Lots of Games have it Now. Should GT 5 have a Rewind Option?

[Hyst]

I'll take the same stance I always take on these issues. Include it, and everyone's happy. Don't use it if you don't want to, use it if you want to, and if you don't want it in because you don't have the willpower to refrain from using it, my sincerest condolences to you.

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

I'll take the same stance I always take on these issues. Include it, and everyone's happy. Don't use it if you don't want to, use it if you want to, and if you don't want it in because you don't have the willpower to refrain from using it, my sincerest condolences to you.

So you dont actually have an opinion, you just sit on the fence? I find that a little too easy, if everyone just sat on the fence the world would be an awful place.

It has nothing to do with willpower watsoever. It's a matter of principal. It's a feature that shouldn't be in this type of game, its too far from racing reality. It really isn't any different to giving the cars wings to fly. In fact giving the cars wings would actually be more realistic.

 

[Lucas]

its too far from racing reality.

Gran Turismo isn't perfect in terms of racing reality. Remember the racing line that magically appears out of nowhere? Why should rewind be any different?

Rewind shouldn't appear in Gran Turismo if it ruins it's perfect reality. But Gran Turismo can't be ruined, since it's already ruined with the racing line. So, I don't see why it shouldn't be included.

And Hyst is right, mind you.

Never. It is useless and the majority don't want it, so it shouldn't be in the game.

There are things the majority doesn't want, such as useless cars (1886 cars, which everyone complains in the GT4 subforum). Shouldn't those be not included too?

And I laugh at your girls example, completely ignoring my point. That would disgrace Gran Turismo even more than rewind could, turning it into Need for Speed.

 

[Organ-Donor]

I'll take the same stance I always take on these issues. Include it, and everyone's happy. Don't use it if you don't want to, use it if you want to, and if you don't want it in because you don't have the willpower to refrain from using it, my sincerest condolences to you.

Well they could also include powerups that you aquire where you can shoot lasers at people, leave oil slicks behind you, and have blades that come out of your wheels that shred opponents tires...it could be an option, you wouldnt have to use it, include it and everyones happy.
Its just the idea of a feature like rewind even being implemented is what gets people in an uproar, not so much the idea of it being an option or not.

 

[Hyst]

The fence is as good a seat as any, when it comes to watching two sides bitch at each other over a non-existent problem when a solution that would appeal to both of them is painfully obvious.

If it were up to me, there would be no rewind feature. There would be damage on all cars, including gearbox damage and engine damage, as well as exagerrated engine wear (as you are unlikely to drive a car in the game for as long as you would drive it in real life), I'd make it so you had to pay for repairs after every race with your credits and I'd make it so you had to retake your license test if you got into too many crashes. I consider realism and fun to be synonyms, but different strokes for different folks and all that.

 

[Lucas]

Well they could also include powerups that you aquire where you can shoot lasers at people, leave oil slicks behind you, and have blades that come out of your wheels that shred opponents tires...it could be an option, you wouldnt have to use it, include it and everyones happy.
Its just the idea of a feature like rewind even being implemented is what gets people in an uproar, not so much the idea of it being an option or not.

I understand what you mean, but the same could be said about entering a race, retiring and doing it again, with no punishment, other than doing the race again. Rewind is just that, and if you people know Kaz as much as some of you claim, then you should know that he would never let rewind be used in a race.

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

Gran Turismo isn't perfect in terms of racing reality. Remember the racing line that magically appears out of nowhere? Why should rewind be any different?

Because a racing line can be added to a track, or on a dashboard display, or spoken by a copilot/teacher. Time travel does not exist, and cannot be replicated, therefore rewind can never exist in reality [as of 2009].

Rewind shouldn't appear in Gran Turismo if it ruins it's perfect reality. But Gran Turismo can't be ruined, since it's already ruined with the racing line. So, I don't see why it shouldn't be included.

Again, its too far from Reality.

And Hyst is right, mind you.

Of course he is. He agreed with you getting your feature. Then again, is he also right to say he doesnt actually want it.

If it were up to me, there would be no rewind feature. There would be damage on all cars, including gearbox damage and engine damage, as well as exagerrated engine wear (as you are unlikely to drive a car in the game for as long as you would drive it in real life), I'd make it so you had to pay for repairs after every race with your credits and I'd make it so you had to retake your license test if you got into too many crashes. I consider realism and fun to be synonyms, but different strokes for different folks and all that.

