AI in PC2 to the point that I can get lapped! I have to drop 3 grades of tire and a couple of car Groups before I struggle against the GT AI. That's about as realistic as tying one leg behind my back so I can compete in a 100yard dash without getting to the finish before everyone else is off the starting blocks.

Maybe it's time to stop piling on an extreme response, and seriously discuss the truth (which is still an utter failure for PD)..?

Im guessing you missed these....

I cant help your ambiguity. "Racing game" and "in history" leave a lot of room for interpretation. I dont disagree with your statement now though. Their AI is very bad. Not the worst in history bad, but appalling for current racing sims. But.... it was a bit of an after thought since it's really more geared for online racing as opposed to say, Forza. Even Project Cars has a far better career mode. Actually, Project cars has the best I feel. Its more "real" i guess, where you can pick the way you want to go, be it open wheel, touring car, street car, etc. Is PCars 2's as good?

NFS is an Arcade racer, AI in games like that is neither here nor there.... Would you **** on The Crew for having **** AI? Me Either. It's like hearing a beautiful woman fart, you just shut your mouth, go with the flow and let some **** slide.

So let's look at in history, with the computing power and technology there's no excuse for GT to still be as bad as the first one that came out in 1997, which it is.

Im pretty sure that this was echoed a time or two on the previous page as well.

 

[cjr3559]

I tend to race cars a couple of classes below the recommended. If its an N500 race, I'll use an N300. or if its a certain car, I'll use a couple tires below. Most of the pack is very slow, especially in the lower races. But there always tends to be a car or two that gives me a run for my money when I do it this way.

My guess is you knock the AI out of the way while working your way through the field. This is known as the GT AI “rabbit” effect where your sloppy driving causes the leading AI to sprint away. Not sure why this is a difficult concept for people to understand. It’s been this way since the very first GT game.

I must be too slow or way too polite and clean, because I must be the only person on the planet that can get a challenging and gratifying AI race whether I win or lose.

The only times I find the AI are weak are when I know the track and car combination extremely well.

 

[Rallywagon]

My guess is you knock the AI out of the way while working your way through the field. This is known as the GT AI “rabbit” effect where your sloppy driving causes the leading AI to sprint away. Not sure why this is a difficult concept for people to understand. It’s been this way since the very first GT game.

I must be too slow or way too polite and clean, because I must be the only person on the planet that can get a challenging and gratifying AI race whether I win or lose.

The only times I find the AI are weak are when I know the track and car combination extremely well.

You assume way to much fella.
Edit. To elaborate, i raced with SNAIL. Abd to that effect, i am being modest. I've got nearly a decade of being a contributing member of snail under my bent. We pride ourselves on always being clean, AI, human, or otherwise. Which is a nicer way of saying take your assumption and shove it.

 

[Stephen220378]

Im guessing you missed these....


Im pretty sure that this was echoed a time or two on the previous page as well.

And your point is...

 

[Rallywagon]

I'm finding great hilarity in the knee-jerk responses to a post with 'worst in history', but no response to my 'currently the worst in the business'...

to this was my point, that in fact the topic had been commented on.

 

[cjr3559]

You assume way to much fella.
Edit. To elaborate, i raced with SNAIL. Abd to that effect, i am being modest. I've got nearly a decade of being a contributing member of snail under my bent. We pride ourselves on always being clean, AI, human, or otherwise. Which is a nicer way of saying take your assumption and shove it.

Appreciate the modest and polite response. Thank you.

 

[PSN:And-War]

Spoiler

View attachment 723658

GT leaking our data

 

[Rallywagon]

Appreciate the modest and polite response. Thank you.

Yes, cause, calling someone a dirty driver youve never been on track with is oh so polite.

 

[05XR8]

My guess is you knock the AI out of the way while working your way through the field. This is known as the GT AI “rabbit” effect where your sloppy driving causes the leading AI to sprint away. Not sure why this is a difficult concept for people to understand. It’s been this way since the very first GT game.

I must be too slow or way too polite and clean, because I must be the only person on the planet that can get a challenging and gratifying AI race whether I win or lose.

The only times I find the AI are weak are when I know the track and car combination extremely well.

I have good races with the AI as well. After completing the 30 car Maggiore Challenge, I'd like to know if there will be improvements to the AI, during the life of this game. Was fun running the multi-class challenges.

 

[ShiftingGears]

Wow, Yamauchi espousing lofty ambitions that PD are completely incapable of properly implementing within the next decade?

Stop the press!

 

[Rallywagon]

Wow, Yamauchi espousing lofty ambitions that PD are completely incapable of properly implementing within the next decade?

Stop the press!

Not really though. there is no mention of a "PD team" working on anything, only a vague statement that GTS driver data is going to be used.
Honestly, other than the above and the mention of Bob, there is literally nothing in that article to extrapolate PD being involved. At best the are supplying some data. I am clueless as to why anyone would assume this means a b-spec mode or deep PD involvement... is there something in the videos posted that i missed?

