League of Mature Rookie Racers -CST

[DeuceOfClub]

I have tried every browser I can think of and I cannot see anything under the new league standings thread other than a blank space?

Do you have images turned off? They are pics.

I can't see anything either...
I believe I have images on. I can see the pictures in the 'race pictures' discussion.

As for SFR, I think in the lower classes (D and C) everyone should be OK without. as for the two higher classes (A and B), without spending time tuning the cars it might be a problem.
I know I had mine off in the first 2 races (2 cars I prepared) cant be sure about the other two...?

 

[freeze9]

Racercar73, no worries man! I'm sure I bumped a few people as well.

Akira, good points about the skid force. I guess I agree with you for whatever will make the cleanest races. I had it on last night just for that reason. I'm good either way.

I might be up for a race on Saturday if someone gets its organized. I'll have to get you guys on my friends list so I can join. My psn is freeze9 if you want to add me. Thanks and looking forward to the upcoming races.

 

[g4geisha]

"Akira, good points about the skid force. I guess I agree with you for whatever will make the cleanest races. I had it on last night just for that reason. I'm good either way"

This is pretty much my reason for wanting it off. And not to knock anyone specifically but with it enabled its too tempting to use it for people who don't really need it and in essence it forces you to use it to stay competitive.

 

[racercar73]

Little confusion on my part guys,
For the first race we go class D,C,B,A.

Are we running the second race D,C,B,A? Or do you guys switch to GT and DTM?

 

[triebs2]

racercar73 - last night the second race went A, B, C, D, just because we already had the A's loaded up and ready to go.

akira - I have photos enabled and see other photos on this site, but neither my laptop, mobile phone, desktop, or work desktop can see the league rankings.

All - I really tried to control my car in all corners. I definitely got bumped far more than I bumped others. Although in one spinout at Grand Valley I'm not sure who was at fault, I think we all lost control braking. Class A in Germany I hit the brakes too hard in the first corner and nearly wiped out everyone behind me. Sorry.

I have no idea what goes on in the real world, but I think it would make sense to publish an agreed speed and approximate slow down point for the first corner. I.e. "For the first corner at xxxxxxx, stop accelerating at the 150 meter marker and slow to 55 MPH before entering the turn. Do not try to cut the corner with an ideal racing line. After the first turn, merge into single file." Something like that in the way of a very abbreviated safety briefing.

 

[scuudz]

I was able to see the rankings without any problems. Not sure what the issue might be.

I don't think it would be prudent to issue general statements like those. Everyone's racing style is different. This can sometimes lead to a single driver or multiple drivers being bumped off the track. That's what happens in real life racing too. Just the act of taking a corner can be executed in so many different ways, especially during a race. Depending on the situation (are you trying to pass or defend your line from the driver behind you), a single driver might take the same corner in different legal ways.

I have looked around different series and some of them agree that there should be no passing whatsoever at the first corner, but that in my opinion takes away from a lot of the excitement. I would rather have a penalty for jumping the line at the start than agreeing to a certain formation going into the first corner.

For example, on Monday, I had a great first couple of races, but then the third race I got bumped by three different people at different points of the track. Yes, it is frustrating, but it is to be expected in a Rookie league. If there are enough drivers getting annoyed at the amount of bumping going on, perhaps akira would want to appoint race stewards to review reported race incidents via the replay, and hand out appropriate penalties in the form of point deductions and/or lower starting grid positions for the next race.

It all depends on how far we want to take the intensity of this league

 

[redmalloc]

It all depends on how far we want to take the intensity of this league

Violators must drive the Fiat 500 for the next 5 races!!!1 💡

 

[triebs2]

Well based on how slow I was driving I thought that the top three finishers should have to start the next race with a 2-car class deduction. Not sure the classes made much of a difference in my lap times.

I definitely didn't get upset at the mostly minor bumping, just hate to see everyone wipe out at the first corner.

Also, speaking as someone who was always in the back of the pack, I don't feel the need to have a reverse-finish order start to the next race. Just stick me in the back right away.

 

[Msand]

I have no idea what goes on in the real world, but I think it would make sense to publish an agreed speed and approximate slow down point for the first corner. I.e. "For the first corner at xxxxxxx, stop accelerating at the 150 meter marker and slow to 55 MPH before entering the turn. Do not try to cut the corner with an ideal racing line. After the first turn, merge into single file." Something like that in the way of a very abbreviated safety briefing

I don't know about anyone else but i use the PS3 controller and i don't know if i could hold the car a set speed.

