Lots of Games have it Now. Should GT 5 have a Rewind Option?

[Bogie 19th]

Some want it, some don't. People are very unlikely to change another person's opinion.

 

[Zathra5_]

You gotta have some basis to say GT's potential as a learning tool is "untapped" since GT's already done it. That's what this whole thing is about.

And rewind is NOT consistent with what we know about motor racing, because it doesn't exist in real life. Practicing laps several times IS consistant with what we know about racing instruction because that's exactly what the pros do to learn a track.

Learn how to read. I wrote motor learning. Motor learning relies on practice and the quality of feedback. Your quality of feedback is going to diminish very quickly if you can't remember the exact circumstances of how you did the corner the last time. Rewind allows you to circumvent that by allowing you to practice a corner several times in a row. It improves the feedback you get because you can isolate changes that you make to that corner. Therefore if your time is 0.1 seconds quicker you know that you did the corner better. If your lap time or sector time was 0.1 seconds quicker you would have very little idea if you were better at that corner or one of the other corners. But I have said all that before.

1. You did say rewind could make GT a better teaching tool. There's no basis for that anywhere.

I never said that it would but that there was potential for it to be helpful. I have given reasons that you are welcome to go back and read. You have given not given a single good reason as to why it would not be helpful.

2. His progress is consistent with drivers who have as many real world miles as he has GT miles. 3. Then don't go around saying rewind would make GT a better instruction tool without knowing if it would be any help or if it's just filler material. 4. The question is, has ANYBODY benefited from rewind?

2. So what? How does that have anything to do with rewind?
3. I'm saying that it could. If it never makes it in how will we know?
4. Has rewind ever been in a serious sim? Has anyone ever made a systematic attempt to use it to improve their skills?

You are expecting there to be strong evidence that it is helpful before anyone has ever given a serious go at using it as a training tool. Do I need to tell you how poor of an argument that is? As I have said, using rewind is consistent with what we know about motor learning. There is potential there for it to be a useful tool. How hard is that to understand?

 

[SUPER NUMBBER]

I hope Kazunori sees this poll; I really do.

 

[Lucas]

If Kazunori ever enters this forum, this poll is not exactly on my priorities list of "things I want KY to see in the GT5 forum".

 

[Seismica]

I understand what you mean, but isn't retiring from a race and doing it again to win "restart it"? At least that's what I thought.

Well, if you quit and restart the race, you lose the prize money you would have got from completing the race. If you correct all your mistakes with rewind and theres no prize money penalty, i can see the game becoming too easy for some. A compromise would be to have rewind available only on beginner races, but the later more difficult races would probably not allow it.

I think most people would accept that, as the argument for being a learning tool is valid, but its not a learning tool if you use it for every race. Most people wouldn't, but the option for the later harder races should not be there.

I understand that rewind is unrealistic, but so is to enter a race without having to pay to enter, or having a racing line appear magically, and so on. You always have the option to ignore rewind. Anyone can do whatever they want with their games, it won't affect you.

You raise a valid point about the racing line. I use it in license tests if i'm not comfortable with the car or track. I never thought to use it in races simply because i don't need it. Its more useful as a learning tool than rewind, because it teaches you how to keep to a racing line, and the braking zones etc. But after you learn the racing line it gives you no advantage. But even if good consistent drivers make a mistake, they can take advantage of rewind.

I love the idea of entry fees though, that would create extra challenge later in the game I doubt PD would implement it though.

 

[FLASH48]

I thought a demo would keep certain people busy, until the real thing came out. But i guess not!!

 

[Devedander]

That's a tangent to be explored another day. The question is, would rewind make GT a better instruction tool?

Well, considering it tackles a learning potential in a way no other tool currently does, I would think it could be very educational to some people.

If you want to prove rewind makes for a better racing instruction tool, you'd have to prove that a person can make the leap to pro racing while using rewind. GT has already done that without it, so I don't see where is this "untapped potential" that rewind would fill.

You keep ignoring where I say that 1: it's not necessarily a valuable tool for everyone all the time and 2: its A tool, not the only tool.

Do baseball players use a T up until the day they go pro? No. But a T is a very useful tool in the overall process of becomming better at baseball.

So your argument here is flawed, I do not have to prove that rewind could be used to make the jump to GT academy to prove it could be a learning tool.

I am not saying Rewind, by itself, in a vacum, could take a bad driver to GT academy level, I am saying that it could be one of man ytools which at some points in ones skill curve help some bad drivers go up a notch or two until they outgrow the need for rewind and then they can progress the rest of their way there.

You are making the mistaken assumption that to be a learning tool it must apply to the upper eschelons of learning. The untapped potential with rewind is not the top end of the spectrum, but the bottom. That is an educational tool all the same and who knows how many people might accel once over that first hump. Even if they don't, it's still a learning tool if it helps them get better even if it is at the lower end of the skill curve.

