London Bridge/Borough Market Terror Incidents
- Thread starter TRGTspecialist
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I have to laugh at this notion that car accidents and bath tub slips are more dangerous than terrorism. Statistically that's as maybe, but nearly all car accidents are that; accidents, and I've never seen a bath tub, slippery floor, faulty electrical socket or cat on the stairs with actual intent to do harm and kill.
Well, maybe exclude the cat from the selection but you know what I'm saying. Violent crime in the UK, including terrorism is something to be fearful of.
Call me paranoid but when I was in London last year I made sure I was somehow armed (bike lock, rolled up news paper, etc) wherever I went and when the guy on the train opposite me busts out a Quran on his e-reader you bet I'm moving to the next carriage. Jason Bourne couldn't have been more alert.
Well, maybe exclude the cat from the selection but you know what I'm saying. Violent crime in the UK, including terrorism is something to be fearful of.
Call me paranoid but when I was in London last year I made sure I was somehow armed (bike lock, rolled up news paper, etc) wherever I went and when the guy on the train opposite me busts out a Quran on his e-reader you bet I'm moving to the next carriage. Jason Bourne couldn't have been more alert.
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
Nobody's debating that, the subject was "how likely am I to be affected by Event X". The effects of fatal accidents or murderous terrorism are exactly the same, they happen to people who weren't expecting them. In terms of "how likely am I to get murdered by a terrorist" the answer remains: far less likely than getting hit by a bus or electrocuting yourself doing DIY.
Wow. Keep out of London on St. Patrick's day, you'll probably **** yourself when you hear the accents.
- 28,470
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- Johnnypenso
I'm always hyper aware of my surroundings. My brother was randomly attacked at a bus stop when he was 13 and ended up getting stabbed in the foot. His story of how it happened somehow struck a cord with me at the time and I developed some lifelong habits as a result. It's come in real handy on many occasions.
I agree the comparison is a bit ridiculous. If I slip and fall in the bathtub, chances are the only people who are going to see me is a friend or relative and the EMS people. If I get mowed down on a bridge or blown up outside a concert it directly and indirectly effects thousands or even tens of thousands of people. I've never been through the kind of fear and panic they must have experienced outside this Manchester bombing but I'm guessing it's not something you'll soon forget and it's the kind of panic and fear that effect everyone around you, after the fact, as well.
One expects accidents will happen, it's a part of life. No one expects to be blown up at a pop concert or deliberately run over while out sightseeing.
Dotini
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Candlelight vigils, pledges of unity, piles of flowers and teddy bears can only go so far in providing public safety.
Many times now terror suspects on reports and watch lists are acting out their violent inclinations, with police unable to do anything to prevent it.
More police, more aggressive police, preventive detention, an armed and martial arts trained citizenry are options to be considered.
Many times now terror suspects on reports and watch lists are acting out their violent inclinations, with police unable to do anything to prevent it.
More police, more aggressive police, preventive detention, an armed and martial arts trained citizenry are options to be considered.
DLR_Mysterion
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UKMikey
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This is probably why it's better to back up online assertions with sources rather than just paraphrasing one's source.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...l-major-cities-new-york-bombing-a7322846.html
He was talking about big or major cities and says capitals have to be prepared. It's the preparation which is part and parcel of living in one of these metropolises not the attacks themselves.
http://the-orator.co.uk/2017/03/sadiq-khan-part-and-parcel-remarks-are-fake-news/
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Scaff
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Then you will have no problem quoting it, fully and in context.
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- Johnnypenso
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Considering I lived in London for 21 years I've experienced more that a few Paddy's days in the Big Smoke seeing as my father and most of my family are Irish and like a good jolly in the city.
Unless you're talking about all the other accents that populate the city?
Scaff
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No he said being prepared for attacks are part and parcel of living in a big city.
“part and parcel of living in a great, global city is you’ve got to be prepared for these things, you’ve got to be vigilant, you’ve got to support the police”
He did not say that terror attacks were, he said being prepared was, supporting the police was and being vigilant was.
For someone who has recently had a bit of a crusade about click-bait headlines, you seem to have walked right into one.
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- 87,105
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- GTP_Famine
Nah.