Anyways, in real world they do not have rules on how to enter the first corner. That is why even in F1 racing it is harry to watch what happens in the first corner. A lot of the time there is a car that is done with the race after getting spun out. Its just part of racing. I have to admit i think i was bumped more than i bump other people last night, but it is a rookie league, and it is going to happen. Just have to remind your self that it is just a game..

 

[agentorunge]

I think regardless of driving styles, what would provide for the best racing experience for all of us would be proper racing etiquette. Which to me means the car in front of you has the right to their driving line. And only attempt a pass when a pass can be made. But late braking and cutting to the inside of somebody is not considered clean. I may have done that a few times when driving in a huge pack on the first few turns because right now I'd expect anyone else to do that to me. It's the "random lobby" approach. But after the field clears up I always allow the cars in front of me their proper line and pass when I can. What people could do to see clean up their racing would be to save the replays and watch your passes to see if you really thought they were clean or not. So I think that's what would help provide a better racing experience and not one of a random lobby. I'm talking to you Msand in the final chicane on lap 3 last night. Hahaha. It wasn't a pass you did but would've been quite dirty if it was. Hahaha.

 

[grumblecat]

As the new guy, I know I mostly drove safe because I was the new guy and because I hadn't driven any one of the 4 cars online and hadn't driven 2 of the cars at all before I raced them because I had 2 classes I was looking for cars for. One of which the silly lambo is going as soon as I can find a good replacement.

But I think if the goal is a rookie league looking to get better you don't put rules on the 1st corner because I think all of us need to learn how to get through it safely while racing. I expect mistakes but from one night I could tell this is a pretty low key group for the most part and you live and learn and try not to make that mistake again.

I know I had a good time even if I was in the back trying to avoid hitting Triebs because he was the only one close to me.

 

[Msand]

I think regardless of driving styles, what would provide for the best racing experience for all of us would be proper racing etiquette. Which to me means the car in front of you has the right to their driving line. And only attempt a pass when a pass can be made. But late braking and cutting to the inside of somebody is not considered clean. I may have done that a few times when driving in a huge pack on the first few turns because right now I'd expect anyone else to do that to me. It's the "random lobby" approach. But after the field clears up I always allow the cars in front of me their proper line and pass when I can. What people could do to see clean up their racing would be to save the replays and watch your passes to see if you really thought they were clean or not. So I think that's what would help provide a better racing experience and not one of a random lobby. I'm talking to you Msand in the final chicane on lap 3 last night. Hahaha. It wasn't a pass you did but would've been quite dirty if it was. Hahaha.

Ya, I thought the car might hold, but it didn't at all, and i ended up in the wall...LOL still i think late breaking is part of passing (as long as you don't bump the other car) One of the driving test in GT5 is about a late break pass.

I guess i never thought it was dirty, so sorry i was not trying to do anything against proper driving etiquette. Do you happen to have a list of "Proper Race Driving Etiquette" I never raced professional before so i would like to brush up so i am not doing any dirty passing.

 

[Slammedc]

Rubbin' is racin', intentionally crashing people is not. I don't think anyone here intentionally spun someone out, but I'm just saying that because I didn't have any questionable incidents. I did however have to slalom through a couple incidents that I drove up on that looked like they could've been questionable.

My vote for various items if we are even voting:
Second Races 27jan11: should count (11 drivers participated in all races)
SRF: Off
Penalties: Light
Damage: No

By the way, I use the DS3 and I very seldom us any driving aids. Every once in awhile I will set TCS anywhere from 1-3 and ABS is always 1 all other aids are off. I use both analog sticks for steering and throttle/brake inputs they are much more precise than the buttons.

*** New pictures are posted from 27Jan11 races go check them out!! ***

 

[racercar73]

With so many cars evenly matched, there is always going to be some rubbin. Everyone i ran with last night was doing their best to stay out of each other. This is supposed to be a rookie league, it is going to happen.

If i know i made the mistake, i let off and let the other car go, then continue racing.

 

[agentorunge]

Ya, I thought the car might hold, but it didn't at all, and i ended up in the wall...LOL still i think late breaking is part of passing (as long as you don't bump the other car) One of the driving test in GT5 is about a late break pass.

I guess i never thought it was dirty, so sorry i was not trying to do anything against proper driving etiquette. Do you happen to have a list of "Proper Race Driving Etiquette" I never raced professional before so i would like to brush up so i am not doing any dirty passing.

