Let's Talk Drivetrains: advice, tips, experience, and your 2cents

[Alfaholic]

Alfaholic, 4WD and AWD are not the same. I didn't make the terms, I just follow them.

http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/difference_4WD_awd.html
http://www.thecarconnection.com/Shoppers/Car_Shopping_Tips/Shopping_Tip_4WD_or_AWD.S212.A7992.html
http://www.palmbeachdailynews.com/s...o_showcase/AS_111606_Maybach_Advertorial.html

.

Here is the first paragraph from the first page from the first link that you supplied. I did not need to bother reading any further since this ten seconds of reading was sufficient to torpedo your argument that 4wd only drives the rear wheels unless the driver flicks a switch or the car is suffering a traction problem.

Many thanks for the ammo!


"What is the difference between Full time Four Wheel Drive (4WD) All Wheel Drive (AWD) and automatic All Wheel Drive (auto AWD)?

Full time four wheel drive, also called permanent 4WD, (not to be confused with: part time 4WD ) is a system that powers all four wheels at all times and can be used full time on all surfaces including pavement. The additional feature of a differential incorporated into the transfer case makes it possible to use 4WD all the time.
2WD is no longer available. Each tire creates about 25% of the available torque when the ground is level with a consistant surface."

For the record, I did read the other links as well, and while they didn't all agree with eachother, none of them agreed with you.

The defence rests.

 

[extreme car]

FR: fun to slide on the corner, good for racing and tyre wear
FF: fun to drive on tight course, bad for racing and tyre wear (esp on endurance racing..)
MR: fun for ... (not sure what to put), good for racing and tyre wear
AWD: fun to kick ass FR, FF, RR, and MR cars on the start, not so good for racing and tyre wear
RR: never tried a RR car layout in GT4..

 

[jbrennen]

Where as an AWD system is always active, in the case of say, a Subaru, all the wheels are seeing torque, just some, more than others.

Here's a cover of a Subaru brochure from 1987:

I found it here.

In case you can't read it, the bottom says: "THE WORLD'S FAVOURITE FOUR-WHEEL DRIVES" (their caps, I'm not shouting )


Here's another photo of the same model of Justy 4WD:

I found that here.

A big Subaru-factory-delivered "4WD" on the side of the car...


Sure looks like the Justy is a "4WD" rather than "AWD"... It must have a two-speed transfer case or be suited for heavy duty offroad use, right?

 

[Tornado]

Sure looks like unnecessary (and incorrect) flaming to me. AWD as a term wasn't used back when the Justy came out. Note how Subaru calls all of their cars AWDs now, despite the similarities in the drivetrain with the Justy.
Also, it is generally decided that "AWD" is for more staid applications than "4WD" is.
From Wikipedia:

Four-wheel drive (4WD or 4x4 for short) is the original term and is often used to describe truck-like vehicles that require the driver to manually switch between a two-wheel drive mode for streets and a four-wheel drive mode for low traction conditions such as ice, mud, or loose gravel. The "all-wheel drive" (AWD) term is a marketing term used to sell primarily on-road 4WD vehicles. However, in Australia, AWD is generally used for passenger vehicles that drive all four wheels all the time (e.g., a Subaru Impreza), whereas 4WD is used for vehicles designed primarily for heavy off-road use, normally with a low range transfer case (e.g. a Toyota Land Cruiser). The terms are thus quite vague in modern usage.

So, regardless, arguing over it is useless.

 

[-Cheezman-]

OK OK I was wrong. However, 4WD and AWD are not the same by means of term, and that was my main point, and it is supported by the three things I did post, and I can post plenty more if you would like.

Also, part time 4WD is the same thing as what I said, may not be the general "4WD" definition, but, it is directly related to 4WD on a whole.

Finally, as far as I have seen, when anything is advertised (in the United States, in my general area, being Massachusetts) as 4WD it means the driver controls it, or it is on a truck, If AWD, it controls it's self, and the driver may have minor control over it, but it remains full time. Seeing as there are more AWD cars in GT4 than AWD trucks, it makes more sense that AWD is the correct term over 4WD.

Look at modern day Subaru's, none are sold as "4WD", all are sold as "Symmetrical AWD". More specific, US market, Model years 1999-2007.

One more thing, it is not a flame, it is a discussion, please, differentiate between the two.

