lets get over damage and talk about real GRAN TURISMO

I was going to mention. I did not think the graphics could get better but they did! Hell, even in cam footage this game looks amazing. The light cast through the NOW 3D TREES is really nice. As are the reflections on the cars.
 
Yeah, I agree with this thread.
At first, I was pretty disappointed with there being damage only on race cars etc. but then I started to think about actually playing the game.
Smashing cars into each other at 200mph on 2 Player will keep me entertained for all of 5 minutes at most, whereas an extra track will give me days of extra enjoyment!
Yeah, it'd be nice to have all the cars damagable, but in the bigger picture, it's not all that important! What's much more important is more cars and tracks, dynamic weather systems, day and night cycles and better physics and sound :)
 
PSNkilluminati
just imagine ME beating everyone on this site and we can all watch it on youtube. :)

it would be a great idea if PD picked the best replays and had a 30 min show on (forgot the channel name) showing gt replays
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nah I could beat you ( just kidding I don't know how good you are lol :)]

The one thing I really have always loved about all the gt games is the amount of cars that they have featured. I LOVE cars and this game has 1000 Let me repeat that :drool:1000! :bowdown::bowdown::bowdown::bowdown:. I have collected all of the cars in gt3 and tuned them all to the maximum they can handle. In gt4 I also have all of the cars and I precisely remember that for about a month I had 14 pages of car names and I would cross them out until I had each one.

People made damage a big of a deal for nothing. Pd could propobly add more damage features by dlc later on and that the game is still not finished. All the time I played the other gt games I never Tried to run off the track or hit another car. Damage is not going to be very useful to me.

I would really like it if that youtube feature would let us post the replays of the license tests so we could show each other how it is done instead of making a thread about how to go through them. We could also show each other different setting that we put in our cars.

And another great feature that you guys haven't really talked about is the ability to use your own songs in the game. Finally!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is one of the things I most dream about.
 
Torero82
Well, damage it important for a lot of people. Even more important that day/night cycles or weather.
Click to expand...

I would like you to qualify that "a lot of people" statement...

There is a reason why PC Racers is very NICHE, its not accessible to the average person, its hard to play and frustrating. Many people take the game out and never play it again.

GT has a rather large and loyal following. Not all of them are so hyped up on damage modeling that they are saying "We won't buy it if doesn't have" - Insert Feature Here.

We could live without you frankly because as I said in another thread, GT alone sales consoles. If Sony was smart they would bundle GT with the new Slim and watch it fly off shelves. We can easily replace your disgruntled behind with another player, maybe better than you.

Weather modeling is overrated. I like driving in dry conditions, I moan when it rains at Le Mans. Its nice to see the cream rise to the top and find out who's the "Rain meister", but after one or two races it gets old. You race in the rain in TOCA PRD3, big deal.

This whole notion that modern race cars can't be fast in most conditions is quite funny. Unless its a downright flood, most cars can run "Intermediate" rain tires and once a dry line appears, dive into the pits for hot dry tires.

What I really see this ranting about anti-lock brakes, driver aids, damage modeling and changeable weather is really the Elitist coming out of some people. Just like some people think its elementary to race in 3rd person mode.

You so-called "experts" want to separate yourselves from the layman by putting up so many barriers to other players, the more you can come up with, more elite the pool will be and thus produce better races with less accidents, so you think anyway.

That's fine, but don't impose your desire to turn GT into a PC Racing Simulation on the rest of us that aren't quite as serious as you are.

These are not "must haves" to enjoy the game, they are niceties to draw in a few people that race on PC's and not on consoles or may not even have a PS3 yet.

The game is a major step forward and pushes the boundaries of the PS3 hardware, would you expect anything less from PD??
 
The graphics have been really cleaned up! i for one have seen countless videos on youtube of gamescom and although it does not reflect on how the game looks in our homes i certainly did notice better looking interior shadows and no jaggies at all.
 
Havok_
The graphics have been really cleaned up! i for one have seen countless videos on youtube of gamescom and although it does not reflect on how the game looks in our homes i certainly did notice better looking interior shadows and no jaggies at all.
Click to expand...