What you have described is exactly what i would want in GT. As for the fence, its kinda uncomfortable.

 

[Nomino]

You don't have to use it, you know.

Anyways, it's not that bad. I got fishtailed in the FM3 demo, and it actually comes in pretty handy. I've been way too criticizing of it, honestly, as I like it. Won't always use it, but I like the option.

You got taken out of a race, so you rewind it to keep going. Very sporting - almost not worth playing the game, cos' you've removed any element of skill needed.

 

[Lucas]

Because a racing line can be added to a track, or on a dashboard display, or spoken by a copilot/teacher. Time travel does not exist, and cannot be replicated, therefore rewind can never exist in reality [as of 2009].

And when have you seen those three in the game? And excuse me, but is there a way to fast forward in time? Because that's one of the abilities of B-Spec.

Restarting is actually a simpler and more effective rewind. When they remove restart from GT, then I will agree that rewind has no place in the game.

Of course he is. He agrees with you in this subject so he must be right.

Fixed. Not everyone who agrees with me is right. But in this subject, I still have to be proved wrong in a logical manner. He says that he doesn't want it, it's perfectly good. I never said it was a bad thing to not want the feature. All I said was that it's stupid to say that rewind affects players other than the user, and just because the majority doesn't want it, it shouldn't be in the game.

And for the record, I voted: "I don't care if it is included, nor if it isn't." and "I would use it only during practice."

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

And when have you seen those three in the game? Restarting is actually a simpler and more effective rewind. When they remove restart from GT, then I will agree that rewind has no place in the game.

I never said they were in the game, but their are feasible alternatives to it in real life.

Restarting an event that happens over and over again, is quite realistic. For example, smash your le mans car, do it next year. All GT is doing is reducing the time between races.

As for b-spec, well yes in theory i could employ another driver and then go to sleep, when i wake up the race is complete. So although the option to speed up the replay is available, its completely different to rewind.

 

[Lucas]

Considering it would also restart damage, it makes a lot of sense to me. The real driving simulator... yeah right.

And what about B-Spec, friend? The way I see it, fast forwarding or rewinding time looks the same to me. They can't be done in real life, and that's all that matters.

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

Considering it would also restart damage, it makes a lot of sense to me. The real driving simulator... yeah right.

And what about B-Spec, friend? The way I see it, fast forwarding or rewinding time looks the same to me. They can't be done in real life, and that's all that matters.

Damage can be fixed. Cars can be fixed by people called mechanics. Wether the game is programmed to charge for that damage is to be seen.

Again B-spec isn't racing, its managing. It wouldn't make sense when your actually driving, niether does rewind.

 

[Lucas]

So it does make sense when in real life, a manager speeds up time? Really? I have to see that myself.

I have yet to see someone say that B-Spec is actually managing, and not a "Let-the-PS2-do-it-mode". People despise B-Spec for a reason. It doesn't take any skill to "manage" a race. Even my father could do it, I just need 3 minutes.

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

So it does make sense when in real life, a manager speeds up time? Really? I have to see that myself.

Its in the same concept that fitting a turbo to a car doesnt take 2 secs like in game. In race options is what were talking about. FF is not in race.

Outside of racing, reality isnt important, i don't care that i can suddenly change from being in Tokyo, then all of a sudden be in L.A.

It's all about the driving.

 

[Exorcet]

Time travel does not exist, and cannot be replicated

Simulator.

Everyone who says rewind isn't realistic is missing the point entirely. Rewind has no effect on realism. It can't be used online in a real race. In single player, people can do whatever they want. Rewind has absolutely no effect on realism.

I never said they were in the game, but their are feasible alternatives to it in real life.

Restarting an event that happens over and over again, is quite realistic. For example, smash your le mans car, do it next year. All GT is doing is reducing the time between races.

As for b-spec, well yes in theory i could employ another driver and then go to sleep, when i wake up the race is complete. So although the option to speed up the replay is available, its completely different to rewind.

Just like rewind is a feasible attempt to replicate a simulator that has rewind in real life. Nothing fake about it.

 

[Lucas]

Its in the same concept that fitting a turbo to a car doesnt take 2 secs like in game.

Which is unrealistic too, but for reasons we all know (make the game better for people) it takes 2 seconds.

In race options is what were talking about. FF is not in race.

So I will asume that no, managers can't fast forward races in real life, and thus it's unrealistic. And it's funny, because for a manager mode, there's little to manage if you can actually fast forward the race x3. It proves there's no skill required, that you can fast forward it and don't care at all.

