LeMONS to LeMANS Race Series -- Season Ended

[chuyler1]

I was just watching some of the replay to see where grenade was making time on me.

1) I was actually spinning tires, most likely the rear, exiting turns. i should have spent more time with the spoiler.

2) My smooth turn in style just sucks. I was cooking the tires at a slower speed than grenade, and as soon as a tire went red, whether I was on the line or not, I was slower exiting.

Turn 2: Hit or miss here. I was cooking my outside front more often than not, but the AYC was setting me up for a good exit so I just went with it. My line pretty much scared the crap out of diablo.

Turn 3: Grenade and I were pretty even but he could occasionally squeeze a little more mid corner speed out of the turn

Turn 4: Grenade was much quicker than me on average.

Turn 5: I was almost always 5 mph quicker.

Turn 6: The elbo was discussed during practice. When I ran it safe, I was going about 78. When I pushed it I could do 82-83. Grenade could do 84 safely. The issue I have with the track is when you take it faster and go off track, the sand doesn't really slow you down. I know it is supposedly hard packed dirt...but I can't imagine cars being able to accelerate at 100 mph out there mowing the grass.

Corkscrew: Grenade could brake much later than me. I messed with my brake settings to keep heat in the rear tires. Apparently it didn't help with my braking distances.

Turn 9: Not sure about this one. Its tough to follow drivers into it. When I push this corner to the limit I am inconsistent, when I take it easy...i feel slow.

Turn 10: About even.

Turn 11: I was faster mid corner but I was braking much earlier and I was spinning the tires on exit every other lap. I never dropped to 1st gear. Not sure if that made a slower exit but it seemed silly to use first for such a short time.

Overall, these minor changes equaled a solid 1 second per lap. I could keep up using the draft but when I was drafting, Grenade was running much slower.

Across the entire track, grenade's turbo helped shorten 2nd and 3rd gears. I know the replay isn't perfect but he seemed to get to 4th much quicker before turn 9 especially despite us having similar corkscrew exit speeds.

Part of my issue is obviously the RFB'ing. Another part is my smooth steering. Perhaps I need to dart into corners a little more to get the car to rotate and use the rear slip angle a little more instead of always relying on my front tires to turn in. Any thoughts on that?

 

[gjbaldwin60]

Damn, sounds like a lot of fun last night. I had the ps3 apart and I believe fixed, but couldn't get it back together in time for the race.

How many did you have out for the race?

 

[chuyler1]

we had 6

 

[grenadeshark]

I was just watching some of the replay to see where grenade was making time on me.

1) I was actually spinning tires, most likely the rear, exiting turns. i should have spent more time with the spoiler.

2) My smooth turn in style just sucks. I was cooking the tires at a slower speed than grenade, and as soon as a tire went red, whether I was on the line or not, I was slower exiting.

Turn 2: Hit or miss here. I was cooking my outside front more often than not, but the AYC was setting me up for a good exit so I just went with it. My line pretty much scared the crap out of diablo.

I had a crazy dive bomb line that was good on the tires and allowed me to gain .1-.3 seconds any lap I made it work.

Turn 3: Grenade and I were pretty even but he could occasionally squeeze a little more mid corner speed out of the turn

I hated that corner at the start of the race, but I really seemed to get the hang of it by lap 20 or so.

Turn 4: Grenade was much quicker than me on average.

Slow in. Fast out.

Turn 5: I was almost always 5 mph quicker.

I am actually surprised by this. I forgot to save the replay so I can't see what was going on. This was one of my favorite corners. I would like to check MPH coming out of the turn as I felt that was one of my best turns.

Turn 6: The elbo was discussed during practice. When I ran it safe, I was going about 78. When I pushed it I could do 82-83. Grenade could do 84 safely. The issue I have with the track is when you take it faster and go off track, the sand doesn't really slow you down. I know it is supposedly hard packed dirt...but I can't imagine cars being able to accelerate at 100 mph out there mowing the grass.

Most likely the spoiler is what was saving me here.

Corkscrew: Grenade could brake much later than me. I messed with my brake settings to keep heat in the rear tires. Apparently it didn't help with my braking distances.

I have found out recently that pumping your brakes drastically lowers braking distances (for me). Any time I felt I was going to not brake enough, I started pumping and blam, I managed to save it.

Turn 9: Not sure bout this one. Its tough to follow drivers into it. When I push this corner to the limit I am inconsistent, when I take it easy...i feel slow.

I found a new line through this turn with our cars that seemed to really get the most out of it. Staying on the inside and braking then apexing at full speed coming out.

Turn 10: About even.