Can't say I agree with the OTT reflections and for some reason the cars don't seem to match the track (the light is different on them compared to the rest of the track)
 
dj4monie
don't impose your desire to turn GT into a PC Racing Simulation on the rest of us that aren't quite as serious as you are.
Click to expand...
Well, I have to take issue with this. I don't think trying to bring Gran Turismo into the realism arena is a bad thing. As I said in my post, I was amazed when I went from Live For Speed, rFactor and GTR Evo back into Prologue at how close Prologue was now to these very realistic sims. The GT5 collision videos remind me quite a bit of these sims. The trackside objects flying reminded me of GRID, which had pretty bad racing physics but superb collision dynamics.

And don't worry about Simulation Physics being too rough in GT5. Arcade Physics will probably return, and there are a whole list of aids from traction control on down to make racing even easier. So don't fret, young Padawan. ;)
 
I dont care about visual damage. How's it gonna matter if it doesnt even affect the handling of the car? How bout blown engines? Also, the collision physics need to be overhauled. Sayonara.

Edit: Hmm... looking at the videos a 2nd time, it seems like collision physics has improved 👍
 
Tenacious D
Well, I have to take issue with this. I don't think trying to bring Gran Turismo into the realism arena is a bad thing. As I said in my post, I was amazed when I went from Live For Speed, rFactor and GTR Evo back into Prologue at how close Prologue was now to these very realistic sims. The GT5 collision videos remind me quite a bit of these sims. The trackside objects flying reminded me of GRID, which had pretty bad racing physics but superb collision dynamics.

And don't worry about Simulation Physics being too rough in GT5. Arcade Physics will probably return, and there are a whole list of aids from traction control on down to make racing even easier. So don't fret, young Padawan. ;)
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Ha, I have LFS, GTR2, GT Legends, Race '07, GRiD Demo (waiting for price drop on PC DVD or PS3 whichever comes first) and NFS: Pro Street (okay not a sim).

SimBin Menus are horrible. Its amazing what PD can do with just icons and fonts to make a good looking menu system. The cars look like they suppose to look (Ford Lotus Cortina, Mustang GT 350's, etc) but don't look natural, replays are terrible and I have better than decent card (HD4670) plus all those games don't push this card too hard. GRid runs at 35fps, okay its not 60fps like the PS2, let alone the PS3, but I have everything but shadows on max settings at 1920x1200 (HD).

One of the biggest draws to GT was the fact you could drive a cars that you actually own. Most sims don't have that because licensing would cost a ton and unless they port the game over to a console with a wider audience they won't break even. It just so happens SimBin has the support of the FIA and SRO, so getting permission for certain cars wasn't all that hard or expensive.

Hard to drive games don't concern me, I do fairly well. Juiced was the first game I was forced to use the analog controls on my Dual Shock. I'm still not comfortable using them in GT4, but I'm forced to use them in PRD2/3. PD has always done well with control, that is the ONE thing that other racing games have trouble nailing down. Your only marginally faster with a steering wheel, you should give PD a ton of credit for that. To get the true "sim" feel you might need a wheel, but to be competitive you don't need one, kudos to PD.

In fact that's why I love GT more than other racing games, its the control...

Physics is one thing, but nailing control I think is much harder. With GRID, I agree its physics lean towards arcade-ish but unlike previous Codemaster racers your tendency to lock up wheels is gone in GRID and with DS2 and DS3 pressure sensitive I found that unacceptable. Not enough to drop the game, on the contrary I'm more than 65% done with PRD3 and 70% done with PRD2 (only picked that up to drive Road America)

I haven't even booted up the PC games, no need too.

Okay time to boot up V-Rally 2 on the emu...
 
I was just about to make a thread like this.. :)

People need to stop BITCHING about GT5 not having damage on all cars.. I mean, come on!
GT5 doesn't have damage, but you can enjoy every other aspect of the game! The game has so much content, it's unbelievable. And it's also unbelievable to see so many people bitching.

I mean.. 90 tracks, 1000 cars, Private Rooms online, the BEST physics on a console racing game, definetly the best GRAPHICS in a racing game.. And a wholelot of other stuff like the YouTube compatibility..

How can someone lose hope in Gran Turismo because it doesn't have "damage?"

I hate people.
 