Arguments against rewind seem to all be against claims that rewind by itself will be some kind of hero and fix everything. I don't think anyone is claiming that.

Will rewind help IsmokeGT get better? Probably not. Will it help me get better? Probably not. Will it help my girfriend who gets frustrated with GT so much she won't even try anymore because she can't complete a lap without spinning out get better? It very well might...

 

[McLaren]

Blah, blah, blah, I r t3h best.

Like I said, sticking to my word, I'm just sitting here laughing. The fact that you actually broke apart my paragraph sentence by sentence and then made that long of a post is even more hilarious.

But, as I also said, I have no desire to keep doing this. I have too many personal obligations being dumped on me right now, so you go right ahead and believe this is a win or lose argument while I start going back to work on a thing called a life.

Let me know when you've managed to get around to having one of those. I'll send you a plaque in the mail that says, "You're still special".

 

[deadlyz33]

casual.

 

[Pitracer100]

If replay was included in GT5. I would simply turn the option off.👍

 

[sumbrownkid]

I want fast-forward as a feature as well...

 

[Devedander]

If replay was included in GT5. I would simply turn the option off.👍

Exactly!

I want fast-forward as a feature as well...

So kind of like Bspec?

 

[Raybrig100]

Not bothered either way tbh, but if its makes its way into the game then doubt id use it!

 

[Smoke&Slide]

I'm not saying people here are bad drivers, so apply skill to a technical circuit therefor you won't crash & won't be a need for rewind.Yes i do know where i've lost valuable milliseconds before on a track.By nature, racing is unpredictable & with rewind it's trying to make your grid position or lap time the way you want it, that isn't how it works.

 

[SrRd RacinG]

Having rewind will make people perfectionists, and perfectionists will never reach perfection. Perfection is what most strive to be, but no one will become it (in regard to anything). Apply this to GT: Whether it's trying to replicate a perfect angle, or trying to reduce errors, as Smoke said, racing will throw you a curveball. It's inherently unpredictable.

Those which rise to the challenge, rise to it under imperfect and unforgiving conditions. Rewind is only a bandage for a wound. It's a fantasy world.

 

[Grant U. Rismo]

I don't want to see this thread anymore!
It's obvious the majority doesn't like the idea.

Point final

I think the majority are falling into the whole "GT doesn't have it so it must not be a good feature" category, rather than thinking about it themselves logically and coming to their own conclusion. I say this because these people are automatically discounting any other opinion without thinking about it.

I agree that there are good reasons NOT to have rewind, such as the fact that it could be abused and not used as a learning tool. But there are people here saying that it isn't a learning tool and these people are flat out incorrect.

I've driven driving simulators used to train police and emergency workers, and it had rewind.

If anything these were the "real driving simulators" as it had a 3 screen setup with a real dashboard and wheel setup with powerful hydraulic based force feedback, as well as using a real gas and brake pedal setup with their own hydraulic force feedback mechanisms.

What would occur is that you would be put into a scenario and because of your lack of judgment or poor driving skills you would fail it. When you did, the instructor rewound the scenario and made you do it again without telling you the solution. This sort of learning experience was, I thought, the best sort of tool you could apply if you wanted someone to learn something.

I posted this thought on rewind on another site (where the topic was implementing rewind in a sim racer like Forza) I'll post it here:

As a sim racing fan, I was one of those who didn't like the idea at first but I did see the potential benefit of it. I thought (and I know I wasn't alone on this) that at the very least it should have limitations placed on it or penalizations based on the amount of use. Neither occurred. In the demo you can use it an unlimited amount of times at any difficulty with no penalty. So at first I was disappointed with that decision.

As I said before, I did see one benefit in rewind.

I've driven a couple of driving simulators and both allow the instructor to rewind, fast forward, and set the sim to any specific time in a scenario. One of these simulators is used to train police and emergency workers and replay common scenarios where many times the user fails on the first attempt. The instructor allows them to replay the scenario unchanged and the user tries a few different solutions. This method of learning seems to work very well.

So I saw the same benefits of allowing a user to replay a particular scenario repeatedly to learn from their mistakes.

In terms of a racing videogame, it will allow users to very quickly become accustomed to a new track. By being able to take a corner over and over, you can learn that corner like the back of your hand to the point where it becomes a function of muscle memory.

I recently played the demo and while playing with a wheel I didn't use the rewind function at all. Afterwards I played with the controller and found it more accessible. There was one overtaking scenario that I replayed multiple times to get just right using the nuances of that corner to help me. With that knowledge if I ever come to that same corner and I see someone following a good line I'll know how to pass them with little issue.