Turn 11: I was faster mid corner but I was braking much earlier and I was spinning the tires on exit every other lap. I never dropped to 1st gear. Not sure if that made a slower exit but it seemed silly to use first for such a short time.

I never really did get this turn down.

Overall, these minor changes equaled a solid 1 second per lap. I could keep up using the draft but when I was drafting, Grenade was running much slower.

Across the entire track, grenade's turbo helped shorten 2nd and 3rd gears. I know the replay isn't perfect but he seemed to get to 4th much quicker before turn 9 especially despite us having similar corkscrew exit speeds.

Part of my issue is obviously the RFB'ing. Another part is my smooth steering. Perhaps I need to dart into corners a little more to get the car to rotate and use the rear slip angle a little more instead of always relying on my front tires to turn in. Any thoughts on that?

What is RFBing? If you post a replay up, maybe ill try and take a look. As far as losing 1 second per lap. I was running a pretty clean race overall. At the end, my confidence was soaring and it was showing in the lap times. I placed two or three consecutive 1:33 laps without fresh tires and no draft.

I wouldn't consider myself all that "unsmooth" either. Not sure where you are specifically talking about when your saying your smooth turn in is killing you. Outside of the elbow, my turn in's are pretty smooth IMO.

 

[chuyler1]

Current standings...

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spr...5udDdNaUxqUjB5dEVWeUJ3Tl81UzNTd1E&output=html

grenadeshark 60
chuyler1 45
diabolicwyvern 33
WiiFreak 30
a_garris 27
sl3ight 26
gjbaldwin60 23

This is really not panning out how I expected for several reasons...

1) With only a few cars on the track, the point spread is not very good, especially when we have people who dropped out. At the end of the series, I may remove the drop outs and rescore to see what might have happened if we had consistent participation.

2) The reward system simply isn't making cars faster, or perhaps the tracks chosen thus far simply don't work with the reward system. Wiifreak for example has an extra 32k into his car compared to grenade. At the very least, he should have been able to keep up.

Perhaps making drivers pay for tires out of their budget would work better, allowing drivers with more credits to buy something that will actually make them faster across the entire track. I didn't like this idea at the beginning because it would have made it very difficult for drivers to follow one another if their brake zones were completely different. Even last night brake distances varied simply by how many laps were on the tires making following other drivers tough.

 

[chuyler1]

What is RFBing? If you post a replay up, maybe ill try and take a look. As far as losing 1 second per lap. I was running a pretty clean race overall. At the end, my confidence was soaring and it was showing in the lap times. I placed two or three consecutive 1:33 laps without fresh tires and no draft.

I wouldn't consider myself all that "unsmooth" either. Not sure where you are specifically talking about when your saying your smooth turn in is killing you. Outside of the elbow, my turn in's are pretty smooth IMO.

Right Foot Braking. I almost never use my left foot except in formula cars.

It's hard to explain the smooth part. The corkscrew for example, you stay way outside and hug the outer rumble strip then cut in real fast. I start edging into the apex much earlier. When I do reach the apex, my car is often pointed in the wrong direction because I didn't quite get the same rotation. I have to wait a little longer before hitting the gas.

My softer line usually means I am still braking as I turn in, possibly too much though. My trail braking technique just wasn't working last night as i was overheating the outside front tire just as I was hitting the apex.

I'd like to learn your style, because even if I put in another 60 laps, without some changes I would never have hit 1:33. I had a few decent 1:34s that popped up while we were yacking away on the mics but I couldn't tell you what I did different.

Could you pick a car, run a few laps at laguna in practice mode and send me the ghost replay? Maybe take an evo from the new car dealer and don't make any changes.

 

[grenadeshark]

Current standings...

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spr...5udDdNaUxqUjB5dEVWeUJ3Tl81UzNTd1E&output=html

grenadeshark 60
chuyler1 45
diabolicwyvern 33
WiiFreak 30
a_garris 27
sl3ight 26
gjbaldwin60 23

This is really not panning out how I expected for several reasons...

1) With only a few cars on the track, the point spread is not very good, especially when we have people who dropped out. At the end of the series, I may remove the drop outs and rescore to see what might have happened if we had consistent participation.

2) The reward system simply isn't making cars faster, or perhaps the tracks chosen thus far simply don't work with the reward system. Wiifreak for example has an extra 32k into his car compared to grenade. At the very least, he should have been able to keep up.

Perhaps making drivers pay for tires out of their budget would work better, allowing drivers with more credits to buy something that will actually make them faster across the entire track. I didn't like this idea at the beginning because it would have made it very difficult for drivers to follow one another if their brake zones were completely different. Even last night brake distances varied simply by how many laps were on the tires making following other drivers tough.