It's stickied on top of the first page in the online racing forum. Sorry on my iPhone or I'd link you. Too detailed to really remember but the two I go by are not passing unless you can, and the car in front had the right to their driving line. So those two help me stay clean and teaches me a thing or two about the nuances of racing.


Anybody online right now want to practice? I took a day off work because I'm heading to Vegas later. Hahaha.

 

[g4geisha]

Akira already ok'd 2nd race counting. Zoot hopefully will update soon. As to first corner restrictions it's totally unenforceable. By the end I just planned on a clusterfark and picked a line accordingly. It's aggravating getting rammed from behind and off the course but it comes with the territory. As we all get better hopefully thus will be a nonissue.

 

[racercar73]

Akira already ok'd 2nd race counting. Zoot hopefully will update soon. As to first corner restrictions it's totally unenforceable. By the end I just planned on a clusterfark and picked a line accordingly. It's aggravating getting rammed from behind and off the course but it comes with the territory. As we all get better hopefully thus will be a nonissue.

The goal for the first corner should be survival. You can't win the race in turn 1, but you sure can lose it!

 

[scuudz]

The goal for the first corner should be survival. You can't win the race in turn 1, but you sure can lose it!

👍

In all the rookie races I've been in (about a dozen), I have always used the philosophy of taking the first corner slow. Brake early, turn in, get on gas early (Please note that this is different that my usual racing philosophy as I'm sure zut, slammed, ryne and racecar will testify to) and 90% of the time I have not only survived the first corner, but I have even gained 2-3 places.

People almost always go into the first corner too hot and take themselves out and give the few 'slower' drivers the advantage. The only time this philosophy has not worked for me is when I brake early and get rammed off the track by the driver behind me.

 

[Hank.]

I too bumped and drifted into other racers, it was not intentional!
Once I got bumped which in turn bumped me into someone else, who in turn wiped out. Another time I drifted into someone who was in my mirror blind spot. (I race from cockpit view)

Its going to happen in a rookie league, but we'll get better as we practice. Overall, I'm very pleased with the very sportsman-like conduct of the league members; keep it up!

I wont be around this Sunday SCUUDZ but I may host Sunday afternoon races (unranked). Now that football is over and the weather is still sub-zero some afternoon racing may be fun!

I'm very interested in Rally racing too.

Football isn't over for everyone. Next week will be my Green and Gold Italia for group A!

I love it that it's a rookie league. We can all (and do) make mistakes, and that's ok. Heck, it takes special skill to spin a 4wd car, on a streight, with no one else around. Very special skill, indeed!

Because of it being a rookie league, similar to how I think it's great that we are not using racing tires for everything, personally I think it would be a good idea to not allow SFR. It teaches bad habits. If we turn it off for a single test, or single day, then it won't be a cleaner race. Just like I bet if we put on Comfort Soft tires it would not be clean. Most of us would have to relearn all our break points and how far we can turn and our throttle control and all that. SFR allows one to driver harder "for free" (as in not regulating power), and doesn't give you any indication of when it is in action like the others do. Short term, turning off any of the aids slow you down, but long term I think it will lead to better drivers which should lead to cleaner races.

I also agree with Zonda it might be a good idea for light penalities, to reinforce good driving. My only concern would be that it will also penalize contact, similar to the contat disqualification in the license tests. Since we are all learning to drive "wheel to wheel", contact is going to happen. On the upside, it would be an indication of when the contact has gone over that line, but the penalties do suck. Cutting a corner, you have no one else to blame, but a chain bump or something, sure, it's racing, but still. I am conflicted.

For myself, I have learned a lot in just the few race days we have had. I am getting an idea of how to approach corners differently if people are around me, and am getting better (but not perfect!) at supressing that urge to cut the iniside when I should be lining up for the next corner, and end up not in a place I want to be. I REALLY REALLY try to not hit people, but as all of us are, not perfect, but I think (maybe wishful thinking) I am getting better at anticipating other's breaking, minimizing the plowing in to them factor. My throttle control is still not perfect, but it felt like there was less instances of tire spin heading out of turns, so that's good.

(Ok, this has gotten way rambly. That's what I get for having this reply going for two hours between meetings at work!)

These races, and the test days between have been some of the most fun I have had in the game. I look forward to more of it, and thank all of you for joining in and allowing me to come along. Especially to Akira. Thank you!

 

[Hank.]