 

[photonrider]

the AI of the GT, from the fifth chapter onwards, had as defect the little aggressiveness but was perfectly aware of what was happening in the race,

I agree - the difference in AI behaviour between GT4 and GT5 was night and day - the aggressiveness of the AI in GT3 was a far cry from the quick and 'logical' moves that the AI in GT6 make.

As you say, however, they seem to be more aware of what the player is doing (and yes, this has been discussed in detail years ago at the AI HUB including the use of player stats to program the AI.)
There is more communication between the AI (after 'chapter' 5 - GT5) working to make the race difficult for the player to win (considering that the AI default level is set at a point not to battle with aliens but with an average (usually young) video-gamer.
As well, the difference in Bob in GT4 to the four Bobs that could be 'personalized' in GT5 was also a leap.

Bob in GT4 is a very aggressive driver while Bob in GT6 is rather tame by comparison - but is an overall better driver making far less mistakes than those of his predecessor.
Would this be a 'defect'?
Well I'm not sure whether you really meant 'defect' or some other word - but it certainly is a new characteristic of the current level of GT AI.
We have to ask ourselves at this point - who really is the AI trying to satisfy?
What would be a 'benchmark' GT player?

I must admit that if anybody were to doubt what you said though all they have to do is have a half-hour session with GT3 then play GT6.
Night and day.

There is another qualification needed to really 'know' the AI - and that is constant and thorough time spent with them. If one races predominantly with humans all the time (with maybe only 10% of race time spent with AI across several games) the sample is far too small to make an informed opinion on it.

The bottom line everybody is after seems to be 'human-like' racers - but that's where the problem begins; if there is one thing predictable about humans - even racing humans - is that they are unpredictable.
Senna or JJ?

To focus more deeply into this topic - is Kaz going to bring back what we already had in GT5 - the ability to train and race our own Bobs online against each other?
That might actually make me buy a PS4 and GTS.

 

[simsimsheree]

I think the variation in 'appreciation' of the AI boils down to driver skill. As I said earlier, I'm not sure the exact figure, but, as a driver that managed top 10-20% of the leaderboards in GT6 TT and nowhere NEAR the top 100 until late in the game's run, after many had already split for the PS4, I found the AI laughable.

And no, I'm NOT bashing them out the way (this tells us a lot about the skill level of the person that accused it!). Who, with any skill whatsoever, ever needs to do that? You simply outbrake them as they drive like your granny into almost all corners. The only 'skill' needed is to decide whether you can outbrake them cleanly on the inside line or the outside line. But you can outbrake them, out accelerate them, cut track with no penalty (with penalties on), abuse runoff way more than they do, and beat them off the line as if they all started in 2nd.

Let's be clear here... If you aren't beating the AI with at least a couple of tire grades less than them and no aids, you really aren't in a position to judge how good or bad they are.

The issue with PD's 'drivatar' teaser is, are they going to use Joe Hack's data, or Tom Topdriver for this player data? My money os on Joe.

 

[Rallywagon]

Welp, since it appears they are using for an autonomous racing league, and not for the next gts update, i argue its probably going to be Tom.

 

[simsimsheree]

I am not sure GTS's player base gets much enjoyment from watching clean racer AI race each other..! For most arcade games, the more carnage, the more popular. PD are anything but unaware of this fact, and have never once done anything that might only appeal to real serious motorsports fans.

 

[cjr3559]

I think the variation in 'appreciation' of the AI boils down to driver skill. As I said earlier, I'm not sure the exact figure, but, as a driver that managed top 10-20% of the leaderboards in GT6 TT and nowhere NEAR the top 100 until late in the game's run, after many had already split for the PS4, I found the AI laughable.

Well, you’re referring to me in this post, so I’ll say with the bolded online stats it would be a no brainer the AI would be laughable, no?

And no, I haven’t banged around on the AI since I used a controller in GT4 well more than a decade ago.

Win win win!

 

[05XR8]

I've been racing at Dragon's Trail for most of my Custom Races. It appears, I may be wrong, buy it appears the AI are getting faster each time I race there.

I'm race the circuit, about 5-10 tines a day. No matter the car in Gr.3 and Gr.4, the AI are speedy. I race the AI cleanly, but I've noticed the AI are faster from when I first bought the game, a few weeks ago.

I don't use the other circuits that much, because of very slow AI in the real vs fantasy tracks. I've mainly used the Gr.4 Atenza when I got the game. Then, recently, Gr.3&4 Lexus RC F. I only tune camber to -5F/-4R or -5F/-3.5R on my Gr.4 cars and leave everything stock on my Gr.3 cars.

Has anyone any data or tested this theory?

Edit: Seriously, switching between Sport and Arcade, the main difference is, less carnage in Arcade. The AI seem just as fast as the humans I race against. Just wondering if AI adapted to my style of racing.