I, and I'm sure many sim fans, use the single player portion of these games as a diversion or training grounds and mainly stick to the multiplayer for the competitive racing experience. AI in most racing sims, if not all, is quite lacking and it doesn't compare to online racing. For this reason I am at peace with the decision to include rewind in single player. Just like "restart" it will be an excellent tool to save time and learn at a faster rate. Once you head online, where there is no rewind or restart, you apply what you've learned from the single player portion of the game.

This past summer I played quite a bit of Gran Turismo: Prologue trying to post top times in the Time Trials. A good approach is to learn the track, get accustomed to the car you plan to use, and race the ghost of the #1 time on the leaderboard. By following the #1 racer I found the best line for that car fairly quickly (as compared to racing the track hundreds of times to figure it out myself). At times though the ghost car would pull ahead and I would not be able to see how they raced on the latter portion of the track. I've played some tracks 30 times over to learn it properly.

In the FM3 demo I was able to do the exact same in terms of racing the ghost, but with rewind I found myself able to correct my mistakes then and there without having to complete a whole lap over (which obviously saves times on tracks that are larger than 10km). This saves time and allows me to learn at a much faster rate.

In this sense I heartily recommend this feature for all racing games.

In the sense of using rewind to advance yourself in a single player Career mode, I still think limitations should be put on it. In a way it takes away from the accomplishment of completing a career mode. I can see why you would want to put rewind in a sim game to cater to casual gamers, but I feel without penalty it is a feature that will be abused rather than be used as a learning tool.

We shall wait and see how things pan out.

So my opinion is that it should be used, but with penalty. In time trials, it should discount your time as it does in Forza. In races, you should get a penalty to your Credits winnings if you used it.

I say this because it is handy to have if you made a slight mistake at the end of a race and it saves time restarting the event all over. This means I still get the Gold...but I've gotten half the credits I would have for achieving it.

 

[Exorcet]

To Earth

I think I've chosen my words somewhat sloppily. But how about this, as I don't have time to go over everything. This weekend, I'm going to an autocross. If I get a chance to drive, I'll re-evaluate my thoughts on GT's physics from scratch.

So, GT is pretty strong until you get the limit of grip. It's like I said before, the cars in GT feel kind of slow when breaking traction. It was a bit more abrupt in the FSAE car (though I didn't do too much sliding, we were there to test the car not GT physics). When regaining control, GT tires feel a bit slippery, when in reality they grip pretty well. Driving GT with a wheel definitely helps, if you're quick on recovering from power oversteer, you might not notice the low grip of the tires, but if the grip levels don't actually change, they are still off. It might be poor/no tire deformation models in GT.

There are a lot of variables to consider since this was just one drive and only my second time doing this, but I feel it's good enough for me to stick to my original opinion.

 

[Devedander]

Having rewind will make people perfectionists, and perfectionists will never reach perfection. Perfection is what most strive to be, but no one will become it (in regard to anything). Apply this to GT: Whether it's trying to replicate a perfect angle, or trying to reduce errors, as Smoke said, racing will throw you a curveball. It's inherently unpredictable.

Those which rise to the challenge, rise to it under imperfect and unforgiving conditions. Rewind is only a bandage for a wound. It's a fantasy world.

I thought of it as the contrary... the closest learning tool in GT right now for learning corners and handling properly is license tests... I think we can all agree that a poor driver to takes time to master the license tests will probably have improved his skill level no?

What could be better?

How about being able to practice any corner anytime you are there with the one thing a license test can't provide: Any possible combination of oppent cars, speed, control and damage exactly as it would happen in a race... that's what rewind does.

License tests improve your core skills, but you cannot reproduce every possible race scenario... but with rewind you reproduce an actual race scenario and can reproduce any scenario you are in. There is no way you would have a license test as flexible as this.

That's the beauty of rewind, it lets you master any situation you get into, not just premade contrived ones or setup ones. If you can get into that situation in a race, you can practice it with rewind.

I've driven driving simulators used to train police and emergency workers, and it had rewind.

If anything these were the "real driving simulators" as it had a 3 screen setup with a real dashboard and wheel setup with powerful hydraulic based force feedback, as well as using a real gas and brake pedal setup with their own hydraulic force feedback mechanisms.

Exactly and well put. 👍

 

[sumbrownkid]

@Devedander:

No, like an actual fast-forward. Like in replays after the race. I want to see the blood boil over the notion of that being added.

 

[Devedander]

@Devedander:

No, like an actual fast-forward. Like in replays after the race. I want to see the blood boil over the notion of that being added.

So you want to be able to see a race that the human driver didn't have to actually do to win and see it at faster than real time speed... sounds like bspec x3 speed.

 

[vaioleto]

Devedander, do you not do anything besides post in this thread or troll other threads?

Anyways, I've been playing GTPSP quite a lot recently and I am trying to perfect the nurburgring. At first I used a race car and couldn't quite handle the speed, so I went off a lot, but at no point did I think, gee, wouldn't it be awesome if I could just rewind?

