KY/PD aiming to high wanting to include damage in GT5?

[Tenacious D]

[Hmm... I'll let this first part stand, but my first experience was quite flawed!]

GTR kills GT4 in the racing. The cars are far more realistic to drive. The DFP works great but you may need to tweak the setting to get the FFB right. The AI can race well too :shock:.

After a few hours spent with the demo, you're right about one thing. Though what it kills is my nerves, and my patience!

But seriously, this is first blush and all, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

I don't know if you love being swamped in technical details or what. Some love all the minutia, but it doesn't thrill me that I can control the inflation of tires independently to the tenth of a pound. I do like having access to virtually everything on the car, as you should on a racing sim, but throwing all this on me without a crew chief to give technical advice is a BIG minus. Boo.

Controlling it with the DF Pro is haphazard. The only view that lets me properly see the track is an over the car view, which I have set very low and close so I feel like I'm remotely part of the car. But I don't feel connected to it at all. Steering is way too touchy in the middle, and way too lost in the extremes, even messing with the "speed" settings, so I constantly fish along the track and have trouble keeping out of the grass. In the set up screen the response meter looks perfect. Force feedback is also practically non-existent except at the extremes, no matter what setting I use. Boo.

Other than that, it is a very good game. I does look better than I thought it would. The weather is uncanny, and the evening sky is gorgeous, though the trackside still looks unfinished. Having dozens of competitors - and with actual brains as you indicate - is very nice. Damage seems reasonable - and with a hard to control car there's plenty of that! And the physics is very good.

But so is the physics in Gran Turismo. And in GT, I feel directly connected to the car. It's a dream to put on the track wherever I want. I feel like I'm there. Not like a drunk, unable to drive a straight line. I'm not sure what you mean by "far more realistic." Because you can flip the cars in extreme collisions? Meh.

The thing I really like about Gran Turismo is the fact that I can drive hundreds of cars, including lots of street cars I'd love to own, and feel like I'm driving them. I'm not forced to drive 200+kmh fighting a rebellious beast practically every second, and probably not driving as well as the lamest bot.

I'll spend some more time with the demo, but I shouldn't have to feel like I came away from a fight, just putting the car through practice laps! It's much more likely that I'll wait for the PS3 and whatever driving games come out with it. And if it's Gran Turismo 4.5, I'll be a happy camper.

And hopefully you don't think I'm dissing GTR. It's clearly a superior PC racing sim which a LOT of work and thought went into. But when you present something as a Gran Turismo killer and go on and on about it in many posts, if it's not there, expect some "meh."

[I'll post my second impression below]

 

[Gabkicks]

Damage doesnt just happen from driving like an idiot. engines arent as strong at the end of a long race if you are pushing hard. Taking risks and attempting to pass someone would be risking totalling your car. In LFS s2, i've had some amazing races going sidebyside into corners with people barely touching if touching at all, or passing people and being passed cleanly...

somehow finding a clean path through a pileup of cars that have just crashed... it just adds to the immersiveness. I'd like to see us have to pay for damage repair even in online racing.

 

[niky]

You see damage regularly in motorsport, it's part of the package. Even if YOU don't crash, you will still see crashes in a race that may not involve you, you be caught up in the after effects of it all. Damage is a step forward, not backwards and not on staying on the same step. Take GTR for example, I love that game, it has damage in it, even if I don't see any damage in a race, it still has a huge effect on the race. It changes how you percive manouvers, how hard you want to push ect. It changes a lot of things about the race and the I don't give a crap attitude of driving in GT needs to be looked at.

Damage doesnt just happen from driving like an idiot. engines arent as strong at the end of a long race if you are pushing hard. Taking risks and attempting to pass someone would be risking totalling your car. In LFS s2, i've had some amazing races going sidebyside into corners with people barely touching if touching at all, or passing people and being passed cleanly...

somehow finding a clean path through a pileup of cars that have just crashed... it just adds to the immersiveness. I'd like to see us have to pay for damage repair even in online racing.