Your chance of being killed by another person in any act of violence is as low as it has ever been in the entire history of the planet.
Your risk of being involved in violence in the UK is around 1.3%.
Your risk of being actually murdered is around 0.006%, although that's worldwide. In the UK it's nearer 0.001%.
Your risk of being killed in a terrorist attack in the UK this year is 0.00005%. On average since 2000, it's 0.00000009%.
In the 15 years to 2000, it was ten times that. In the 15 years before that it was double that.
Terrorists don't kill us. They simply try to make us fear being killed by them. They are not to be actually feared.
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I get what you're saying and I understand the statistics you've presented. That's all sound.
What I'm getting at is that it's the sheer suprise of these attacks that warrant the fear.
If I'm driving I know there's a chance I could be involved in an accident, it's a calculated risk I've chosen to take, same with having a bath, crossing the road, eating something I could choke on, etc. These things we know, however small a chance of them happening, are risks that we have accepted consciously or not, otherwise we'd be too scared to eat things that people commonly choke on, like condoms.
The issue of violence can be there with or without the jihadi aspect. Extreme violence should always be feared as a natural response in defence. It doesn't mean cowering behind the curtains but should be used to to heighten awareness and have personal precautions in certain situations.
Dotini
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- ECGadget
- Eh???
So normally I do not go as far to directly question somebody for a fear or something. But what the heck?
Being a Muslim, that is insulting.
Can I understand the need for being armed in some which way? Yes, of course I can. Something to fend off an attack, from ANYBODY. I am beyond alert of my surroundings at all times, not because I am scared or paranoid, but I am prepared.
Next, say you met my father on a tube. His attire of choice most of the days (unless doing sports or working) is the islamic robe. He has a beard some five inches long. He wears a hat on his head.
He is also the same man who is a J.P.
He is also the same man who spent some years on the force, protecting and serving the people of some of the roughest areas of London.
Lastly, in the event of a terrorist attack on a tube, he is the SAME man - the one who you may judge because of what he wears or because he may read a Qur'an on a e-reader to pass his time - that you would want on your carriage because he is trained to react in those situations as a police officer and is a qualified First Aider.
So to say I am insulted is an understatement. And it takes a lot to insult me.
Maybe I should switch buses everytime I see a skinhead in case they are national front. Maybe I should avoid people who are heavily tattooed because they may be in a gang and could stick me with a dirty needle out of spite. Maybe I should judge an irishman who is avoiding contact with everybody on a tube because he may be IRA. Oh wait, they're not Muslim so I assume they don't count.
So you know, next time you're on the tube and you see a man who is reading a Qur'an, do yourself a favour and don't prejudge him. Because that man could very well save your life in case of the attack you fear. And walking away from him to another carriage could turn out to be a fatal mistake in that situation.
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- 28,470
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- Johnnypenso
The implication of his remarks is black and white. Why would anyone have to be prepared, be vigilant and support the police a big city if it wasn't a part of living in a global city? It's inevitable, therefore be prepared. It can't be any more obvious than that. I don't walk out my front door prepared for a tornado or a flood. The implication is clear. It's going to happen, be prepared.
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- mustafur
Death is death, at the end of the day if you die from a slip or a gunshot once your dead your dead so no it doesn't really matter especially when noted the odds are far lower.
I would class getting killed by a terrorist attack something outside your control, like a car incident that wasn't your fault it's not really something you can avoid if you end up a victim.
The more people go ape over this insanely low statistic the more likely the government is going to take your rights in the name of security that really won't protect you any more then it has in the past.
Unfortunetly for us it is also our freedom that creates the fear with our media given free reign to scare us silly.
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For context:
I nursing a hangover travelling for the east into central London. Fairly busy tube by the time we get to Whitehall (highly ethnic area). Dude sits opposite me looking like the typical Islamic militant portrayed in film/ TV. He places his raggedy old backpack on his lap and pulls a digital Quran from his jacket and starts muttering verses under his breath.
There was a fairly certain chance this guy was a normal joe. I wasn't taking any chances in my paranoid, semi-comatose state. It was openly intimidating knowing the current climate and I wasn't the only person who got up and moved carriage, but I was the first.