 

[Tornado]

One more thing, it is not a flame, it is a discussion, please, differentiate between the two.

Never said it was.
This, however, either was or as going to lead to one:

Sure looks like the Justy is a "4WD" rather than "AWD"... It must have a two-speed transfer case or be suited for heavy duty offroad use, right?

 

[-Cheezman-]

Never said it was.
This, however, either was or as going to lead to one:

Sure looks like the Justy is a "4WD" rather than "AWD"... It must have a two-speed transfer case or be suited for heavy duty offroad use, right?

I see. My apology.

 

[jbrennen]

Never said it was.
This, however, either was or as going to lead to one...

I don't think you give us enough credit for being civil.

It wasn't flaming, it was sarcasm, and rather mild at that. Furthermore, it wasn't directed at Cheezman but rather to the idea put forth in one of the articles he referenced -- the idea that a defining characteristic of 4WD is a two-speed transfer case.

I think that the most correct answer is that AWD, or all-wheel-drive, is most primarily a marketing term which was adopted in or around 1990 to attempt to sell 4WD cars to a marketplace which was somewhat skeptical of the idea of an idiot-proof reliable full-time-4WD car intended primarily for on-road travel. (Despite the fact that Subaru had been doing it for years, but Subaru was still a fairly small player in 1990, long before the famous Paul Hogan commercials.) The first time I personally remember being aware of "all-wheel-drive" as a marketing phrase was in 1990, with television commercials for the Eagle Talon TSi AWD which used wordplay to indicate that the car was both "all wheel drive" and "all we'll drive"...

Note that the Mitsubishi Galant was even referred to as 4WD and badged as a "4x4" well into the 90s... Look at the bottom picture on this page.

I'm certainly not trying to throw any flames. I find the subject interesting, and I have enjoyed researching it.

 

[-Cheezman-]

It may just be a "he said, she said" kind of topic, but, it is still a topic that many people will debate over, and even if I didn't post it here, it has been posted before in other topics.

 

[SndyDrver]

Oh wow this 4WD-AWD talk enlightend me a little thanks jbrennan & -Cheezman-

And now to make things really interesting ....





















Mid engine-Front Wheel Drive layout

Wikipedia: MF layouts article

 

[Scaff]

Oh wow this 4WD-AWD talk enlightend me a little thanks jbrennan & -Cheezman-

And now to make things really interesting ....

Mid engine-Front Wheel Drive layout

Wikipedia: MF layouts article

To be honest that one strikes me as a great example of the potential dangers of Wiki, the description they give of a FWD car with the engines COG behind the front wheel-line can be applied to almost any FWD car with a longitudinal engine mounted.

The Traction Avant and DS certainly does meet that criteria, but so does almost every FWD car before the Mini, and even a few after the Mini.

The Renault 4 and first generation Renault 5 would also have to qualify by that definition.

For me a cars engine (and I mean the entire engine would need to be mounted behind the front wheel line to qualify as being mid-engined, such as most modern TVRs. These are classed as front/mid engined (which is arguably another term that's a product of marketing departments), but the engine in these is mounted behind the front wheel line.

R4 cutaway

As can be just about seen from the Renault 4 cutaway above, the engine is mounted with the COG behind the front wheel line, but its not exactly low and as such is not going to be a huge help in regard to PMI.


TVR Tuscan cutaway

By contrast the engine in the Tuscan above can be seen to be much further back in the car.

I've worked in the motor industry for most of my adult life an can honestly say that this is the first mention of mid-engined front wheel drive. Even mid/front engined is a relatively recent term and again most likely more a product of marketing departments than anything else. After all the E-type Jaguar had its engine mounted as far back as the Tuscan's and everyone has always been quite happy to call it a front engined rear wheel drive car.

Regards

Scaff

 

[-Cheezman-]

I have always considered MR/MF cars as the engine placement being in the middle of the chassis, or directly behind the driver. Usually right before the rear axle. And RR being the engine behind the rear axle, or right over the rear axle.

 

[shabba]

Here is the first paragraph from the first page from the first link that you supplied. I did not need to bother reading any further since this ten seconds of reading was sufficient to torpedo your argument that 4wd only drives the rear wheels unless the driver flicks a switch or the car is suffering a traction problem.

Many thanks for the ammo!


"What is the difference between Full time Four Wheel Drive (4WD) All Wheel Drive (AWD) and automatic All Wheel Drive (auto AWD)?