Outside of racing, reality isnt important, i don't care that i can suddenly change from being in Tokyo, then all of a sudden be in L.A.

It should be realistic at all times, to be honest. As I said:

"for reasons we all know (make the game easier, faster and better for people) it takes 2 seconds"

Rewind is there to make the game easier and faster for people, as is B-Spec.

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

Simulator.

Everyone who says rewind isn't realistic is missing the point entirely. Rewind has no effect on realism. It can't be used online in a real race. In single player, people can do whatever they want. Rewind has absolutely no effect on rewind.

Simulator : Simulation is the imitation of some real thing, state of affairs, or process. The act of simulating something generally entails representing certain key characteristics or behaviours of a selected physical or abstract system.

Online/Real race : Offline races are still races. If i cant be used online, then its cheating, therefore theres no reason for it to be used offline.

"Rewind has absolutely no effect on rewind." eh?


Also,Exorcet since when is GT5 replicating a simulator? I thought it was simulating real life.

 

[Exorcet]

Online/Real race : Offline races are still races. If i cant be used online, then its cheating, therefore theres no reason for it to be used offline.

If you want a real offline race, don't use rewind. If you're practicing use rewind. As I said, it's up to the player. You wouldn't really use a real race to practice in reality, but in a real simulator, you could set up a race as a practice and have all sorts of things not available in reality. Why can't a virtual simulator do the same?

"Rewind has absolutely no effect on realism." eh?

Thanks for catching that.

Also,Exorcet since when is GT5 replicating a simulator? I thought it was simulating real life.

Sims are part of real life.

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

If you want a real offline race, don't use rewind. If you're practicing use rewind. As I said, it's up to the player. You wouldn't really use a real race to practice in reality, but in a real simulator, you could set up a race as a practice and have all sorts of things not available in reality. Why can't a virtual simulator do the same?

I believe that people would actually use the game to practice for real life. F1 drivers, KY, and the GT academy all prove this.

And rewind DOES INDEED have an effect on realism. Racing cars going forward in GT is pretty realistic with the right setup, watching cars uncrash themselves whilst travelling backwards in completely unrealistic.

 

[Exorcet]

I believe that people would actually use the game to practice for real life. F1 drivers, KY, and the GT academy all prove this.

Real race in that quote meant real life race. Typically, you practice at track seesions, qualify, but they sometimes lack the feel of a real race.

And if GT is being used as a practice tool, all the more reason to add rewind.

And rewind DOES INDEED have an effect on realism. Racing cars going forward in GT is pretty realistic with the right setup, watching cars uncrash themselves whilst travelling backwards in completely unrealistic.

It's completely doable in a sim, so it's not unrealistic. Anytime you want to be serious about replicating a race, you can opt to not use, or you're forced into not using it (online).

I find it very hard to understand your logic. If rewind were added, you simply wouldn't use it. You wouldn't know it was there. They could give you an option at game start where you could permanatly disable it unless you started the game again.

Everyone else who sense an opputunity to better themselves would use it to train. And then when they went racing they wouldn't/couldn't use it.

Some people will use it to just win, I understand this. But it doesn't matter. Why can't they enjoy their $60? What makes your opinion so superior that it overrides other peoples wants and needs? Things as you want them only satsify a subset of the population (of GT players). My way satisfies all, though you claim it actually doesn't because it will hurt you in someway. I cannot follow the logic behind that though, but you could go through the game without knowing it's there. And all the realism you claim it shatters is actually fully intact.

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

Real race in that quote meant real life race. Typically, you practice at track seesions, qualify, but they sometimes lack the feel of a real race.

And if GT is being used as a practice tool, all the more reason to add rewind.

It's being used as a practice tool because in race it mimics real life. Rewind doesn't exist in real life. In a race in real life, if you go off track your under pressure to get back on and catch up. In GT you go off track you get the same sense of pressure, maybe not as big pressure, but its still there.

Just because its achieveable by a computer in a sim enviroment does not make it realistic. Realistic is defined by what can happen in the REAL world, on a real track, with a real car.

Some people will use it to just win, I understand this. But it doesn't matter. Why can't they enjoy their $60? What makes your opinion so superior that it overrides other peoples wants and needs? Things as you want them only satsify a subset of the population (of GT players). My way satisfies all, though you claim it actually doesn't because it will hurt you in someway. I cannot follow the logic behind that though, but you could go through the game without knowing it's there. And all the realism you claim it shatters is actually fully intact.

