- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
You need more than insinuation and conjecture to prove what you are saying is true. A lack of evidence that something happened is not evidence in itself that that something did, in fact, occur.
Manhunt in SoCal, suspect is surrounded in a cabin, two officers down.
- Thread starter Leonidae@MFT
- 349 comments
- 14,759 views
- 9,741
- Las Vegas UTC-8
- Wardez
- Wardez
Video footage of the cops saying 'burn it down' during the Dorner stand off earlier today: http://youtu.be/cNk-bV40XMc
EDIT: Higher quality audio version. The YouTube link skips the first 1:18 of the video (police chatter and news reporting) and the topic starts around 1:24. I am going to leave the original video link up in the post. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sisVskohj1k#t=78s
EDIT: Higher quality audio version. The YouTube link skips the first 1:18 of the video (police chatter and news reporting) and the topic starts around 1:24. I am going to leave the original video link up in the post. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sisVskohj1k#t=78s
- 19,311
- Inland Empire SoCal
- SOLID_LIFTERS
I'm from this town and you are not. I've seen this type of scenario go down more than once before. It usually happens they way I'm saying. When you're used to the tactic of local law enforcement, it easy to say what I'm saying.
Like I said, we'll never know the truth. All we know is the local law enforcement did wrong. A man did wrong. The rest is speculation. But, knowing the tactics of local law enforcement like I do, I BELEIVE it happened like I said.
Dead men tell no tales. That's they way law enforcement here likes it. Especialy when they're hiding by a bunch of lies.
- 11,660
- GTP_Orido
So, the police just say, " Kill it with fire " ?
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
That's gonna be a tough one to explain. Someone is clearly saying "burn it down" on the audio.
Sounds like that's exactly what may have happened. Let the coverup begin.
- 9,741
- Las Vegas UTC-8
- Wardez
- Wardez
Here's an excellent play-by-play from a person watching live local coverage, and he supplements the details with extra information and links:
I posted this in a less active thread. I am watching live and updating as things go:
I'm watching it live. Hope you don't mind all the updates.
Lots of active gunfire right now.
Reporter, Carter Evans, is caught in the crossfire.
Update: He hasn't heard a report of any officers down but due to the way the officers are behaving, he believes there are injuries. He's hiding in a civillian car. Officers are asking him to leave.
Update 2: Authorities are honing in on a cabin close by, lots more active gunfire and screaming heard.
Update 3: Absolutely fascinating. Authorities are yelling at the reporter, telling to get out amid sounds of massive gunfire. Heard one officer say, "Get the **** outta here, pal!" Live, unedited.
Update 4: No reporting, just sounds of a massive gun battle.
Update 5: Just heard someone yell, "Did you get him?" and "Get the **** down!"
Update 6: Confirmation that he is cornered. Carter Evans is being moved to a safer area. Police scanners reveal suspect is confirmed and shooting.
Update 7: Lots of screaming and yelling, gunfire has slowed down.
Update 8: Confirmed. Two officers are down.
Update 9: Christopher Dorner is not in custody (at least they're reporting he isn't). They must have removed the reporter because the gunfire has completely died down.
Update 10: Reporters are sequestered at the road block. They are not sure how badly the two deputies are injured.
Update 11: There is still gunfire being reported, they are trying to get the two injured deputies out.
Update 12: Speculation that the deputies injured are possibly from the San Bernadino Sheriff's Department.
Update 13: Injured deputies are not receiving medical care, yet.
Update 14: Sirens are heard, vehicles racing by the sequestered reporters, could be a sign that the area is safe enough to bring the injured deputies medical care.
Update 15: Small plume of smoke is rising from a cabin driveway.
Update 16: Looks like authorities are throwing canisters towards the cabin.
Update 17: Rescue units have been moved in. Situation has quieted.
Update 18: Authorities have guns drawn, have not relaxed or eased up. Christopher Dorner is possibly still alive.