TsukubaTrueno
I was just about to make a thread like this.. :)

People need to stop BITCHING about GT5 not having damage on all cars.. I mean, come on!
GT5 doesn't have damage, but you can enjoy every other aspect of the game! The game has so much content, it's unbelievable. And it's also unbelievable to see so many people bitching.

I mean.. 90 tracks, 1000 cars, Private Rooms online, the BEST physics on a console racing game, definetly the best GRAPHICS in a racing game.. And a wholelot of other stuff like the YouTube compatibility..

How can someone lose hope in Gran Turismo because it doesn't have "damage?"

I hate people.
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90 tracks? proper translations of the GT5 feature list said 20 tracks and 60 variations and even if it meant 60 tracks and 20 to be announced that is still less then 90.

1,000 cars is nice.

Private rooms atlast.

Best physics and graphics is purely opinion.

Also, little tidbit, that E3 trailer was "confirmed" to be gameplay yet the playable game at gamescon looks so much worse (specially the damage)
 
Welcome in the Sociopaths Anonymous.

And that's why it's comforting to know, that Kazunori Yamauchi is pushing his vision of GT, not a fan-driven fantasy. We bitch, moan, criticize, but in the end the game is still jaw-dropingly good.

And to address the mentioned requirement of having mention for the simulation's sake - yeah, right. Most of the crashes when pushing hard occur at high speeds. Considering the fact, that normal cars turn into mechanical pulp when hitting something while going anything above 40kph (~26? mph) (crumple zones FTW!), the only difference between restarting the race when there is damage and you CAN'T drive and when there is no damage, but you just restart it for the realisms' sake is just an eye-candy animation to show you how badly you've just f* up. Not really a "pro" argument.
 
dj4monie
I would like you to qualify that "a lot of people" statement...

There is a reason why PC Racers is very NICHE, its not accessible to the average person, its hard to play and frustrating. Many people take the game out and never play it again.

GT has a rather large and loyal following. Not all of them are so hyped up on damage modeling that they are saying "We won't buy it if doesn't have" - Insert Feature Here.

We could live without you frankly because as I said in another thread, GT alone sales consoles. If Sony was smart they would bundle GT with the new Slim and watch it fly off shelves. We can easily replace your disgruntled behind with another player, maybe better than you.

Weather modeling is overrated. I like driving in dry conditions, I moan when it rains at Le Mans. Its nice to see the cream rise to the top and find out who's the "Rain meister", but after one or two races it gets old. You race in the rain in TOCA PRD3, big deal.

This whole notion that modern race cars can't be fast in most conditions is quite funny. Unless its a downright flood, most cars can run "Intermediate" rain tires and once a dry line appears, dive into the pits for hot dry tires.

What I really see this ranting about anti-lock brakes, driver aids, damage modeling and changeable weather is really the Elitist coming out of some people. Just like some people think its elementary to race in 3rd person mode.

You so-called "experts" want to separate yourselves from the layman by putting up so many barriers to other players, the more you can come up with, more elite the pool will be and thus produce better races with less accidents, so you think anyway.

That's fine, but don't impose your desire to turn GT into a PC Racing Simulation on the rest of us that aren't quite as serious as you are.

These are not "must haves" to enjoy the game, they are niceties to draw in a few people that race on PC's and not on consoles or may not even have a PS3 yet.

The game is a major step forward and pushes the boundaries of the PS3 hardware, would you expect anything less from PD??
Click to expand...

You do realize the game will most likely have Standard/Pro physics modes?
No one is imposing anything on you or anyone else. If Pro physics are too difficult for you, just dial it back to standard. Simple ;)

And I guess I am an "elitist" because I think the "Real Driving Simulator" (PD's words, not mine) should have damage? :rolleyes: The reason a "real" racing sim should have damage is because there should be consequences for actions on the racetrack--that's a pretty straightforward concept isn't it? If you drive like an idiot, your car's physical appearance should reflect that.

It might teach people to actually demonstrate some patience and judgement and become better drivers ;) But you can be sure that if damage isn't your thing, you will be able to turn it on and off, so don't get too upset if the "elitists" have gotten their way on this one. You won't be excluded :dopey:

Here's an interesting concept that people like you seemingly take for granted:
There are actually people controlling the cars you are racing against online, and while you may not take the game seriously, some people do, and you should treat them with respect.
 