Full time four wheel drive, also called permanent 4WD, (not to be confused with: part time 4WD ) is a system that powers all four wheels at all times and can be used full time on all surfaces including pavement. The additional feature of a differential incorporated into the transfer case makes it possible to use 4WD all the time.
2WD is no longer available. Each tire creates about 25% of the available torque when the ground is level with a consistant surface."

For the record, I did read the other links as well, and while they didn't all agree with eachother, none of them agreed with you.

The defence rests.

The main difference between AWD and 4WD is their application. 4WD is the term given to vehicles that can operate off road, while AWD is technically referring to roadgoing vehicles that drive all of their wheels. The car industry has often erringly interchanged the two - as per the Justy example.

There are quite a few differences between an AWD and a 4WD. 4WD, being off-road capable, will almost always have a transfer case which houses the 4WD mechanism. AWD cars will have the mechanism within the main gearbox, and/or one of the differentials (I'll explain later). 4WD cars will almost always have high and low range for off-roading. These are located in the transfer case. AWD cars do not have low range.

Part-time 4WD cars have drive in 2WD on the road, and the driver mechanically/electronically engages 4WD as required.

Constant AWD cars and full-time 4WD cars share one common item - a centre differential. A part-time 4WD does not have a centre differential. When 4WD is engaged in these, the front and rear prop shafts are locked together.

Full-time 4WD will often have a centre differential lock to lock the front and rear prop shafts together for off-road work. AWD cars rarely have this feature, although both can - and often will - have traction enhancements in the centre diff such as a viscous coupling or electronic/hydraulic torque splitting mechanism.

A part-time 4WD cannot be safely driven on tarmac in 4WD. As there is no centre diff to compensate for differences in speeds between front and rear wheels when turning, the transmission will 'wind up' and eventually shatter. I've seen several transfer cases with the sides blown out of them and gears shattered from transmission wind up. A full-time 4WD cannot be safely driven on tarmac with the centre differential locked. The result is pretty much the same. The centre differential compensates for the differences in road speed of wheels when the car is turning corners.

The other main type of system is 'on demand', which can be used in both 4WD and AWD systems. There are many different ways of achieving this, such as viscous couplings, electronic and hydraulic torque splitting devices, etc. The main thing with these is they will run primarily in 2WD until wheelspin is detected, and then feed power to the other wheels. Not all 'on demand' systems reside in the gearbox. The Honda MDX and CRV all use devices in the rear differential to engage. The Mazda Tribute/Ford Escape is the same. On-demand systems in off-road cars (i.e. 4WD) will often have a way of manually locking the system into 4WD, where as on-demand AWD will not.

The same applies for 6 wheel drive, 8 wheel drive, 10 wheel drive and so on... and yes there are 10 wheel drive vehicles out there...

Still doesn't keep them out of trouble, though:

Yep, it's bogged. Right up to the axles...

EDIT:

I'm not sure of the history of the term AWD, but prior to the time of the Audi reference below, all-wheel-drive cars really didn't exist in mainstream motoring. I think AWD is a term that has emerged since then, but even now car-makers still interchange the two terms, which is confusing. Also, a lot of manufacturers build AWD cars and try to flog them off as 4WDs. Half of the SUV's out there are my pathetic example. You try taking some of these off-road and you would have just as much luck in the family sedan.

 

[jbrennen]

The main difference between AWD and 4WD is their application. 4WD is the term given to vehicles that can operate off road, while AWD is technically referring to roadgoing vehicles that drive all of their wheels. The car industry has often erringly interchanged the two - as per the Justy example.

I think it's misleading to say that the car industry "erringly interchanged" the two twenty years or more in the past.

When did the term AWD come into usage in the way that you're referencing (or more to the point, when did the differentiation between 4WD and AWD happen)?

Here's a 1980 article on the Audi Quattro from AUTOCAR magazine. The term "four wheel drive" is used in many places -- the term "all wheel drive" is not seen at all. I'm pretty sure the term "all wheel drive" was not in general use at all back then, and certainly didn't have its present conventional meaning of a four-wheel-drive system intended for full-time on-road use.

Another article on that site, from AUTOCAR in 1985 states:

The advantages of 4wd in on-road performance cars are understood well enough nowadays, with an increasing number of manufacturers offering 4wd derivatives of their conventional products.