Your opinion is flawed. What if a 10% of GT players decided that they wanted the game to have machines guns or power-ups as stated earlier. Should they include that in the game? If you agree, then i apologise, your opinion is correct.

And no your way doesn't satisfy all. It takes away from the challenge of the game.

 

[Lucas]

So speeding up time while managing a race in real life is not possible. Not possible --> Unrealistic ---> GT unrealistic ---> We can add Rewind, and it wouldn't get any more unrealistic.

It's a Yes or No answer, like you guys like your answers.

 

[Devedander]

I'll take the same stance I always take on these issues. Include it, and everyone's happy. Don't use it if you don't want to, use it if you want to, and if you don't want it in because you don't have the willpower to refrain from using it, my sincerest condolences to you.

+1 for team logical and rational response.

Its just the idea of a feature like rewind even being implemented is what gets people in an uproar, not so much the idea of it being an option or not.

Just like the thought of gay marriage puts people in an uproar with no actual legitimate reason. Fear and emotion vs logic and rational thought.

I think we can all agree the fear and emotion stance is the majority, but does that make it the best solution?

I never said they were in the game, but their are feasible alternatives to it in real life.

Restarting an event that happens over and over again, is quite realistic. For example, smash your le mans car, do it next year. All GT is doing is reducing the time between races.

Well rewind does the same thing (in an ableit flashier way): get punted off a turn or have problems controller your car? It's just like going to the race next year, and the part you already did, it's been proven you CAN do so you don't have to do that part again.

As for b-spec, well yes in theory i could employ another driver and then go to sleep, when i wake up the race is complete. So although the option to speed up the replay is available, its completely different to rewind.

Yes, it's completely different in another way as well: rewind doesn't have to make assumptions about employing drivers to cover up that you don't actually have to do it. As unrealistic as the method is, the result is still the same... you will have to race the whole track, every corner of it... yourself.


And to everyone who keeps pointing out it's a simulator, it's been brought up that many REAL (and I mean ones that are designed specfically to teach you how to do something complicated like fly a plane or handle a high speed car chase) simulators DO have the ability to rewind and it does work as an educational tool.

Then consider that in the realm of simulators, GT is pretty far down the food chain in a lot of depts before you get all hoity toity.

 

[Joey D]

It's being used as a practice tool because in race it mimics real life.

I don't understand why people think GT = Real Life.

GT does not mimic real life at all, there is no fear, no G-force, no movement, no vibration, etc. Not to mention the noise all the cars make is rather lame. About the only thing life like in the game is the handling physics and even then they aren't 100% spot on.

It's a video game, plain and simple. It just happens to have a realistic physics engine.

 

[Lucas]

there is no fear

Well said, Joey D. 👍

I quoted this especific bit because this is what matters. If there's no fear while playing the game, the consequences will be much worse than if the game had rewind and people practiced with it.

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

So speeding up time while managing a race in real life is not possible. Not possible --> Unrealistic ---> GT unrealistic ---> We can add Rewind, and it wouldn't get any more unrealistic.

It's a Yes or No answer, like you guys like your answers.

Again, fast forward 'b-spec' is not part of the actual racing. Its a tool to avoid racing.

Using rewind in racing is taking away from the reality of racing.

Of course there is no fear, PD arent yet able to create that. PD are attempting to mimic real life, with a good sound system, the right pedals and a good quality screen its the closest to real life your going to get. If you can afford to buy the chair that simulates G-forces then even closer to reality.

 

[Exorcet]

It's being used as a practice tool because in race it mimics real life. Rewind doesn't exist in real life. In a race in real life, if you go off track your under pressure to get back on and catch up. In GT you go off track you get the same sense of pressure, maybe not as big pressure, but its still there.

Just because its achieveable by a computer in a sim enviroment does not make it realistic. Realistic is defined by what can happen in the REAL world, on a real track, with a real car.

But it doesn't make sense.

Any F1 driver could go buy Forza in real life and rewind his brains out.

Any F1 driver , in real life, could request to his team that he wants rewind in his sim to help him improve. It does simulate reality.

The goal of rewind is not to be present in a race, but to help you learn to race. If the game rewound automatically upon crashing, it would be one of the worst games ever, just like if it was arcade physics only, racing line, TC, and active steer always on, etc. But none of these features forces you into a commitment, just like rewind doesn't.

"In an online race, if you go off track your under pressure to get back on and catch up. In GT when you decide not to rewind, you go off track you get the same sense of pressure"

It all sounds the same to me.