1)I am not trying to be arrogant here, but I don't know if it is 100% in the cars. Diablo is a perfect example. He had the poll lap yet ended up more then a lap down. I wouldn't mind jumping in some of each others car and seeing what kind of laps we can put down. It might just come down to the fact that people are not all that good at racing clean for 60 laps.

2) How much time are people spending in tuning their cars and picking the right mods? I spent a LOT of time making these decisions and at least put down 50+ laps on laguna with that car before our race (not including our practice).

3) Are people making good spending decisions? Sure that stage 3 weight reduction is nice, but it costs a lot for the benefit you are receiving compared to some other mods.

 

[grenadeshark]

Right Foot Braking. I almost never use my left foot except in formula cars.

It's hard to explain the smooth part. The corkscrew for example, you stay way outside and hug the outer rumble strip then cut in real fast. I start edging into the apex much earlier. When I do reach the apex, my car is often pointed in the wrong direction because I didn't quite get the same rotation. I have to wait a little longer before hitting the gas.

My softer line usually means I am still braking as I turn in, possibly too much though. My trail braking technique just wasn't working last night as i was overheating the outside front tire just as I was hitting the apex.

I'd like to learn your style, because even if I put in another 60 laps, without some changes I would never have hit 1:33. I had a few decent 1:34s that popped up while we were yacking away on the mics but I couldn't tell you what I did different.

Could you pick a car, run a few laps at laguna in practice mode and send me the ghost replay? Maybe take an evo from the new car dealer and don't make any changes.

IMO, anything but left foot braking kills you. The reason for this is if you watch my replays, I come off the brake slowly and simultaneously get back on the gas slowly. I just couldn't do this with right foot braking.

The lines I run is because of lots of practice laps. For my particular car, I felt that was the most effective, consistent line. Especially in AWD/4WD cars, we can't run the exact same line as a RWD due to understeer. That's why I tend to slow down more and then cut in. Although, I am hardly ever going red on any of the tires which is why I consider it (smooth).

Why not share your car? I'll share mine soon as I get out of this B-spec race.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

1)I am not trying to be arrogant here, but I don't know if it is 100% in the cars. Diablo is a perfect example. He had the poll lap yet ended up more then a lap down. I wouldn't mind jumping in some of each others car and seeing what kind of laps we can put down. It might just come down to the fact that people are not all that good at racing clean for 60 laps.

To me, the point is to balance bad drivers with good. I know I'm horrible. My car was faster than others last week, and that was only enough for me to keep up for a few laps.

Yes, I did wreck this week and last, but my wrecks come after I'm already out of the race. I wreck because I'm pushing too hard to catch up, or because I'm so far behind that I don't pay atention.

 

[grenadeshark]

To me, the point is to balance bad drivers with good. I know I'm horrible. My car was faster than others last week, and that was only enough for me to keep up for a few laps.

Yes, I did wreck this week and last, but my wrecks come after I'm already out of the race. I wreck because I'm pushing too hard to catch up, or because I'm so far behind that I don't pay atention.

Maybe we just need to up the money rewards. Seems the amount of money there is to spend for the people not placing in the top 3 isn't helping them overcome their driving disadvantage enough.

 

[chuyler1]

I agree that some people aren't making the wisest spending decisions. I have refused to spend money on anything that I won't need at the end. However I sacrificed the win this round. I considered the stage 3 turbo instead of the suspension but I figured the suspension would help with tire wear. I was 1/2 second faster with the turbo but I was more consistent across 20 laps with the suspension because I could get the tires to wear evenly.

I went off track a few times, but only once did I lose more than a few seconds, and that was because I was trying to push my car hard through the elbo turn and since I was already 40 seconds behind i had nothing to lose.

I know WiiFreak and sl3ight are good racers on 450pp nights. With the extra money they had, they should have been in front of you and I at the start of the race. I had intended the reward system to make for relatively easy wins. They appeared to still be struggling with their cars.

 

[gjbaldwin60]

I beleive the old saying is the best modification to make your car go faster is to tighten the nut behind the wheel.

Chuyler, do I get extra budget for next weeks race? seeing as my absence was caused by an act of God, or at least an act of the YLOD .

 

[sl3ight]

I think the main reason the slower cars aren't catching up is because the PP spread was too wide at the beginning of the season. I opted for a slower car that was also more expensive than any of the AWD options, because I felt like driving it. At this last race my car was at 502pp. That is with Stage 3 Turbo, Stage 1 Engine, ECU, Air Filter, Intake Manifold, Sport Cat, and Exhaust Manifold.