This stuff I agree with. 👍

As it is, though, we'll have to wait and see. As previously stated, PD has modelled each and every car as a piece, and not as separate entities. @Live4Speed, it may be easy to model a car in many pieces, to place each component in full 3D inside a modelling program... heck, if it were that simple, PD would just have to download the engineering files from the manufacturers and they'd be finished... but translating that into something a game engine can use can be time consuming.

You'd have to chuck this water bottle, that wiring, turn that radiator (easily a 1000+ polygon object) into a bitmap, turn that engine from a multi-polygon object into an engine colored box... as it is, with my brother intensively into Photomode, we've gotten a good look at the limits of GT4's polygon modelling (and crappy half-tone bitmaps on some cars... ), and it seems any damage system available on the PS2 would have turned ALL the races into a two-car only affairs.

As it is in the GT series... you always get the feeling that most of their time rewriting and revising code has been to make sure that the thing will still run on the PS2. It's not like other games (NFSU comes to mind), wherein the eye-candy is all there in its full glory, but gameplay becomes choppy because of it.

On the PS3, granted, the power to model full-crash detail would be there. Crumpled panels are nothing new, and there are many shortcuts you can take to ensure that you're not taking up too much processor time on the eye-candy portion of crashes, but if they're going to have massive fields, hundreds of available models, and physics modelling of that damage, they're going to have to scrimp on something. Maybe the AI would suffer (who'm I kidding... WHAT AI? ) or maybe the game physics would suffer.

I'd prefer a simple bitmapped engine bay and frame (a la GTA) under all that gorgeous bodywork... so we could have "damage" and still maintain the big racing fields wherein crashes and pile-up avoidance would make a big part of the racing.

 

[Tenacious D]

I was mindful of pushing my car too hard in my adventures today with FIA GTR. Knowing that car damage was a factor, I was reluctant to push my RPMs into the red more than a bar or two and briefly at that.

I'm hoping that wear and tear is fairly realistic in GT5. If they do want wear and damage to be a factor, then they should have longer races, rather than have the stress condensed, so that a 5 lap rage in GT is like an 80 lap race in real life.

In reference to Niky's post above, supposedly every accessory since Gran Turismo 1 is modelled in some way, and is supposedly highly detailed in GT4, and is why there's a process bar with every purchase. I'm not sure that giving the different parts of the car their own durability physics would be that much of a hassle or burden on the system. I do hope that driving performance and competitor AI/personality is given top priority though. I can live without damage.

 

[McLaren]

And power is something the PS3 has in abundance.

Modelling a cars components isn't a mamoth task, do need to run through the number of games that already do it. As for the doors opening only on a few cars, thats true, but it does prove one thing, that the technique used to model the cars was one that allows a model to be made up of smaller models. Were not talking rocket science here, modelling the engines for rach car is only a mater or manpower and time. If PD don't have the time, it'snothing to them to up the manpower, they had over 80 guys working on GT4 so they arn't exactley short of that.

As for PGR having to have under 100 cars, who says that has anything to do with the time it takes to model them all, sure theres an element of that in ANY game, but the biggest factor is licenses. No game has ever tried to getas many cars in it as a GT game has barring Forza, but even that didn't try to get as many as GT4, the reason wasn't that they couldn't, but they didn't want to.

People who see GT as the ultimate racing game are well off the mark, GT4 is not theultimate anything other than having the most cars in it. It's a superb game, but a game like GTR is far better in terms of realism and imo enjoyment.

When you speak of opening doors, you do mean damage right?
Or like someone opening the door? (Same category as popping hoods, misc. stuff)

 

[Omnis]

If they model each part with its specific set of properties, there's no reason for the physics to suffer. It would become realer than ever.

 

[Tenacious D]

[Now for the follow up reaction to GTR]

I hadn't counted on some sort of bug with the game. I hadn't restarted the computer yet, but I did restart the game a bit ago to give it another run to see if somehow I could come to terms with it. And... well, it seems that there was some sort of issue between the game and my Driving Force Pro.