Update 19: Carter Evans said they pulled up at the same time as the authorities, and, unknowingly, were caught in the gunfire. They are trying to medivac the injured officers but helicopters can't find a safe place to land. Christopher Dorner is holed up in the cabin.
Update 20: Some guy just prank called the news station, calling the female reporter a "dumbass..." and following with, "you still don't know this is a prank?" Prankster also mentioned "Ronnie, the Limo Driver shot Chris Dorner."
Update 21: Gunshots reported fired five minutes ago (2:18pm, local time).
Update 22: Obvious reporter is obvious: Local schools are on lockdown. Parents cannot pick their children up.
Update 23: It's possible Christopher Dorner is alone in the cabin. No hostages or other suspects reported.
Update 24: It's a waiting game, now. The cabin is completely surrounded. Christopher Dorner is not firing, at the moment.
Update 25: Canisters authorities threw towards the cabin are confirmed to be tear gas.
Update 26: News conference scheduled for 3:00pm, local time (about ten minutes from now).
Update 27: The live news station is now replaying the reporter's time in the gunfire. Things have completely slowed down. I'll check back in if anything new develops.
Update 28: News conference is about to begin at LAPD headquarters.
LAPD News Conference Highlights:
Andrew Smith, LAPD media relations manager, reveals small, preliminary information: Fish and Game warden saw someone fleeing into the woods who looked like Christopher Dorner who then barricaded himself in a cabin. Gunfire was heard. Injured police officers have been removed and flown to hospitals. LAPD only in Big Bear to provide support if asked. 1,045 clues/leads are being followed up on. No hostage confirmation. LAPD is pleading with Christopher Dorner to surrender.
Update 29: Heavy reinforcements have arrived on scene. Heavily armored S.W.A.T vehicles are pulling in. Every civilian vehicle is being searched. Onlookers are holding up signs reading, "Take Chris Dorner Alive!" and "Don't Kill Chris Dorner!" They are evacuating the mountain and searching every car. Military vehicles seen going up the hill.
Update 30: Confirmation that Christopher Dorner had hijacked a man's white pickup truck, wearing combat fatigues and telling the driver that he didn't want to hurt him.
Update 31: Mayor of Big Bear speaking with KCAL 9, says that schools are absolutely still on lockdown. Mentions that the community is resilient. He has heard that, possibly, one of the injured officers has passed away.
CONFIRMED: One of the officers who was injured has died. His body is at Loma Linda awaiting his wife to identify. Will release his name, shortly. It's being reported that the couple recently had their first baby.
Update 32: Authorities are using a megaphone to speak with Christopher Dorner. A large truck with a battering ram on the front has passed the sequestered reporters. Officers with reporters have confirmed that they are filling the cabin with tear gas.
Update 33: Huge cloud of white smoke is pouring from the cabin. Authorities may be poised to make their move.
Update 34: Entire cabin is engulfed in flames.
Tons of helicopter activity now around my house. (4:16pm)
Update 35: Dorner may have escaped burning cabin (4:28pm)
Update 36: Cabin is burning out of control, appears firefighters are not trying to extinguish it.
Update 37: No confirmation that anyone is in the cabin.
Update 38: Speculation that recent gunfire was Chris Dorner and could be self-inflicted. (4:38pm)
Update 39: SWAT has told firefighters to stay back.
Update 40: Tracks have been found leading towards a horse corral. Speculations that they are Chris Dorner's. (4:46)
Update 41: Fire has reached deeply into the cabin. Munitions are exploding.
Update 42: Tension is easing (4:49) SWAT has lowered their weapons.
Another helicopter is flying over my house.
Update 43: It's very quiet (4:53). Reporters are speculating that authorities will allow the cabin to burn out. It's collapsing.
Update 44: Guns are lowered and authorities are walking a little away from the scene. (4:56)
Update 45: Officers are relaxing, some even smoking cigarettes.
