Mass Shooting in Las Vegas

  • Thread starter Daniel
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Obelisk
Considering that you're from Sweden, where - quite ironically - the Swedish government says that fully automatic rifles are technically legal for self-defense (first paragraph), this is kind of funny.

We carry semi auto rifles for a variety of reasons. Hunting. Sharpshooting and marksmanship (both of which are for sport and a measure of skill). Self-defense in the event that the rifle is the closer weapon to grab. Hell, some people shoot their rifles at gun ranges for fun, and a variety of rifles, semi or auto, are popular collector's items.

All of that said, I want to point out what this thread is about.



A man was hellbent on destroying human lives and went through with it. We have sixty dead and 500+ injured. These numbers would be similar if he had used a strong pipe bomb or similar non-firearm weapon.
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So let's make it harder for these types of events to happen- Ban the weapon and the sales. Easy access to these types of weapons is one of the main problems. Tell me... You can go inside the stores and buy readily made "pipe bomb" in USA... I'm think no. And it doesn't matter if automatic rifles is "technique" legal in Sweden because they are not readily available for purchase.
Danoff
It's up to each individual to determine their self-dense needs. A semi-automatic refile is not very useful for self-dense in most scenarios, but there are scenarios where you would need one. A good example would be a black rancher on an isolated piece of land seeing torches and white hooded figures headed for his property.

Nobody "walks around" with semi-automatic rifles here. But I'd like to return you to the incident this thread is about, which is an incident involving a gun that is prohibited by law to even exist, used to commit a crime that is prohibited by law, a crime which is very similar to crimes carried out without the use of a prohibited weapon. Why you're using this event to push for legislation against weapons which were not used, when legislation against the weapon that was used exists and was ignored, is beyond me.

Your point is not well-made here. The circumstances do not fit your agenda.
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So this types of KKK attacks is something the innocent ordinary civilian need to be afraid of every day? That he need to go buy powerful assault rifles? Wow....
 
MU5T4NG
Spanish van attack, Finsbury Park, London Bridge, Manchester, Paris, Stockholm, Berlin, Nice, Brussels, Paris '15 say otherwise.
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Most if not all of those came from people who were either 1) from muslim countries (migrants), 2) had muslim parents and grew in that religious / cultural environment or 3) converted to salafi islam.

You simply don't see mass shootings in Europe from european citizens as often as you see them in the USA. By the same token you don't see so many terrorist attacks in the US as you see in europe because the european muslim population in way higher (and less moderate I'd say) than the US muslim population.


@Danoff Exactly. That's why you see way more shootings and mass shootings than bomb attacks. Because despite not being rocket science to produce a bomb, the majority of the people don't know how to do it and the risk of dying while making the bomb itself is higher than using a gun. If this was not the case and producing bombs would be safer for the attacker and easier to make, no one would use guns. :)
 
Todo Em Lixo
So this types of KKK attacks is something the innocent ordinary civilian need to be afraid of every day? That he need to go buy powerful assault rifles? Wow....
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Strawman.

I do not own guns because of events that I am afraid of every day. I own guns in case of events which are very unlikely to transpire, and yet, which could transpire. I also own a few emergency preparedness supplies, not for events that I am afraid of every day, but for events that are unlikely to transpire, and yet, which could transpire.

I own a life insurance policy, not because I think I will die prematurely, but it could happen and I want to have prepared for my family. I have a car alarm, not because I think my car will be broken into, but...
 
MU5T4NG
You are also missing the point of earlier posts. Evil people, like the Vegas shooter, will do WHATEVER IT TAKES to get their hands on destruction and death. The only thing you're doing by banning them is taking away the rights of American citizens under the 2nd Amendment.
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That's a pretty rubbish argument, the point is that banning guns makes it a lot harder and more expensive for people to get a gun. It's also arguably not your right to own a gun, as I'm pretty sure the constitution doesn't specify which weapons you can or can't own, and unless you want it to include all weapons, including tanks, fighter jets, missiles and nuclear bombs, the limit of weaponry is completely arbitrary and the 2nd amendment is pretty meaningless.