When I restarted, the response was MUCH better. It's still skittish in the center, but I don't have to fish for the center like I had before. The force feedback is still weak in the middle travel of the wheel, but it's better than it was by far. Which of course meant less grass cutting, irritating flag calls and flying from the track. I could make the car go more or less where I wanted it to, so hitting the edge of the bumper strips was much easier. It was a fun game, I'm sure much like the designers intended. Maybe when I try it again tomorrow with a restart, it'll perform even better!

It has annoying quirks, such as having lap times as much as 15 seconds faster in Arcade Mode, even with my car leaving the track! The heck?? And you can't have manual transmission in Arcade. You have some sort of semi-automatic response. Eh, I can live with that. I'll fuss around with it some more today.

The upshot is it's a great racing sim. You can use your Logitech steering controllers, you get to race against a ton of opponents, they aren't mind numbed zombies and you can set their difficulty, you get time of day and weather, you can have damage or turn it off, the physics are good, the graphics are good, you can tweak almost everything - even the radiator?! Talk about deep! Even the music is wonderful. I'll probably pick up a copy this week.

But to say it's more realistic than Gran Turismo... meh.

I still feel connected to the car in GT4 more so than any other racing game I've ever played. GTR is just different. But it's a good kind of different.

 

[Cobra_UK]

Tenacious D please stay on topic. That's nearly one page of 2 big posts of nothing relating to the thread topic. If you want to discuss GTR make a thread relating to it. Thanks.

Some interesting views guys, it's good to see everyone's priorities on GT5.

 

[Cobra_UK]

If they model each part with its specific set of properties, there's no reason for the physics to suffer. It would become more real than ever.

That's exactly how I'd like to see damage done, live4speed mentioned the same thing and I presume it's KY's vision also. The only thing some of us are saying is that such a task will be a lengthy process and the length of time depends on the number of cars that will be available in GT5. I guess some of us want to see GT5 as soon as possible on PS3 and are prepared to wait for the damage in GT6 if that means playing GT5 on PS3 in the next 6 months to a year. Basically I want what GT4 should have been on PS3 with a few more "bells and whistles" now in GT5 and then GT6 can bring on the damage revolution in 3 years or so.

I guess it's my personal view. I'm a car nut in real life and in games. It's my main hobby, in other words I will not buy a PS3 unless something like a GT game's on it.

I think it's very interesting that someone pointed out how if a lot of PS3 power is used on damage to make it indeed as good as KY hopes something else might suffer.

 

[Gabkicks]

i wonder if they will model reliability and toughness of cars before and after mods... big turbo without proper cooling= dead engine?

 

[Cobra_UK]

I don't know mate. Do you really think they'll go as far as to simulate reliability? If they do it would be interesting. It may be one of the first features people turn off. Come on be honest if the next GT has damage and you keep getting hit by the AI or blowing your engine regularly you'll turn them both off. May put them both on in 2 player for that added realism and fun but while in career mode you end up turning them off. Remember the AI in GT is not the brightest of things. 💡

 

[niky]

Hmmm... or how a turbo-2 liter feels without boost? It would be awesome to run rally stages with a blown turbo... no wait, it would be hell... but the possiblity of that happening is very interesting.

 

[Dave A]

To simulate reliability to acceptable level sounds like a daunting task, to that for each part, and create forumlas to change the properties of each part with every change of setting component. It can be done to a better degree than none by routine formulas but it depends how it's integrated into the game as a whole.

Just one point TenaciousD, if you go to the PC game forums, theres a topic on GTR extras and downloads. It's not a huge topic yet but in there theres a link to some setting for the DFP profiler that make it work a hell of alot better than I managed tweaking them on my own. Might suit you better too, might not, but give it a go.

 

[Specialized]

Just wondering , as you guys seem to have a good knowledge about crash physics, damage modelling etc etc, would it take much more to implement such things as oil spills? for instance:

a few cars further behind in the field have a spectacular crash and total their cars and leave oil on the track.