Press Conference with San Bernadino Police Department:
At 12:25 vehicle was reported stolen, suspect matched Christopher Dorner, units surrounded the area. Vehicle was located and had been abandoned. Suspect barricaded himself in a nearby cabin and started a massive gunfight. Second deputy shot is expected to survive. Authorities say there was no one else in the cabin. There has been no other gunfire since the cabin fire began. Dorner could possibly be on the loose.
Update 46: Fire continues to burn but is contained, it's unlikely it will spread to the surrounding forest.
Update 47: Media is only allowed to the last checkpoint. Have not received the "all-clear" signal. Authorities at the checkpoint are still very much at the ready. More fire trucks are allowed near the area.
Update 48: Confirmed gunshot from the cabin moments before it caught on fire. Speculating that it could have been Chris Dorner committing suicide.
Update 49: Portable lights and air support have been brought in. (5:18)
I assume that was the helicopters I heard earlier.
Update 50: Redditor Avista has given this tip from the twitter feed of an East Texas news site: Chris Dorner Has Been Shot By Sniper Local news is not reporting it, however.
Update 51: Absolutely no confirmation that Chris Dorner was killed by sniper.
It is 5:30 local time and getting dark. Fire is still burning. There is very little wind; low threat of the fire spreading.
Update 52: Mayor of Big Bear says one elementary school near the site may still be on lockdown but most schools have been evacuated.
Update 53: CONFIRMED Christopher Dorner never left the cabin.
Update 54: Cabin was a rental. Two cleaning ladies were tied up earlier in the day and released by Christopher Dorner, before he hijacked the truck.
News Conference with Los Angeles Mayor Villaraigosa is starting now:
No comments on the events that have unfolded. He has spoken to those who were targeted over the week.
Update 55: Several closed routes in the area have been reopened. Closest route to the site is still closed.
Sorry everyone but I have to take a little break and make dinner for my kids. I will keep the news on, however, and continue to update as the night progresses. Thanks again for all the compliments, the freakin' awesome and unexpected reddit gold and for the tips.
Wait! Update 56: Protection detail by LAPD will remain in effect until confirmation that Christopher Dorner has been killed.
LAPD has scheduled a news conference for 9pm, local time. LAPD Riverside Chief of Police has arrived on site and they are setting up a media command post.
Live Video Feed of the news station I'm watching right now: http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/live-video/
Update 57: Highly likely that Christopher Dorner was in the cabin when it was set ablaze. Also reporting that officers are saying this is HIGHLY LIKELY to be over.
Update 58: The news has little to talk about. Just reporting that the second injured deputy is still in surgery but expected to survive.
Update 59: BREAKING CONFIRMED: A body has been removed from the cabin. CBS correspondent John Miller has reported (REPORTED BUT NOT CONFIRMED BY LAPD)
UNOFFICIAL CONFIRMATION: The body is Christopher Dorner.
LAPD has released a statement to the media (not to the public): Christopher Dorner body has been recovered from the cabin.
Ninja edit: That was really bad timing PIZZA GUY!
Update 60: There may not be a news conference at 9pm from the LAPD. They haven't officially CONFIRMED that it was Christopher Dorner in the cabin but again, it is HIGHLY LIKELY (thanks, reporter, for making me write that again).
Update 61: Confirmation will come from San Bernadino authorities, NOT the LAPD.
I lost about five updates because I edited an older version of this and accidentally saved it. Bad oversight. No excuses but I'm a little distracted being a mom.
As of 8:30 pm, local time, the LAPD held a press conference saying NO BODY had been confirmed. The cabin is too hot to even enter. They will not be confirming anything. It will be up to the San Bernadino authorities. We are still awaiting a press conference on their end.
Tomorrow morning, LAPD is scheduled to hold another press conference. Regular programming is about to begin.