Couldn't agree more about the online racing (which is the reason I don't bother using multi now), but even non-visual damage model (just the one affecting the physics) would be fine then. Just think about the amounts of time required to create a well polished system for hundreds of cars. Considering the fact, that some of them will be used purely recreational, it's pretty much pointless and would delay the release hugely - the heavily standardized "GT2-style" damage model would be a blast to implement and a real improvement for online gaming. And we don't want the ugly visual system used in Forza 2, do we?

Also I 100% agree about the ability to chose between Standard and Professional physics being a very good choice, making the game bot fun and rewarding for anyone.

BTW: we're discussing damage, AGAIN ;).

Also: am I the only one irritated by the inability do put in the 1st gear while really slowly strolling backward (say, few kph max) and slam into the accelerator to launch? In Prologue you have to bring your car to full stop first. Also the car physics on the grass/infield etc. are just impossible to bear (cut off gas, weightless steering). Not to mention the "fantastic" reverse, criticized by pretty much everyone.
 
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Hold on I never said I wasn't "good enough" to race against....

I just can't beat Mission 23, I'm not the only one and that's doesn't make be horrible driver either.

I take competition seriously, I don't take the game seriously, big difference.

I try harder than most not to crash into the AI controlled competition, they are likely to drive the same way lap after lap, humans can be over-optimistic under braking. That's where most mistakes happen.

My biggest issue with racing online via PRD3 is that I haven't seen or done enough laps on all the tracks in the game. Sometimes when I'm in a room I struggle because I don't have optimized setups like the other players do and I struggle with car speed, not driving ability.

I also don't have a problem with realism in a game, there should be penalty for over-aggressive driving, cutting corners and using other cars for braking and turning, don't get me wrong. If I touch somebody its unintentional, I am not out to make contact.

I am just in general agreement with the feeling of this thread that realism doesn't overwhelm the "fun" of the game itself. At the end of the day, its about having a good time and being awe struck by the graphics (I know I am, its amazing), using Photo Mode and Uploading your Replays directly to You Tube, how cool is that? I no longer need to use a capture card, I can upload directly.

I can't wait to hear about the track selection, Spa would be a great addition so would Road Atlanta, Watkins Glen, Road America, hell is Mosport in any video game?

If you can setup your own races, then this is just the tip of the iceberg, one make championships, do your own ALMS, NASCAR Road Racing, etc.

This game is going to be insane, I will take off a week from work when it comes out (not that it matters).

gt5-prologue.jpg
 
dj4monie
I also don't have a problem with realism in a game, there should be penalty for over-aggressive driving, cutting corners and using other cars for braking and turning, don't get me wrong. If I touch somebody its unintentional, I am not out to make contact.
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Just not like the one in Prologue, which is ridiculous. I'd say that something similar to the RD3's system would be nice. No more "10s without the acceleration, leading to another 10s without the acceleration" situations.
 
TGM Tiddy
Not true, If i had the chance and a decent PC I would definitely play iracing over any other racing game as im sure many others would.
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iRacing is extremely overrated in my opinion. It's nothing but an upgraded NASCAR 2003 physics engine with all the game's flaws, including bad net code in online races that causes bizarre crashes. Besides, who wants to pay $20 for tracks? That's insane. You only get 3 free cars but you have to pay $15 for each of the only 6 other cars available. In the end you could end up spending $300+ just to get 1/10th the content GT5 gives for $60. Highway robbery.

I don't have the game, but I see no way possible iRacing can even sniff GT5's dust.

I have rFactor, GTR2, and NASCAR 2003 and I always come back to Gran Turismo.

Problem is rFactor, GTR2, and NASCAR 2003, while better then the Gran Turismo series in some ways, don't have the soul nor a fraction of the content Gran Turismo offers.

Once GT5 launches with series firsts private rooms and proper online races it's no comparison anymore.

People crying about damage on just 200 of the 1,000 cars. Forza 3 has 400 cars all with damage. I'll take 1,000 cars with damage on just the 200 racecars to just 400 cars all with damage.

How long is it going to take us to go through the 1,000 cars? That alone could take tens of hours and will shoot the replayability through the roof.

Things in GT5 that are VERY underrated..

1,000 cars - you will never run out of different cars to drive

Youtube Output - Output your fast laps, footage of cheaters, best races, both online and offline to youtube, perhaps in 720p. That means we can easily share our greatest moments with others.