****Also, see the asterisks below

GT lets you parts testing thousands of times faster than in real life, which would involve pitting it, taking the car apart, getting the new part to work at its best, testing more, etc.

However, people use computers/simulator to see what works and what doesn't. I'm designing brake rotors for an FSAE car right now. I'm not ordering tons of steel and making/testing each brake concept in my head. I'm using a sim to tell me what's best. The suspension guys simulate suspension geometries to figure out what's best. And now, after having a few first time drivers yesterday, we're seriously talking about getting a driving simulator. And do you want to know what one of the biggest features we wanted in that sim is? A completely unrealistic-for-an-actual-race driving line that tells you exactly where to corner, accelerate, and brake.


****With your example of pressure, realize that GT doesn't lose the feeling of pressure with rewind. If you're practicing, you don't need to be under pressure every single moment. I mean, sometimes you just want to [learn to] drive. When we put some people in the FSAE car yesterday, they didn't know what it was capable of. They drove really slow, or pushed it too far. We could drop them in a sim with no damage and some rewind and let them go crazy and find out how to actually drive the thing. And:

If someone wants to cut through the whole game no pressure, so what? Why would you care? This is one of the least logical (IMO) things I can find in this argument. You wouldn't even know about it unless everyone who did it came to your house and told you. And it still wouldn't force you to use rewind and remove the feeling of pressure from your GT racing.

Your opinion is flawed. What if a 10% of GT players decided that they wanted the game to have machines guns or power-ups as stated earlier. Should they include that in the game? If you agree, then i apologise, your opinion is correct.

And no your way doesn't satisfy all. It takes away from the challenge of the game.

With the condition that it is optional and does not take serious dev time (which also applies to rewind, and is the reason I don't want it at game launch) machine guns or any feature is fine. Even if only .00000000000000001% wanted it. I've said that, it must have been, three times already.

If player A doesn't want a challenge, he could use rewind (or a game save) to get through. If player B wants a challenge he can choose not to use rewind. If player E[xorcet] wants a challenge, he certainly isn't goint to look at single player and will go online.

The player E bit is a joke. But in all serious, player A vs player B should satisfy everyone. If you really lack confidence in your free will, then the thing I said about being able to permanatly disable rewind could be used. Certainly, that can't effect you?

 

[Lucas]

Again, fast forward 'b-spec' is not part of the actual racing. Its a tool to avoid racing.

How conveniently.
At first it was a race manager mode. Now it's a tool to avoid racing. The truth is that it's unrealistic to speed up time.

It's a very simple question I'm asking. If it's as realistic as you claim GT to be by not adding rewind, then why can we speed up time in B-Spec? It doesn't make any sense.

Using rewind in racing is taking away from the reality of racing.

So it's better to not race than taking away the reality of racing?
PD, WE DON'T NEED DAMAGE!

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

But it doesn't make sense.

Any F1 driver could go buy Forza in real life and rewind his brains out.

Any F1 driver , in real life, could request to his team that he wants rewind in his sim to help him improve. It does simulate reality.

At the point of rewind, the sim is no longer simulating reality.
Thats fine when if your using GT purely as a tool and you accept that crashing in real life is unnacceptable because you'll probably not be able to continue.

If someone wants to cut through the whole game no pressure, so what? Why would you care? This is one of the least logical (IMO) things I can find in this argument. You wouldn't even know about it unless everyone who did it came to your house and told you. And it still wouldn't force you to use rewind and remove the feeling of pressure from your GT racing.

You logic is correct, i cannot deny that. Yet i rather it was not in the game, same as i would rather power-ups were not in the game, same as Forza's one button racing was not in the game. If the game had everything everyone wanted then it wouldn't be GT, it would be a very generic Need for Speed type game.

How conveniently.
At first it was a race manager mode. Now it's a tool to avoid racing. The truth is that it's unrealistic to speed up time.

It's a very simple question I'm asking. If it's as realistic as you claim GT to be by not adding rewind, then why can we speed up time in B-Spec? It doesn't make any sense.

Race avoiding tools, race manager mode. Same thing. Its not actually racing, if it was racing and could be fast-forward then yes it would be unrealistic to same extent that rewind is.
GT does not allow you to actually fast foward a race in which you are driving. Therefore it's completely different to rewinding in race.

 

[RACECAR]

Sure wish someone would hurry up with a time machine so this argument would stop.