Update 62: San Bernadino's Sheriff press conference:
Cindy Bachman from San Bernadino Sheriff's Department: They have no idea why information was released about the body. There was no indication that Christopher Dorner escaped. They believe he was in the cabin at the time of the fire. Only CONFIRMED INFORMATION he indeed hijacked the pick up truck, was in the house at the time of the fire. The suspect who stole the car was the man who ran into the cabin. Sheriffs are processing the extremely large crime scene, overnight, while mourning the fallen officer. THEY HAVE NOT BEEN INSIDE THE HOUSE. They believe suspect is Christopher Dorner. No information regarding any hostages.
The house was a rental and no one was there except the suspect. They believe the person who barricaded himself into the cabin and engaged in gunfire with the deputies is still in the cabin.
Possible press conference tomorrow.
Again, I apologize for the few missing updates. I searched through every tab to see if I had it anywhere. Nope. Maybe someone took a screen shot?
Update 63: Fish and Game department Press Conference: (best press conference all day)
The suspect was driving a purple Nissan. Two wardens were driving down highway 32, approaching two buses. Tucked in between the buses was the suspect's vehicle, the warden driving attempted a U-turn, engaged in pursuit and radioed. Suspect passed the two school buses and turned onto Glass Road. The wardens hadn't realized he had turned. They continued ahead of the school buses. Three additional wardens continued on to Glass Road. They expected to find the purple Nissan. The warden in the front noticed a white truck, driving erratically and at a high speed. Recognized the driver as Christopher Dorner. The suspect rolled his window down, began shooting at the wardens, hitting their work truck multiple times. The wardens stopped their vehicle and the third warden grabbed his patrol rifle, firing multiple rounds at the suspect. It is unknown how many times the truck was hit or if the suspect was hit.
9-11 call from two women who were held hostage may have mentioned purple Nissan. More than a dozen rounds were shot.
Suspect held pistol out of the window and fired multiple shots.
No amount of time is specified but it all happened relatively quickly. The warden stopped the vehicle before he engaged in gunfire. Suspect drove away while being fired at. The warden cannot confirm if he hit the suspect.
Rifles the wardens use are highly accurate.
FIVE Fish and Game Wardens positively identified AND saw the suspect. He was so close they immediately recognized his face.
This was at 12:45 and a few minutes later he had disappeared. There have been six wardens assigned to the manhunt.
Ninja edit #3: Best press conference yet!
Update 64: Not that it matters but they recently changed their name from "Fish and Game" to "Fish and Wildlife".
No further information as of 9:08pm. Thanks for your patience and awesome support!
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
Considering that the police don't have that kind of weapon, it's highly unlikely. The only plausible explanation would be a tear gas grenade malfunctioning.
I see nobody has put forward the possiblity that the suspect did it. He's been highly-critical of the LAPD and claims nothing about their culture has changed. He also said in his manifesto that he knew he would not survive. And as I said, doing things by the book is in the LAPD's interests, because it proves the suspect wrong in his claims. Therefore, it stands to reason that he could have shot himself and set the fire because he knew that if he staged the scene to look like a cover-up had taken place, then people would believe that a cover-up had taken place.
How can you identify the person in the audio as someone in a position to give "burn it down!" as an order to the other police?
- 19,311
- Inland Empire SoCal
- SOLID_LIFTERS
I've seen this type of scenario before, like I've said. The tear gas canister they use down here shoots a large flame out (6" to 8" in length) for a good 15 to 20 seconds along with the tear gas. They've been doing this same tactic for years down here. It's been pointed out several times in the media. Throw in a tear gas canister, flame ignites the place up, burns suspect out.
Today was no different.
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
I can't, which is why I said you can clearly hear someone saying it, not that a cop said it or that an order was given. However, it's likely the only people on that scene were cops and a reporter or two and the odds of a random guy running around yelling "burn it down" for fun, and then it coincidentally burns down, are pretty slim. My money goes with a cop in charge yelling "burn it down" and then they burn it down...seems far more likely.
When you add to that, they tore the house down without ever having entered it and therefore had no idea whether he had hostages or not, especially when they knew he had 2 earlier in the day, it seems fairly clear they meant to kill this guy come hell or high water.