GT4 already has tracks for wet races so the physics of slippery surfaces has already been implemented into the game. Could this be adapted to certain parts of a track where the said crash happened? this could add depth into the game as even if you know a track like the back of your hand you could be caught out

Or if you have a slight off during a race and go through a sand/gravel trap you dont have maximun grip wich would normally be avaible for a few laps?

Just a thought anyway

 

[Cobra_UK]

What you have in mind is more than possible mate.

Also while they're at it they'll, apparently, release an add-on for the PS3 called Real Collision Simulator. It's like a big spike, with a compressed air unit behind it pointing at your head . This means that every time you have a crash the spike will shoot at you at a speed comparable to the in-game collision impact. The unit comes with it's own PSU and the spike comes in different colours. I'm not sure what the retail price will be but I'm sure Sony will release more details soon.

So come on guys post what think of KY's vision for damage in GT5.

Is it possible by 2007? Do you think there will be more delays?

How good do you think the damage will be? Maybe compare it with other games...

 

[Swift]

What you have in mind is more than possible mate.

Also while they're at it they'll, apparently, release an add-on for the PS3 called Real Collision Simulator. It's like a big spike, with a compressed air unit behind it pointing at your head . This means that every time you have a crash the spike will shoot at you at a speed comparable to the in-game collision impact. The unit comes with it's own PSU and the spike comes in different colours. I'm not sure what the retail price will be but I'm sure Sony will release more details soon.

So come on guys post what think of KY's vision for damage in GT5.

Is it possible by 2007? Do you think there will be more delays?

How good do you think the damage will be? Maybe compare it with other games...

He wants to have the cars flip. So that means making the underside of the cars look realistic. Honestly, if they started it in 2004 then I can see it coming out Christmas next year.

 

[Dave A]

GT5 was in development before GT4 was finished, by the time PD finish it they'll have spend 3-4 years on it.

 

[Swift]

GT5 was in development before GT4 was finished, by the time PD finish it they'll have spend 3-4 years on it.

Smart, very smart. Now if we can just figure out when the PS3 is actually coming out and I can find about 500$ extra dollars I'll be fine.

 

[Cobra_UK]

He wants to have the cars flip. So that means making the underside of the cars look realistic. Honestly, if they started it in 2004 then I can see it coming out Christmas next year.

Well KY has already stated 2007 as a hopeful release date but I think Christmas 2006 is out of the question if GT5 is to have damage.

live4speed that's great that they started work on GT5 early. Can I ask you mate if you have a link to where you got this info from. I'd like to know more.

 

[Swift]

Well KY has already stated 2007 as a hopeful release date but I think Christmans 2006 is out of the question if GT5 is to have damage.

live4speed that's great that they started work on GT5 early. Can I ask you mate do you have a link to where you got this info from? I'd like to know more.

Good call. But it makes you think. did the delay GT4 by getting started on GT5 before GT4 was completed? That would make sense since it was delayed umpteen times.

Anyway, as long as AMERICA can get the "prologue" version I'll be fine with it.

 

[Dave A]

I don't have a link because the info is old and somewhere in the GT4 article archives. It was basically an interview with Kaz where he stated much of the work on GT4 has also included preperation for GT5. Actual work on the game engine and programming side of things started last year, around October/November (I can't remember which), thats the point in time when the first PS3 dev kits were handed out to in house developers like PD. Tbh I don't have the patience to wade through the GT4 artiles for a single quote from a year ago, it is there and I'm sure otherusers will have seen it too.

 

[Cobra_UK]

I don't have a link because the info is old and somewhere in the GT4 article archives. It was basically an interview with Kaz where he stated much of the work on GT4 has also included preparation for GT5. Actual work on the game engine and programming side of things started last year, around October/November (I can't remember which), that’s the point in time when the first PS3 dev kits were handed out to in house developers like PD. Tbh I don't have the patience to wade through the GT4 articles for a single quote from a year ago, it is there and I'm sure other users will have seen it too.