However, I do see that my earlier estimate of 1990 for the advent of the term AWD was off -- that site also has an Audi brochure from 1984 which uses the term "all wheel drive" (as well as other magazine articles from 1985 which use the term). Did Audi "invent" the term, or are there any other earlier uses of "AWD" or "all wheel drive" to refer to a road-going full-time 4WD system? Any documented uses prior to the term's appearance in the 1984 Audi brochure?

(Also note that Audi did not discontinue the use of "four wheel drive" when they introduced the "all wheel drive" designation... The two terms were both used to refer to the Quattro lineup for some time after that.)

 

[Alfaholic]

The main difference between AWD and 4WD is......

Thanks for that. I'll stick with my original definition. The thing is, when an engineer comes up with an acronym, it's usually simple and does what it says on the tin. 4wd... drives 4 wheels. AWD - drive to every wheel (see old military vehicles with 3 or more driven axles).

When a marketing department dreams up an acronym, it's explanation can be complicated, contrived and image driven.

Every explanation given for the difference between 4WD and AWD has come with a qualifier: "Often", "Usually", "Mostly" or "Generally". In other words, there is no set standard definition for the difference between the two. This would be predictable as AWD / 4WD systems in use on family vehicles vary hugely in operation, layout, application and components. They are all so different to eachother and there are so many mixed and matched combinations available that any attempt to divide them into two arbitary categories is doomed to vagueness and overuse of words like "often". All these systems have, ultimately, only one thing in common. They all are capable of driving all 4 wheels, and hence can all be called 4 wheel drive.

The only reason there is all this confusion is because some marketing person didn't want to associate their shiny new 4wd sportscar with Land Rovers, and hence called it AWD instead of 4WD. association can be a powerful sales inhibitor. Someone in the market for a sportscar will ignore a vehicle with 4wd if they think 4wd means it's a mud plugger. This is why Lamborghini go to so much pain to point out that their 4wd system is not 4wd but is VT.

In short, I really don't care what the difference between 4WD and AWD is because, technically, there is no difference.

 

[shabba]

Thanks for that. I'll stick with my original definition.

In short, I really don't care what the difference between 4WD and AWD is because, technically, there is no difference.

Then why the big long post earlier? If you really don't care, then why bother? If all you're worried about are the acronyms themselves, then fine. You can call a four wheeled car that drives all of the wheels a 4WD. I could call a ten-wheeled dump truck that drives the back two axles a 4WD (or 6x4). You could call the 10x10 truck I showed in my last post an AWD, but I don't. I call it a Ten wheel drive, or 10x10. Why? Because where I come from the two names actually have a meaning and a function attached to them. AWD is road car, 4WD is offroad.

This is an AWD:

This is a 4WD:

If I go out to buy a 4WD, it will be because I want off-road capability. It's a mud-plugger, plain and simple. It doesn't matter how leather-clad or posh it is - it is still a mud-plugger. You've got the in-betweeners like the Touareg, with proven off-road credentials, and they would probably get a look in, but at the end of the day I would buy the best off-road vehicle possible - my ultimate choice for a 4WD would be a Unimog. Portal axles, 40cm ground clearance, torsional chassis, four wheel diff-locks and balloon tyres all make this a very capable 4WD. If I had the money and the use for it, I'd even take the 6WD Unimog 2450L over the 4WD - simply for off-road capability.

If I wanted an AWD car, though, I'm automatically looking for something like an Audi S6, Liberty/Legacy GT spec B, Evo 9, etc. A road car. A family sedan or coupe for hooting around on the road, and for superior traction on the tarmac (and possibly gravel). I would never take this car 'off road' - as in terrain like the photo of the Pajero/Shogun above. That would be stupid, because although it has drive to all four wheels, my AWD car is NOT designed for off-road.

I laugh at any of the urban noobs who call their Honda CR/V a 4WD. I challenge them to put it next to my cousin's 100 series turbo-diesel Landcruiser in some of our wilderness, and see if they come out still calling it a 4WD... if they come out at all.

I also laugh at anybody who likes to compare their urban tank 4WD with an AWD car, whilst I take an AWD Impreza WRX and wipe their windshield with my tyre smoke.

While you may think you can interchange the two, in principle AWD and 4WD are definitely NOT the same.