I only decided on my final set of mods a few hours before the race, and that was the result of at least 70 laps of testing and tuning in my lobby over about a week.

It's also my feeling that a well tuned AWD car will always be faster than a RWD. Just look at the top classes of cars in real life Time Attack.

 

[chuyler1]

Why not share your car? I'll share mine soon as I get out of this B-spec race.

I'll share it when I get home tonight. It will feel pretty loose until the tires warm up. You may not get the full experience in practice mode because the handling doesn't balance out until you start to lose a little front grip.


I likely won't have time to run yours before I start the 450pp lounge tonight but I may duck out early to give it a few laps. Keep it shared tonight so i get a chance to play with it.

What wheel do you use, the DFGT? If so, did you perform the bungie mod?

 

[sl3ight]

Next race I'll also be sure to have my handbrake off my desk, so I don't accidentally pull that instead of my shifter...can't say I've ever done that before though.

 

[grenadeshark]

I think the main reason the slower cars aren't catching up is because the PP spread was too wide at the beginning of the season. I opted for a slower car that was also more expensive than any of the AWD options, because I felt like driving it. At this last race my car was at 502pp. That is with Stage 3 Turbo, Stage 1 Engine, ECU, Air Filter, Intake Manifold, Sport Cat, and Exhaust Manifold.

I only decided on my final set of mods a few hours before the race, and that was the result of at least 70 laps of testing and tuning in my lobby over about a week.

It's also my feeling that a well tuned AWD car will always be faster than a RWD. Just look at the top classes of cars in real life Time Attack.

Well there are some RWD options that seem to do better. RedReevos was the perfect example. He was the fastest driver by far the weeks he raced and he was using comfort tires which is the worst for RWD. I believe had I picked a s2000, I would be doing as good or better then I am doing now.

 

[grenadeshark]

I'll share it when I get home tonight. It will feel pretty loose until the tires warm up. You may not get the full experience in practice mode because the handling doesn't balance out until you start to lose a little front grip.


I likely won't have time to run yours before I start the 450pp lounge tonight but I may duck out early to give it a few laps. Keep it shared tonight so i get a chance to play with it.

What wheel do you use, the DFGT? If so, did you perform the bungie mod?

DFGT, no mods. I use the H shifter to shift and drive one handed 95% of the time.

Steering Type: Simulation
Power-Assist: Off
FFB Strength: 5

One thing I think helps me out is the fact I have driven a standard transmission in real life for the past 10 years straight. That really helps with your left foots ability to control and feel during Left foot braking. I haven't had any trouble with the brake pedal pressure. I am able to modulate it just fine.

 

[chuyler1]

Chuyler, do I get extra budget for next weeks race? seeing as my absence was caused by an act of God, or at least an act of the YLOD .

Yes. I think we decided on 30k at the beginning of the season. I'll update the spreadsheet.

I think the main reason the slower cars aren't catching up is because the PP spread was too wide at the beginning of the season.

This is definitely a factor, and I thought things would even out after a race or 2. However, if you are just hitting 500pp now, I think it needs adjustment so the winners get basically no rewards. I factored the rewards based on total cost of the car fully modded. I think I should have only factored in PP based mods to put better drivers at a more severe disadvantage.

It's also my feeling that a well tuned AWD car will always be faster than a RWD. Just look at the top classes of cars in real life Time Attack.

This is debateable. In the game, I rarely see people choosing AWD cars for 450pp nights. I think there is a definite advantage on comfort soft tires (which is why I chose an AWD car) but once you get the sports tires on, they should be more or less equal. We also brought up the fact that Redreevos was extremely fast in his RWD 350z on the first two nights.

 

[sl3ight]

I think the AWD cars would catch up to the faster RWD cars later in the season once they have adjustable torque split, suspension, and are on stickier tires. It's hard to compete with the consistency afforded by an extremely neutral car that can put the power down lap after lap.

Regarding 450pp night, I think we don't see many AWD cars because most of them need to be detuned. I ran that '08 STI Hatch before the PSN outage on open night and pretty much destroyed everyones lap times, so I stopped running it. I'm working on a 450pp R32 GT-R right now and it's very fast, even with having the power so limited and needing to add balast.

 

[chuyler1]

DFGT, no mods. I use the H shifter to shift and drive one handed 95% of the time.