Here is a link to what Agentorange is referring to:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=111241

It is a rookie league, however. Some of it should apply regardless. Like rule F, which I must admit I broke last night when I spun while going streight. It was quiet, but it was a not nice word. I do apologize. Other rules, for instance, H, I, and to an extent L, we are learning. As they say, if you're not pushing your car you're not driving fast enough. But how far one can go is different with others around, since you don't have the whole track to use. Learning, and seeing other driver's lines will come with time. The most important: M) "If you are found guilty of any of these rules, the behaviour will be evaluated and penalty assessed by the Race Steward." Akira is the one doing the organizing work. If he's cool with it, I am cool with it.

The goal for the first corner should be survival. You can't win the race in turn 1, but you sure can lose it!

Very wise words! There was a DTM race this past year that had a pileup in the exact same place. It's just how it goes.

👍

In all the rookie races I've been in (about a dozen), I have always used the philosophy of taking the first corner slow. Brake early, turn in, get on gas early (Please note that this is different that my usual racing philosophy as I'm sure zut, slammed, ryne and racecar will testify to) and 90% of the time I have not only survived the first corner, but I have even gained 2-3 places.

People almost always go into the first corner too hot and take themselves out and give the few 'slower' drivers the advantage. The only time this philosophy has not worked for me is when I brake early and get rammed off the track by the driver behind me.

Yep, that's exactly what I had been doing! Normally I tend to break too early, but, you know, start of the race, want to go fast, and all that. I started taking it slower and doing better. I keep forgetting I need to change my line with other cars around though! I know it's stupid sounding but by habit I will keep going to the "normal" line and then of course get stuck. Like I said above, I have learned alot, but need to learn more, and need to remember what I have learned!

 

[grumblecat]

I keep forgetting I need to change my line with other cars around though!

It is funny I have the same issue but I think I am slower because I'm always worried about who is around me.

One thing I did is something I saw on the forum somewhere is to change my map scale to either 2 or 3 that way it is a close up of where I am and I can see on the map quickly if there are cars next to me.

 

[agentorunge]

It is funny I have the same issue but I think I am slower because I'm always worried about who is around me.

One thing I did is something I saw on the forum somewhere is to change my map scale to either 2 or 3 that way it is a close up of where I am and I can see on the map quickly if there are cars next to me.

I too drive with my map scale at 2 since I use the hood cam and don't have a rear view mirror.

 

[akira2501]

I'd like to avoid the league getting too intense or rules oriented, but at the same time I'm happy to see the spirited competition.

I'm undecided on:

SRF
People who are accustomed to having it OFF may do worse with it ON the opposite is also true. Finding a definitive answer on this will be difficult.

Reverse Grid Start
Good or Bad? The upside to this is that it gives the lesser drivers a better chance,and prevents one driver from being effortlessly dominant. The down side is that putting the fastest cars in the rear which can lead to congestion and pileups.

Race Etiquette – I suggest we simply restart the race if we get a massive turn 1 pileup. OR.. We could make the car 1 a pace car @ 50mph until the turn is made.

LAPS - Races with 16 people may need more laps to allow rear-racers to be competitive without being too aggressive.


Practice Formula

I encourage members to host practice runs in their lounge. But I suggest that we no longer “free run”. Instead, practice will consist of actual races with classes, the results of which will not be recorded.

(Race Car and other “out-of-class” races are also encouraged and may be added to the official roster at a later date).

The biggest problem a rookie race faces is driving cleanly with others so free-running with different classes on the track teaches us nothing. If you just want to check your lap time or tune, just run off-line practice mode.

So I suggest we run practice with penalties on, and SRF off for now just to see how it goes.

 

[grumblecat]

If you just want to check your lap time or tune, just run off-line practice mode.

One thing I have read and experienced is that cars behave differently online than off-line in practice mode.

So what i have been doing on getting used to my car and any tuning is going into my own lobby and basically free-run there to use the online physics so I have a better idea of how the car will operate.

But I also think the cars operate differently with crowds than solo as well but I know my D car handles really well in practice off line but once I tried it last night online it was just wacky.

 

[Hank.]

I'd like to avoid the league getting too intense or rules oriented, but at the same time I'm happy to see the spirited competition.

I'm undecided on:

SRF
People who are accustomed to having it OFF may do worse with it ON the opposite is also true. Finding a definitive answer on this will be difficult.

Definatelly a "rule M" here, as I see it. Whatever you decide, I am good with it.