And also, my previous post was not just to differentiate AWD from 4WD, but to explain the differing systems used - part time, full time/constant and on-demand systems. I don't know if you read the whole thing - but the majority of the post was spent on those systems. I didn't bother to start on traction aids and differentials and such, but there's even a world of difference there. Name for me an on-road AWD car that would have a pair of Detroit air-locking differentials in it. My mate's 'cruiser has them front and back. Why? For off-road. Air-lockers have virtually no application on road. Big difference.

Even the same components have different applications in different vehicles. LSD's for example. In an AWD car LSD's are used to maximise grip under hard acceleration, wet or slippery road surfaces, and in some cases to elimiate/reduce oversteer and understeer. In 4WD cars the main role of an LSD is as a traction aid off-road, to help prevent loss of traction due to getting crossed up/having low to no traction on one wheel. In the most extreme cases, a 4WD will not have an LSD, but rather a locking diff to eliminate all cross-axle wheelspin. In this case, a 4WD with diff-locks on all diffs will be able to move even if only one wheel has traction.

Traction control/stability control: same thing. Road cars use it to keep the car under control during hard driving or poor road conditions. In 4WD's it can be used for this, but it was originally purposed to keep a 4WD moving in difficult terrain. A 4WD with brake operated traction control works almost in the same manner as if it had diff-locks. When wheelspin is detected, the brake is applied to that wheel. This stops the spin and also forces power to the opposite wheel, which usually has more grip. So in most cases a 4WD with traction control can also keep moving when only one wheel has traction.

Anyway... enough rambling. I think I'll go sit back in the corner...

 

[Alfaholic]

Then why the big long post earlier?

Because I had been corrected for calling using the term 4wd when I supposedly should have used AWD. I requested a proper demonstration of why I was incorrect, but all the explanations have only served to show that there is no set defined difference between the two. It's a perception thing only. I have no interest in a difference that does not exist.

I laugh at any of the urban noobs who call their Honda CR/V a 4WD.

Why? It drives all 4 wheels. How can something that gives drive to 4 wheels be incorrectly called 4 wheel drive?

I also laugh at anybody who likes to compare their urban tank 4WD with an AWD car, whilst I take an AWD Impreza WRX and wipe their windshield with my tyre smoke.

You should check Evo magazine's lap times, on a tarmac racetrack, before laughing too hard at a Cayenne Turbo (which performs rather well off road too).

While you may think you can interchange the two, in principle AWD and 4WD are definitely NOT the same.

On what principle? One means on road vehicle and one means off road vehicle? I've already voiced my opinion on that point.

..a pair of Detroit air-locking differentials in it. My mate's 'cruiser has them front and back. Why? For off-road. Air-lockers have virtually no application on road. Big difference.

So are air locking diffs a prerequisite for 4wd vehicles? If they aren't, then that was just irrelevant trivia, as is much of the rest of your post which is filled with words like "often" and "usually" instead of definite tangible differences and which I will deal with in one short statement.

You say locking diffs have no relevence on tarmac. I wholeheardedly agree. You also make it clear that the possession of locking diffs is not a prerequisite for an offroader, so their discussion is pointless.

LSDs do one thing, regardless of what car it is on and whether that car is negotiating The Corkscrew or a ditch halfway up a Scottish mountain. They aid traction. The same is true of any 4wd system. It's there to improve traction, and this has benefits both on and off road. While the system itself can and is tailored to suit its environment, as is the vehicle to which it is applied, it is a singular principle. The principle is, provide drive to 4 wheels.

I can narrow my whole argument down to one question:

How would you describe the common mechanical trait shared by all vehicles, regardless of their intended application, which have 4 wheels and whose drivetrain is connected to all of them?

If 4 wheel drive (4wd) is not a correct answer, why not? It can't be any of the reasons listed so far as they do not relate to specific technical features in the drivetrain but rather to the general compromise of the vehicle itself.

Equally, if All wheel drive (AWD) is not a correct answer, why not?

If neither of the above are correct answers, then what is the correct answer? What term describes a four wheeled vehicle that drives all four wheels?

Just in case you don't understand the question, I will elaborate:

A Mitsubishi Evo IX and a Land Rover Defender have a common principle. The principle is, they have 4 wheels, and all 4 wheels are attached to driveshafts. Give a name for this principle.

It's 4 wheel drive.