PSEye Head Tracking - How cool is this. Imagine driving down a straight, and instead of pushing a button to look to the left you just look to the left side of the screen and the camera looks to the left. Need a better look of that apex? Done. Want to admire that interior more? Done. This adds so much.

Tracks on the Weather Map - Look at this great list of 10 tracks on the weather map list that have never been in the GT series but most likely will get in at some point if tracks on the weather map continue to be unveiled.

Spa-Francorchamps
Imola
Silverstone
Brand Hatch
Estorial
Hockenheim
Magny-Cours
Jerez
Shanghai
Monza

Changing Weather - While not confirmed PD has said "Changing Weather is on the Roadmap" The last two games have featured a wet track, no doubt this will be in GT too.

For the First time Lamborghini and Ferrari - There is so little information about GT5 out but we already know about 7 different Ferraris being featured in the game. Is it too much to expect 20+ Ferraris in the full game? How many Lamborghinis will get in? Like Ferrari, PD has a whole history of cars to choose from.

For the first time in GT Damage - Not only is it visible, but it hurts your performance as well. Handling is hurt as well as top speed. The basic damage model seen at Gamescon is just a starter and will be improved upon and expanded.

NASCAR - This is going to make the oval track fans very happy after dealing with terrible EA NASCAR games for the last few years. NASCAR owns Grand Am so we could perhaps see Grand AM prototypes and GT cars.

WRC - Now with an official rally Championship, the rally mode should be improved greatly, with perhaps point to point races.

A Formula 1 car - Perhaps even more F1 cars from other constructors may be shown later?

Improved AI and collision physics - AI has improved over GT5P showing more agression. Collision physics are better, much easier to spin out now when making contact with another car. The brick feel of the cars has been reduced.

Gran Turismo Museum - I dont know what this is, but I like the sound of it.

Q4 2009 release - And you get to get your grubby little paws on all this before the end of the year. How good does it get?
 
Gran turismo museum in prologue is just a database of historic photos with text that pop up as a demonstration. For example a picture of an old racing car will pop up and it will say "toyotas first rally entry 1967" (just an inaccurate example)

It's very interesting, not sure how it will differ from the GT5 version though.
 
PSNkilluminati
i was really dissaponited about only a few cars having damage but that really overshadowed how awsome the game really looked. i mean damage will only be cool for about a month till it gets old.
Click to expand...

The funny thing is I see it entirely opposite...

Big car collections, cool backgrounds and snazzy graphics are all great... but I find the novelty wears off pretty fast if there is an integral part of the experience that is constantly missing.

By that I mean gameplay comes first and when racing, lack of damage really takes a toll on gameplay for me. I mean it's a pretty big part of the racing experience so no matter how pretty or big the game is, I find it's all for naught after a while if the core gameplay mechanics are weak or broken.

It seems like a lot of people are rationlizing the lack of damage by saying silly things like "If I wanted to play burnout I would" or "Smashing cars head on at 200mph gets boring fast"... yes those extreme examples have a ring of truth... but the real reason to have damage isn't for the extreme circumstances, but for the everyday ones... the detail that makes the experience. The added feeling of being responsible for your driving beyond simply a temporary slowdown from an obstacle.

I just don't understand overlooking damage in a "simulator"...

It's like saying "Lets talk about how pretty my girlfriend is and how big her rack is, ignore that she is not very smart and can't hold a conversation. Afterall intelligence gets boring after a while."
 
Earth
Problem is rFactor, GTR2, and NASCAR 2003, while better then the Gran Turismo series in some ways, don't have the soul nor a fraction of the content Gran Turismo offers.
Click to expand...
This is why I'm all about Gran Turismo too. My PC sims, same list as yours minus NASCAR 2003, just seem lifeless in comparison. The graphics are dreadful. The feel is precise but... formulaic, if you catch my drift. Clinical would be another term. Their replays make Forza 2's replays look good! The variety of cars is disappointing, and I hate the limited liveries.

Getting kind of sickly, so tomorrow I'm taking off from work, setting up the DF GT, and getting some time in on Prologue. Should make for a great recovery. :sly:

@ Devedander, oh well, you just don't get it if getting into these cars doesn't excite you.
 