Think of it what you like, if it had been a skinhead with a copy of Mein Kampf or a crack head reading a copy of Private Eye I would have done the same thing. The most minuscule potential threat, however indirect, is still a threat at the minimum.
Edit:
@ECGadget, just saw your post. It's not that he was a Muslim, per se, but that he seemed suspicious to me, his general vibe was what caused me concern. Like I've said above, anyone that I think looks a bit 'off' will cause me to evaluate my current actions and increase my paranoia.
Quite frankly, I'm not going to backtrack and say what I did was wrong, you can say it is but that makes no odds to me. What would have been wrong would have been for me to have acted directly upon my suspicions and tackled the man to the ground screaming "terrorist!" in a desperate attempt to render some control over a situation that I could have deemed to be life threatening. As it was I was in no state to be wrestling strangers so I simply removed myself from the equation having zero impact on the man.
Who is anyone to judge the paranoia of others when a crippling wave of anxiety forces one to act due to the doings of another, directly or indirectly, in concern for their safety?
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- GTP_Famine
More people died in September 2001 in the USA from gunshot wounds. Even more from car accidents. The chance of someone dying from terrorism in the USA in this entire millennium is 0.0000006%, or one in 1.6 million. Basically 200 people a year, including 9/11.
In the last decade it's nearer to 20 people a year, or one in 16 million. That's marginally less likely than winning the National Lottery.
Essentially, people don't win the National Lottery, but it preys on the hopes that they do. Sure, some people do, but only on the news. It'll probably never happen to you, even if you lived for a million years.
Now swap that out for 'get killed by terrorists' and 'fears'.
... and most of the risk is the behaviour of other people.
Whatever works for you. I prefer to simply not be scared that someone who is unlikely to harm me if I lived for 7 million years may harm me.
As our terrorists are usually British, I already compete against them for money, jobs, homes and women (just don't tell my wife).
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UKMikey
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No, it doesn't.
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- Johnnypenso
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The reason this discussion came up in here and in the Manchester thread was because of people who said, or were asking whether we should be fearful of being a victim of terrorism. Fear of something is, logically, governed by the chances of it happening to you. The statistics of these events underpin this whole debate.
The severity of terrorism as a crime, the intent behind it, or how police/government respond to it are perfectly valid discussions, but they're separate to this one.
That's slightly different though, here you're talking about the fear of terrorism given it is already happening to you, which is different to the fear of it happening to you to begin with.
If I were to be in a plane crash, I'd probably be very afraid at the time. But that doesn't mean I'm afraid of a crash happening before I get on the plane.
Accidents happen, but I definitely don't expect to be killed in an accident. It's not super unlikely, but still pretty unlikely. That's the whole point; these events which can kill you are unlikely - so whilst we take precautions where we can, generally we don't let this very small risk interfere with our personal lives. Yet when it comes to terrorism, some people treat that bolded part (and I refer *only* to that bolded part) differently.
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To be honest I have no problem with people being afraid of being killed by a terror attack. People are free to be afraid of whatever they want. But if you're afraid of being killed by terror, then logically you must be aboslutely terrified of being killed in other much more likely ways. It would be hypocritcal not to be. But that's exactly what happens.
It happens so much that people in here and in the Manchester thread, who have said they're worried about being caught up in terrorism, instead of being reassured have literally been told 'yes, you should be afraid'. And yet it's been implied that the people talking about statistics are the ones who lack compassion. 👎
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I know the statistics of flying and up until a few years ago I was fine on a plane. These days I hate flying because of one bad experience, despite knowing full well how safe air travel is compared to the bike I ride daily. It's not a logical thing, otherwise I'd have a handle on it.
Seeing as my sister was not far from the London attack a few days ago (few streets away) when it happened I'd say that's a relatively close, if indirect, experience of Islamic terrorism.
It's not like I haven't been suspected as a terrorist myself before either and had security forces on my arse (in China), but that's another story all together.
Seeing as my sister was not far from the London attack a few days ago (few streets away) when it happened I'd say that's a relatively close, if indirect, experience of Islamic terrorism.
It's not like I haven't been suspected as a terrorist myself before either and had security forces on my arse (in China), but that's another story all together.
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