 

[sleepR]

FF
for FF cars i personally think that there not that bad like the honda integra type R (well maybe thats because i drive on myslef) lot of power already tuned enough even when its stock.

FR
really fun to drive there excellent ways machine to drift with especailly S15s

MR
perfectly balanced beast excellent track cars

RR
i dont know much about these cars but im sure there are good points bout them

AWD
What can i say? there jus really great cars to drive , but one thing about them is that the tires dont last very well in endurance races

 

[-Cheezman-]

A Mitsubishi Evo IX and a Land Rover Defender have a common principle. The principle is, they have 4 wheels, and all 4 wheels are attached to driveshafts. Give a name for this principle.

It's 4 wheel drive.

It's also All Wheel Drive then. Because all 4 wheels are being driven.

So which one is it really? The one the factory says it is. The IX is AWD, the Land Rover is 4WD, have fun with that!

That being said, it is irrelevant to the point that they are not the same. Ask the people who design these drivetrains for a living, they will tell you they are not the same. Also, show me a source(s) that says they are the same.

 

[Alfaholic]

It's also All Wheel Drive then. Because all 4 wheels are being driven.

So which one is it really? The one the factory says it is. The IX is AWD, the Land Rover is 4WD, have fun with that!

That being said, it is irrelevant to the point that they are not the same. Ask the people who design these drivetrains for a living, they will tell you they are not the same. Also, show me a source(s) that says they are the same.

Firstly, for clarity, I am not and never have denied that AWD accurately describes vehicle with 4 road wheels, all driven. Indeed, my last post indicated as such a few lines above the quotation you used.

Secondly, I am not saying they are the same. AWD would accurately describe a vehicle with 6 wheels, all driven, where 4wd would not. But I've explained all that already in earlier posts. Please try to keep up when I'm lecturing .

Thirdly, and here is a new point, Land Rover use 4WD and Mitsu use AWD... so what? Lambo call it VT. Audi call it Quattro. VW call it Syncro. Jensen (or Ferguson rather) called it FF (Ferguson Formula). Nissan call it something else in the GT-R (Yes I have forgotten what they call it). They are all different. Many manufacturers call it neither 4WD nor AWD but they all refer to 4 wheel drive systems. On a vehicle with only 4 wheels, guess what? That means they are also all wheel drive systems. Your manufacturer's point also painfully ignores the Subaru shown earlier in the thread with "4WD" plastered all over it.

I am not saying they are the same. I am saying that when a vehicle has 4 driven road wheels, 4wd is an accurate description. This is my argument, and this I can support with a source, so I will, because Wikipedia puts it more eloquently than I can anyway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-wheel_drive

Interestingly, while talking about sources, the Oxford online dictionary has an entry for 4 wheel drive (a vehicle whose engine supplies power to 4 wheels) but has no idea what AWD is. That's probably because AWD was deployed as a marketing term to distance a 4wd road car from offroaders in the buying publics minds. On the evidence of this thread, those marketing people succeeded on a grand scale.

So bottom line - just because AWD is a more popular term on a road car and 4WD is more popular for an off roader doesn't make it wrong for me to categorise cars with 4 driven wheels as 4 wheel drive.

Next round please barman!

 

[jbrennen]

Read these words of Lewis Carroll, who explained it over a hundred years ago:

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'

 

[El Jarretto]

RR is the most fun. I think it takes the most skill to learn, but it gives you unparalleled gratification.

 

[shabba]

I must concede to Alfaholic in the fact that talking about the names - 4WD and AWD, they can be interchanged, and even renamed as per Alfa's last post. What niggles me, though, is when the car-manufacturing world and public alike blithely throw tags on cars that don't suit them.

I may have made myself misunderstood in my previous post - I neglected to put in the words 'by my understanding' (and hence tag it as an opinion, and not irrefutable fact).

I grew up in a world of 4WD's (the off-road sort). Until I was about six or so, I didn't even know there existed cars that weren't 4WD. We lived in national parks, so everything and the tractor were all 4WD, including our own car.

I've seen people try to take 'soft-roaders' into places my dad wouldn't have bothered with a land-rover (or even the tractor!), and then complain when they got hopelessly stuck: "But it's a 4WD". As Alfaholic says, 4WD is traditionally associated with mud-pluggers, and 'in my opinion', rightly so. I think we really need a distinction between the mud-pluggers and the windy-road brigade. If the aforementioned nit in the '4WD' had been accurately told it was not a mud-plugger (and so not to take it there), then both that person and my dad would have been spared the annoyance - the annoyance of him digging holes in our national park, and the annoyance of my dad having to drag out the tractor to tow him back onto the road.