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
What do you think they had been doing in the hours before firing the tear gas? Standing around having a barbecue?
They would have found the schematics for the building, so they would have had a pretty good idea where everything was. They would have done everything they could to gather as much information about what was happening inside. I understand that two hostages had been released some time before the police made the incursion; they would have questioned the hostages and found out where the suspect was, what he was armed with, any kind of preparations he had made against an assault, whether there were any other hostages, and so on and so forth. Short of actually having someone inside the cabin, they would have had a pretty good idea of what was going on.
- 4,543
- Bay Area, CA
- Zenith113
Why is it that whenever somebody else tries to pick apart the turn of events they're crazy, have no idea what they're talking about, or "just opposing you just to oppose you." Yet you, a foreigner with no experience with armed response can just tell everyone else how things went with you apparent skills of clairvoyance? This applies to both the shootings of two women and a man and the recent situation at the cabin.
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
Why is it that whenever someone tries to challenge your version of events, you move to dismiss them? You claim that I am a "foreigner with no experince with armed response", but that's an assumption on your part. How do you know that I don't have any expeirence with an armed response? You don't know that - you've just come to that conclusion based on the way I disagree with you.
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
Why do you assume I'd be willing to share that? And if I were to share it, why would I believe that anything I say at this point will change your mind?
You have come into this thread and based on assumption about what I'm saying before I've even had a chance to read it. When we were debating the idea of teachers carrying guns, you dismissed my ideas, even though I had knowledge and experience that was relevant to discussion simply because I didn't have your knowledge - when, ironically, you didn't have my knowledge. It makes you a hypocrite.
Now, assuming for the moment that I have experience with using violence as a means of dealing with an armed threat, answer me this: why would I want to share those experiences - which may be personal and traumatic - with you, given your behavior?
You have come into this thread and based on assumption about what I'm saying before I've even had a chance to read it. When we were debating the idea of teachers carrying guns, you dismissed my ideas, even though I had knowledge and experience that was relevant to discussion simply because I didn't have your knowledge - when, ironically, you didn't have my knowledge. It makes you a hypocrite.
Now, assuming for the moment that I have experience with using violence as a means of dealing with an armed threat, answer me this: why would I want to share those experiences - which may be personal and traumatic - with you, given your behavior?
- 17,865
- 509
Because he clearly knows something we don't, but he doesn't care to share what it is. But he knows.
Honestly, the only opinion you care to hear is your own, and the only person you seem to respect is yourself.
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
- 17,865
- 509
If you honestly feel like that is what we are doing here, you have a persecution complex. Or you simply are blind to how incredibly condescending and dismissive you are other members and their views. If you feel people are trying to demonize you, perhaps you should reflect on why you're apparently being singled out from all the other members.
When questioned, you are generally demeaning while frequently spinning yourself in circles that only you can follow. Often you bank on "common sense" to justify opinions on situations that are quite removed from you, and it is profoundly odd that you regularly apply your views, based on your life in another country, to the situations in the US. That you then defend this "common sense" with hypothetical "what if you were there" in most all situations just makes your stance look very weak. When you are called out on this, you just repeat the statement of "common sense" and it begins all over. Generally, your posts contain many words but seem to say very little. And yes, I am reading them in their entirety. You, as a writer, should be familiar with the importance of being concise while conveying thoughts.
The vast majority of your posts in this thread have just been the same sentiment repeated in various ways. The same applied to the Guns and Teachers thread, and it seems in various other threads scattered through out the forum. More than a few members have noted this behavior from you. Several have commented on it and you just ignore them, call them hypocrites, or question their literacy. For someone that use to be staff, it seems the concept of respect or even restraint is surprisingly lacking.
I can't recall a single respectful post from you in general, and certainly not when responding to someone that questions your opinion. Perhaps I misspoke when I said you only respect yourself, as superiority complex would very much explain this sort of behavior.