Reverse Grid Start
Good or Bad? The upside to this is that it gives the lesser drivers a better chance,and prevents one driver from being effortlessly dominant. The down side is that putting the fastest cars in the rear which can lead to congestion and pileups.

(like an informercial!) When you initially suggested it I was skeptical. I have seen it be a nightmare in other online races. After one use of the Ronco Reverse Grid Start, however, I knew it was the best thing since sliced bread!

Seriously though, my personally experiences with it here have been much more good then bad. I would like to keep it.

Race Etiquette – I suggest we simply restart the race if we get a massive turn 1 pileup. OR.. We could make the car 1 a pace car @ 50mph until the turn is made.

LAPS - Races with 16 people may need more laps to allow rear-racers to be competitive without being too aggressive.

I don't know. I think we should just learn to deal with the first turn. The OLR has a little section on it. I am not saying we should slavishly stick to that, but it does recommend some tips on how to deal with it.

A few more laps would be nice. 5 maybe, and see how that goes? My only worry would be having it go too long.

Practice Formula

I encourage members to host practice runs in their lounge. But I suggest that we no longer “free run”. Instead, practice will consist of actual races with classes, the results of which will not be recorded.

(Race Car and other “out-of-class” races are also encouraged and may be added to the official roster at a later date).

The biggest problem a rookie race faces is driving cleanly with others so free-running with different classes on the track teaches us nothing. If you just want to check your lap time or tune, just run off-line practice mode.

So I suggest we run practice with penalties on, and SRF off for now just to see how it goes.

Those are good ideas, but maybe a bit of time before hand? I have used a bit of time in those practice days to make minor adjustments to my car. Practice races are great though! I love it!

 

[racercar73]

Akira-
Couple simple things-
1) Add a lap or two so the fast cars in the back have more time. This does not cure turn 1, but does give them more time.

2) Simply put the faster guys up front.

The single biggest thing we can do, everyone needs to approach turn 1 with extreme caution, not aggression. Make sure you check up early and give everyone room.

 

[akira2501]

One thing I have read and experienced is that cars behave differently online than off-line in practice mode.

So what i have been doing on getting used to my car and any tuning is going into my own lobby and basically free-run there to use the online physics so I have a better idea of how the car will operate.

But I also think the cars operate differently with crowds than solo as well but I know my D car handles really well in practice off line but once I tried it last night online it was just wacky.

I haven't noticed that, but if thats the case, then “Free Run” is needed.
Still, I think we need practice on passing cars of similar speed. I know I do!

 

[akira2501]

We'll racecar – Fastest up front is not going to happen (reason below) but I am thinking of “random start”. I'd like to give the less experienced drivers and advantage, not the most experienced. This is a rookie league after all.

Even if we were hard-core, without racing a preliminary time trail (which would take too long), there is no fair way to assign pole position when we switch classes, again through, class switching also makes reverse start a bit unfair and perhaps adds unnecessary chaos to turn 1.

TURN 1 : Hum, that reminds me, I used to work as a SCCA race photographer for “Turn1 Media”... fun days..., but anyways, lets just leave it alone and try to drive safer. As Racecar said “everyone needs to approach turn 1 with extreme caution, not aggression.” I think added a lap or two will make it easier for people in the rear to be careful through the turn without killing their chances of victory.

HANK: I do like you're ideas, and as you mentioned, the problem is always going to be time. More practice, longer races, all good stuff, but many of us cant be on that long. I'll try to find a good balance.

Overall – let's look at rules and whatnot but don't forget to keep this FUN.
If I wanted to simply win all the time I'd play the computer! When it comes to regulations I'm going to error on the side of the rookie drivers every time.

 

[grumblecat]

I haven't noticed that, but if thats the case, then “Free Run” is needed.
Still, I think we need practice on passing cars of similar speed. I know I do!

Actually didn't mean we needed the extra time. I prefer to race was more informational so if anyone noticed That issue they knew they can practice and tune in their own lounge to simulate it.

 

[racercar73]

Overall – let's look at rules and whatnot but don't forget to keep this FUN.
If I wanted to simply win all the time I'd play the computer! When it comes to regulations I'm going to error on the side of the rookie drivers every time.

Totally agree.
I am all for whatever helps everyone drive clean.

I also don't want to worry about a bunch of "rules".

I don't worry about where i finish. That was some of the most fun i have had with the game yet. I would rather battle for 9th with similar racers than blow the cpu away by 20 sec.