A lot of people just don't know the difference. This example is but one of countless ones I've seen of people not knowing any better. I think AWD and 4WD(or however many wheels it's got) would be good 'separators' of the two, and it seems to me the way that many manufacturers have gone. Subaru don't call their cars 4WD anymore - they are AWD. So now the mug that gets his Subaru bogged in the middle of our outback (trying to tow his caravan across during the 'bottomless mud-pit' wet season) has no excuse. Trust me, it took two Landcruisers to tow him out.

From my observations of people (and my own perceptions) it seems that people now associate AWD with road cars. There seems to be a dividing line drawn, even if there is no concrete definition. There are vehicles that fit in the middle - Touareg for example. It's off-road credentials are documented, yet it is really a more road oriented car. I would be happy to call it either AWD or 4WD. A part-time 4WD Nissan Patrol, though, I wouldn't call an AWD.

My point with the traction aids was to highlight the differences between different types of vehicles. You don't find locking diffs etc in roadgoing AWD/4WD cars. They're road cars, not mud-pluggers. Yet I've met people ignorant enough to think they can drive part time 4WD's on road, in 4WD, as if it were an AWD. No no no. One busted transfer case chain coming up. Would you like bald front tyres with that?

Even though traction aids are often the same from vehicle to vehicle, they do often have different aims. Mud-pluggers tend to be more aimed at off-road prowess (so LSD's and diff locks are included to keep the car moving where open-diffs would fail). The windy-road brigade are more aimed at improving performance and handling on those midnight runs through the windy roads. The application of the device is defined by the vehicle it is fitted to.

We have a Ford ute in Australia that has a diff lock in the back. It is a 4x2, 1 tonne commercial car-style ute (i.e. not a 4WD style body). It is called a Falcon RTV. It has slightly increased ground clearance, but apart from that and the diff lock, it is a standard roadgoing Falcon ute. So why the diff-lock? Well the advertisement for the car had it hooting around a paddock full of mud as it raced a trail-bike. I can gather from the ad that the diff-lock is not for on-road. It is designed to allow tradesmen, farmers and workers who drive it to access areas a normal 4x2 ute wouldn't get. In that case, since it's also a road-oriented vehicle, why not just a decent LSD instead? That way you'd have the benefit on the road as well. It's all in the application of the vehicle, and that's the issue at hand. Can we call a 4WD car an AWD car? Yes. Can we call a car with four wheels and all-wheel-drive a 4WD. Yes.

The question I have, though, is: "Should we?"

 

[Alfaholic]

.... <<some post and...>> Can we call a 4WD car an AWD car? Yes. Can we call a car with four wheels and all-wheel-drive a 4WD. Yes.

The question I have, though, is: "Should we?"

First off, I agreed with most of that post. For the record, when I think of 4wd, I think first of an off roader because when I was growing up and first heard the term, it was always associated with Land Rovers and big bakkies (um, pickup trucks) with "4x4" or "4WD" stickers on the tailgate. Then I remember that 4wd is becoming popular on road cars too. I must say though that when I hear AWD the first thing that springs to my mind is a huge vehicle, usually used by some military force, with 6 or 8 wheels or 10 wheels, all driven. To make me think immediately about Scoobys and Evos, the phrase "Rally Special" or "Rally weapon" usually works best. But that's just me.

Second, I can't answer the question posted above, which I am sure you intended as rhetorical anyway. Still, I would suppose the answer probably depends on where you are. That Wikipedia link I posted suggested that if you want to be properly understood in Australia (or the USA), then call it AWD if talking about a road car or 4WD if talking about an off road car. The most recent copy of Evo that I purchased referred to the Delta Integrale and Subaru Imprezas as four wheel drive cars, so perhaps in the UK the distinction between a road car and an offroader is not made by referring to the drivetrain, but by other means.

One big difference, I think, in our discussion has been what exactly we are referring to. Where you tend to use 4wd or AWD to refer to the vehicle as a whole in design and purpose, I use it to refer only to the fundamental drivetrain layout. I would then group a vehicle's purpose by other means.