Devedander
The funny thing is I see it entirely opposite...

Big car collections, cool backgrounds and snazzy graphics are all great... but I find the novelty wears off pretty fast if there is an integral part of the experience that is constantly missing.

By that I mean gameplay comes first and when racing, lack of damage really takes a toll on gameplay for me. I mean it's a pretty big part of the racing experience so no matter how pretty or big the game is, I find it's all for naught after a while if the core gameplay mechanics are weak or broken.

It seems like a lot of people are rationlizing the lack of damage by saying silly things like "If I wanted to play burnout I would" or "Smashing cars head on at 200mph gets boring fast"... yes those extreme examples have a ring of truth... but the real reason to have damage isn't for the extreme circumstances, but for the everyday ones... the detail that makes the experience. The added feeling of being responsible for your driving beyond simply a temporary slowdown from an obstacle.

I just don't understand overlooking damage in a "simulator"...

It's like saying "Lets talk about how pretty my girlfriend is and how big her rack is, ignore that she is not very smart and can't hold a conversation. Afterall intelligence gets boring after a while."
Click to expand...

You do know that no game is perfect?
 
Tenacious D
@ Devedander, oh well, you just don't get it if getting into these cars doesn't excite you.
Click to expand...

Oh I get it, and they are exciting I am sure... just like dating a hot chic is exciting the first few times.... until her stupidity becomes annoying.

Earth
You do know that no game is perfect?
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Of course! I think you saw my list of games I liked a while ago, none of them are perfect and lots of them aren't even close. But they got the core mechanics and gameplay down.

You will see I don't ask for perfection, I generlaly ask for: What was said would be there and to have it done decently well. And I don't ask for everything, I just think it's reasonable to expect a game that is years in development like GT5 to have at least what is the norm for games of it's type.
 
Devedander
Of course! I think you saw my list of games I liked a while ago, none of them are perfect and lots of them aren't even close. But they got the core mechanics and gameplay down.

You will see I don't ask for perfection, I generlaly ask for: What was said would be there and to have it done decently well. And I don't ask for everything, I just think it's reasonable to expect a game that is years in development like GT5 to have at least what is the norm for games of it's type.
Click to expand...

Forza 3 is a similiar game, how much better is it's damage system and AI? From what I've seen and heard it's damage and AI isn't something to write home about.
 
Earth
Forza 3 is a similiar game, how much better is it's damage system and AI? From what I've seen and heard it's damage and AI isn't something to write home about.
Click to expand...

Well ignore what you have heard, how was your experience with it? What do you think of it?

I think Forza's damage has been decent but I would say a work in progress which seems to be progressing quite well. It's passable as a way to include a major part of racing (which is punishment for poor decisions) and I have had times when it really made a huge difference (nothing like getting the lead by being aggressive, and then having to push your racing ability to the max the last 2 laps to hold that lead becuase your alignment is jacked and you have to fight to control it the whole way!).

Visually it's not too impressive (very generic damage and not terribly accurate) but as far as a core game mechanic goes, it does a decent and maybe even above average job of emersing me in the racing experience.

As for the AI, it was a lot of fun most of the time and with some occasonal and painful quirks. Noteably the AI got rough with you at some very inaprpriate times getting you sideways for no reason annoyingly often. However when it was working (which was a good 90% of the time) it did a good job of making it feel like you were actually racing with other drivers. Not as good a feeling as I got from Toca3 but still a very acceptable implimentation.

So again... how was your experience with the Forza?
 
Earth
PSEye Head Tracking - How cool is this. Imagine driving down a straight, and instead of pushing a button to look to the left you just look to the left side of the screen and the camera looks to the left. Need a better look of that apex? Done. Want to admire that interior more? Done. This adds so much.
Click to expand...

I've thought of a slight major flaw in this... If I turn my head 90 degrees - I'm no longer looking at my TV... I'll be looking at the fireplace... Not conducive for good driving...

If this is done poorly - then we could be in trouble!

Devedander
It's like saying "Lets talk about how pretty my girlfriend is and how big her rack is, ignore that she is not very smart and can't hold a conversation. Afterall intelligence gets boring after a while."
Click to expand...

I'm not following your logic here... now if you'd've said she was crap in bed - then I could've understood!?

C.
 
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