Interesting live4speed, I hoped as much, but I never actually read or heard anything about it. Let's hope this actually means they modelled all the cars in GT4, from that point in parts and with much higher polygon counts. Then scaled the models down to something the PS2 could handle. If that's the case then damage may indeed be possible in GT5 by 2007. I'll have a search for it myself as I'm very curious now. You'd best not be telling tales.

 

[Dave A]

I'm sure there will be other memers in here giving you more confidence in it. Have a look, if I rembember anything about the article that might make you find it easier I'll let you know.

 

[Biased turkey]

It's all about finding the proper engine for modeling damage. Who knows, there might be one out there right now that they could simply "plugin" to GT5 and there you have it! Or they could have to start from scratch(the day after the finished GT4). Either way, damage isn't really a big deal to me. Realism is great, but I like a video game to be a videogame sometimes. And being able to mess up, smash your car into the wall and keep on driving is nice when playing a game. Just my opinion.

Codemasters has been doing Dynamic Damage Modeling for years

 

[Patrik]

reading this very intresting thread really makes me look forward to the next game!

I think it will be realistic damage... like you say they'll do dynamic damage and each part will have it's own capacity depending on the material its made of...

 

[Dave A]

It could do, thats not a hard thing to implement. Dynamic damage is where the polys deform differently every time, no two impacts are identical. It's just an engine that allows selected poly models to be deformed and the physics engine decides how that deformation will look.

 

[Patrik]

It could do, thats not a hard thing to implement. Dynamic damage is where the polys deform differently every time, no two impacts are identical. It's just an engine that allows selected poly models to be deformed and the physics engine decides how that deformation will look.

yeah and cause of all the demonstrations of PS3 at the Sony press confirence (E3) this should be very possible!

 

[Tenacious D]

One more thing about GTR, as a comparison point.

It does a fairly good job of handling damage. I might take some cars out in a bit to crash test them to see how far SimBin went in modelling the internal components, but it looks like they did a reasonable job without going crazy.

Kazunori-san tends to go crazy.

For us, that means we get a lot for our money, past AI aside. But two differences between Gran Turismo and many other race games is that they offer established cars and money isn't involved, while we buy our cars, mods and improvements. Many of them aren't cheap, and maintaining a car on top of mod costs won't be cheap either. Will we have to budget for tires in GT5 as well?

I wasn't too keen on the idea of damage in Gran Turismo, and the more I think about it, the more I wonder how tempted many of us will be to just turn it off, assuming we can. I'm not adverse to the idea of damage per se, but I do hope that we don't get killed fixing everything from dings to car destroying wrecks.

Oh, and thanks for the mention, live4speed, I'll hop over right now.

 

[Polo609GT]

All this talk about debating if there should be damage or not, i felt like I needed to share my input. I've been playing gt since number 1. As we have seen, none of the series have had any type of damage. I think, personally they will not include any extreme cases of damage, ex: total loss, or big dents in the hood of the vehicle in case of a roll over. Although it would be nice to see a bit of damage, which I beleive would be the ideal thing for GT and it will be a nice change for us. What i mean is that, we can see small things like broken glass windows,lights,scratches, dirty build up, engine overheating,oil pressure and stuff like that. I dont think its gonna take more then that to get a really good realistic feeling! Just thought id say that =) cheers

 

[Nattefrost]

All this talk about debating if there should be damage or not, i felt like I needed to share my input. I've been playing gt since number 1. As we have seen, none of the series have had any type of damage. I think, personally they will not include any extreme cases of damage, ex: total loss, or big dents in the hood of the vehicle in case of a roll over. Although it would be nice to see a bit of damage, which I beleive would be the ideal thing for GT and it will be a nice change for us. What i mean is that, we can see small things like broken glass windows,lights,scratches, dirty build up, engine overheating,oil pressure and stuff like that. I dont think its gonna take more then that to get a really good realistic feeling! Just thought id say that =) cheers

I don't expect PD to include that kind of damage, expecially not on a powerfull system like PS3. PD do things right, or not at all. If they include damage (and they seemed rather convinced when the stated that damage would be a major theme in GT5), it will be realtime, as realistic as it can get.