Anyways, if Devedander says: "If you don't like rewind you can just turn it off", then, looking at the poll, where 90.63% of people would never use it or would not buy the game if it's in, then why don't... devedander just buy another game that has rewind in it and stop annoying us all with his silly antics? We don't owe you a reason, so just go away. I'm sick of seeing the word rewind on the top of the forum.

This discussion has basically hit rock bottom, and now everyone are just repeating their beaten to death arguments over and over again, no one wants it save for devedander and co., so I don't know why this thread hasn't been locked yet.

 

[Devedander]

If you don't like what's in this thread, then don't read it

 

[vaioleto]

If you don't like what's in this thread, then don't read it

It's kind of hard when it's up here every time I log into the forum because you keep bumping it.

 

[sumbrownkid]

So you want to be able to see a race that the human driver didn't have to actually do to win and see it at faster than real time speed... sounds like bspec x3 speed.

Nevermind Devedander...the joke didn't work...

 

[Devedander]

It's kind of hard when it's up here every time I log into the forum because you keep bumping it.

Just like rewind, just because it's there, doesn't mean you have to use/click it

Nevermind Devedander...the joke didn't work...

I guess not...

 

[Lucas]

Devedander, do you not do anything besides post in this thread or troll other threads?

Funny how everyone who thinks for himself in this subforum is a troll.

Anyways, I've been playing GTPSP quite a lot recently and I am trying to perfect the nurburgring. At first I used a race car and couldn't quite handle the speed, so I went off a lot, but at no point did I think, gee, wouldn't it be awesome if I could just rewind?

Not everyone thinks the same. You know that, so why bother bringing this up?

Anyways, if Devedander says: "If you don't like rewind you can just turn it off", then, looking at the poll, where 90.63% of people would never use it or would not buy the game if it's in, then why don't... devedander just buy another game that has rewind in it and stop annoying us all with his silly antics?

Because he is not the only one. Just because the 90% doesn't want rewind, it doesn't mean the 10% shouldn't get it. It doesn't affect you at all. And if it does, please tell me where. I'm dying to see someone answer me that question.

We don't owe you a reason

You owe him a reason why he should go away.

I'm sick of seeing the word rewind on the top of the forum.

So do I. But as long as there's a good conversation in this thread, then I'm not bothered. I'm bothered about dozens of threads in this forum, and I don't enter in them. Why can't you do the same?

This discussion has basically hit rock bottom, and now everyone are just repeating their beaten to death arguments over and over again

If people don't want to listen, this will go on for a while.

no one wants it save for devedander and co., so I don't know why this thread hasn't been locked yet.

Everyone wants it except for vaioleto and co.
If you feel like this thread is going nowhere, report it. Even if it's locked, we will all be better.

 

[pricey2003]

That's the first thing i think of everytime i see this retarded thread.

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

That's the first thing i think of everytime i see this retarded thread.

This thread isn't retarded. Its just a little slow at taking a hint, the thread needs to accept that an overwelming majority didn't give the answer the OP and his merry men were looking for. They forever hope that by bringing this thread back from the dead every couple of days that we'll all get their point of view and admit that we are all wrong.

Now if only this forum had a 'make this thread invisible to me' button, it would make a lot of people less likely to keep posting in it.

Including myself

 

[Lucas]

This thread isn't retarded. Its just a little slow at taking a hint, the thread needs to accept that an overwelming majority didn't give the answer the OP and his merry men were looking for.

I create this poll and as such I can tell you that I didn't made it so that the result would change. I only created it to show people that the results weren't like the original poll at all. That's the real purpose of the thread, and I have succeded in proving my point.

They forever hope that by bringing this thread back from the dead every couple of days that we'll all get their point of view and admit that we are all wrong.

You are not wrong in not wanting the feature, but you are wrong in saying that it's useless and because the majority doesn't want it, it shouldn't be in the game. That's all you have to admit. I don't know what can be so hard to understand, and I mean it.

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

You are not wrong in not wanting the feature, but you are wrong in saying that it's useless and because the majority doesn't want it, it shouldn't be in the game. That's all you have to admit. I don't know what can be so hard to understand, and I mean it.

Never. It is useless and the majority don't want it, so it shouldn't be in the game.

On a side note, having naked girls walking around the track whilst driving would be more useful. The distraction would make the game more difficult, but the beauty would make the game more attractive to play.
Apart from the fact it would raise the age rating of the game, i would expect all those who think rewind is good for GT to agree with this feature completely. To be PC, im sure PD could arrange to have some downloadable males too. Dont want to leave out the Girls/Gays.

Also, you really should note i stated the OP, ie Simple Sim. I am aware that the threads were merged, but you probably should let go of the fact that its 'your' poll. As it reads, the poll is that of simple sims, and the poll is to support his opinion.