Steering Type: Simulation
Power-Assist: Off
FFB Strength: 5

One thing I think helps me out is the fact I have driven a standard transmission in real life for the past 10 years straight. That really helps with your left foots ability to control and feel during Left foot braking. I haven't had any trouble with the brake pedal pressure. I am able to modulate it just fine.

H shifter? Is that an add-on? My DFGT just has a sequential up/down knob. I've got the same wheel settings but I do have a bungie cord around both pedals. I also drive stick IRL. I guess I should really just crack down and start doing LFB'ing all the time. It just feels silly in 450pp cars.

 

[grenadeshark]

H shifter? Is that an add-on? My DFGT just has a sequential up/down knob. I've got the same wheel settings but I do have a bungie cord around both pedals. I also drive stick IRL. I guess I should really just crack down and start doing LFB'ing all the time. It just feels silly in 450pp cars.

I meant sequential*

 

[grenadeshark]

Yes. I think we decided on 30k at the beginning of the season. I'll update the spreadsheet.


This is definitely a factor, and I thought things would even out after a race or 2. However, if you are just hitting 500pp now, I think it needs adjustment so the winners get basically no rewards. I factored the rewards based on total cost of the car fully modded. I think I should have only factored in PP based mods to put better drivers at a more severe disadvantage.

This is debateable. In the game, I rarely see people choosing AWD cars for 450pp nights. I think there is a definite advantage on comfort soft tires (which is why I chose an AWD car) but once you get the sports tires on, they should be more or less equal. We also brought up the fact that Redreevos was extremely fast in his RWD 350z on the first two nights.

I think the PP spread is still wide because of reckless spending by the people who had more money. They bought expensive mods that didn't create much PP, but allowed them more freedom in tuning.

I am willing to bet I could take any car here and get it up to my PP without too much problem given the racers money they had after the races.

In fact, I am going to test this once I find one of the cars 4th-7th are racing. Sl3ight, I am testing my theory with your car

 

[sl3ight]

The only mods I've bought that don't increase PP are the full suspension and limited slip diff. Both of those which I needed to stop the car from handling like total crap

I'll bet you the cars that are fastest now will be fastest all season.

 

[grenadeshark]

The only mods I've bought that don't increase PP are the full suspension and limited slip diff. Both of those which I needed to stop the car from handling like total crap

I'll bet you the cars that are fastest now will be fastest all season.

Im testing your car right now . For 49950, I've got your car lighter and with more HP then mine. That's still with a budget of 21950 left to go.

I didn't go with full suspension or limited sip. I went with height adjustable. We will see how it goes.

Also your car won't need a custom tranny 20k to do the faster races (that's good).

EDIT: With just the money spent above, I was able to pull 1:35.5s within 3-4 laps with basically no tuning. Going to spend the rest of it now.

 

[sl3ight]

You got me

Is your car shared? I'd like to see what I can get out of it. I have no idea how sharing works by the way...lol

 

[grenadeshark]

You got me

Is your car shared? I'd like to see what I can get out of it. I have no idea how sharing works by the way...lol

Yes it is. I've got 1:34.5's out of your car now with driveshaft/clutches/flywheel installed as well.

That leaves you with 12,950 to spend however you want it. Id recommend buying the fully custom tranny as your car has potential, but the stock gearing blows. Add on your winning from this week and you'll have plenty. Granted you dont need it as your stock top speed is like 220.

Your car is harder to drive then the AWDs. But capable of 1:34s with 12,950 to spend on limited/slip or whatever else you had wanted. That would have made it at least competitive last night. Capable of a top 2-4 finish. As we move to better and better tires, your car is going to become better and better.

Example: I think your car is capable of winning daytona next week if you spend your money right and tune it correctly.

P.S. to find my car in share mode. go to profile, then select my name and you will see my shared cars.

 

[sl3ight]

What mods did you do to it?

What's your best time around Laguna Seca in your car. I need to make sure that you're not just faster than me

 

[grenadeshark]

What mods did you do to it?

Rear spoiler
Weight 1
Engine 1
ECU
intake manifold
racing air filter
titanium exhaust
sports exhaust manifold
cat
turbo 3
Drive shaft
twin clutch
semi racing flywheel
height adjustable racing suspension

That's it. Leaves you with 12,950 that you would have had to race with. What I have up there is capable of 1:34s.

 

[grenadeshark]

What mods did you do to it?

What's your best time around Laguna Seca in your car. I need to make sure that you're not just faster than me

Offline: 1:32.958.
Online: 1:33.1 (no draft)

 

[sl3ight]

So the only difference is that you have the S3 Exhaust and I don't, and that I have full adjustable suspension and you have height adjustable. Hmmmm

Edit: and Adjustable LSD