- 5,303
- Riverside, Ca
- GTP_Leonidae_MFT
Are they even 100% certain it was him?
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
This coming from the man who simply talks over the top of people who disagree with him in even the slightest way because he cannot tolerate the way ideas other than his own exist. And when you don't get your way, you resort to brute force attacks, trying to ram your opinions down other peoples' throats whilst pretending that you are somehow doing them a favour. You like to claim that you are "calling people out on their BS", but in my experience, the people who take pride in that are usually the people who are the most guilty of spreading it around. Case in point:
You were the one who accused me of claiming that the actions of the police in opening fire on the Toyota in Torrance were justified. And yet, if you read back through all of the posts that I made on the subject, you will see that I repeatedly used the word "UNjustified" to describe their actions. I find it strange, then, that someone who claims to have read all of my posts would overlook a detail like that to the point where they fundamentally misconstructed my entire argument.
If my posts are so upsetting to you, the solution is simple: put me on your ignore list, and you will never have to put up with anything I say ever again. I'm surprised that you haven't already, since you clearly like to believe that you are the bigger man here. I can only asume that you take some kind of petty enjoyment out of what you no doubt think is a witty and intellectual commentary, but is really just an attempt to force other people to think the way you want them to think, coupled with the belief that we're all desperate to be able to say that we have your respect.
I both invite and advise you to add me to your ignore list. It should be obvious by now that neither of us is going to capitulate.
- 17,865
- 509
You know, if you actually saw how I interacted with most members here, you'd realize I do hear them out and will reconcile differences. You are the only member that has managed to have a consistent problem with me to this extent, for this long, with such drawn out exaggerations that border on personal attacks.
Sorry, in my mind, excusing them for failing so grossly at their job is comparable to justifying their actions. Following that up with you claiming we'd do no different certainly didn't help with that image, as others here have also mentioned. And this about the dozenth time we (me and others) have gone over this with you here, yet you continue to saying excusing them is nothing like justifying their behavior, despite the fact excuse and justify are synonyms.
Do you realize how many words you've added in there to mock me? I'll bold them for you actually. If you notice, most of the words there contribute almost nothing to what you are actually saying, aside to attack me. You do this constantly, to many members.
You could have just wrote "why haven't you put me on your ignore list if I'm so objectionable?" To which the answer is I've yet to ignore anyone on GTP, and I don't plan to change that; I am not okay with sticking my fingers in my ears because someone is contrary.
Why would I take your advice when, by your own words, never agree with you?
Take a look around and read other members' posts. You may realize I'm hardly alone in thinking you talk down to damn near everyone.
- 11,660
- GTP_Orido
With him dead, the cops have less issue to contend with, no trial, no further investigation, no public scrutiny in the proceedings and easier for them to cover up any skeleton in the closet.
- 19,698
- Alabamamania
Look, I have a vaguely thin anti-authority streak within me, but the main goal of a police force - whether independently or en masse - is not to become a bunch a martyrs, but to disarm a public threat with equal (or incrementally greater) force.
I won't glance at any conspiracy theory until after the dust and acrimony has settled, although my tolerance for most of them is essentially zero.
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Sure are a lot of assumptions in there. If they did find schematics, a blind assumption on your part, how would that tell them anything except the basic structure of the building? How would knowing the basic structure of the building help them in any way other than to know where the rooms were? Since they obviously had no plans to storm the cabin and you can plainly see from the outside it's a wood structure, of what benefit would the plans be?
The suspects were two frightened women as I understand it. How would they know what weapons he had? How do you know he didn't run them into the cabin, throw them into a room without a window and lock the door so they saw nothing?
And most importantly, "short of actually having someone in the cabin"...don't you think that's rather important? They did not enter the building by their own admission, so they had no way of knowing if there was 0 or 10 other people in there. None, zero. And yet they proceeded to destroy the building and burn it down.
Similar threads