MustangRyan
What if I told you that the United States had the 94th highest intentional per capita homicide rate in the world? Amazingly, we aren't the world's far and away leader in per capita murder rate, as everyone would have you believe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate (sort the table by rate)
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I don't think having a lower homicide rate than countries in the Middle East and Africa is much of an achievement.
 
zzz_pt
Most if not all of those came from people who were either 1) from muslim countries (migrants), 2) had muslim parents and grew in that religious / cultural environment or 3) converted to salafi islam.

You simply don't see mass shootings in Europe from european citizens as often as you see them in the USA. By the same token you don't see so many terrorist attacks as you see in europe because the european muslim population in way higher (and less moderate I'd say) than the US muslim population.
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Do you know what every one of those attacks had in common? They were all done by evil people, as I referred to in an earlier post. Guns are not the problem, as so many leftists like to point to. People are the issue. A gun cannot shoot on it's own without some sort of force pressing the trigger.
deththrasher
You guys have a mass shooting every damn day.
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Ok smarta--, please point to me every mass shooting that has happened the past two weeks then?
 
deththrasher
You guys have a mass shooting every damn day.
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Usually using a banned gun. But how many mass killings do you think we'd have if no guns existed in the US? There are alternatives... which are repeatedly ignored here.

Spurgy 777
That's a pretty rubbish argument, the point is that banning guns makes it a lot harder and more expensive for people to get a gun. It's also arguably not your right to own a gun, as I'm pretty sure the constitution doesn't specify which weapons you can or can't own, and unless you want it to include all weapons, including tanks, fighter jets, missiles and nuclear bombs, the limit of weaponry is completely arbitrary and the 2nd amendment is pretty meaningless.
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The US supreme court did a nice job analyzing the constitution on this point in the majority opinion in DC vs. Heller. Give it a read if you're interested in this kind of argument.

deththrasher
You can't ban vans or knifes as they have many other uses.

Guns are designed and have one purpose..to kill.
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That's why I own mine. To kill someone in self-defense if the situation arises.
 
Jump_Ace
Could the guy do it without a gun? No. People kill people with guns. EOD.


Jerome
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If the gun is in fact an illegal weapon, this would've been possible regardless of gun laws.

Jump_Ace
No sarcasm, time to calibrate your radar :P

It boggles the mind why people continue to support guns these days. I love the irony that Republicans support guns which people use to kill others yet hate the notion of abortion. Which is it? Do you 'support life', or not? :lol:


Jerome
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A lot of assumptions being made right now.

Now I don't think you were pointing at me with being a Republican, but as for gun laws. I personally don't know much when it comes to my stance on the issue, both sides I think have strong arguments and you have locations on both sides (Australia with gun control, Switzerland without) that are completely fine. I think it depends on the culture.

However, I don't think it's the weapons fault any more than the individual using it. Sure you can make stronger gun control to prevent this from happening again, sure BUT it still doesn't change who is really to blame for this incident.
 
MU5T4NG
Do you know what every one of those attacks had in common? They were all done by evil people, as I referred to in an earlier post. Guns are not the problem, as so many leftists like to point to. People are the issue. A gun cannot shoot on it's own without some sort of force pressing the trigger.

Ok smarta--, please point to me every mass shooting that has happened the past two weeks then?
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http://www.abc15.com/news/data/mass...over-270-mass-shootings-have-occurred-in-2017
 
Danoff
Usually using a banned gun. But how many mass killings do you think we'd have if no guns existed in the US? There are alternatives.
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How many mass shootings happen in the UK or AUS?

Danoff
That's why I own mine. To kill someone in self-defense if the situation arises.
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That's the sad part, you need a gun to defend from a gun, in countries with no guns, you don't need a gun to defend from a fist or bat. This is why the US has so much homicides.
 
deththrasher
How many mass killings? Also if a single guy goes crazy with a knife..maybe a dozen dead at the very, very worst, guy goes crazy with a gun? 58 dead (so far) and 500 injured.
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Have you actually read this thread? 16 minutes ago I posted an example of 168 people being killed with a truck and some fertilizer in the US. There have been many examples posted here. You're ignoring them.
 
Danoff
Have you actually read this thread? 16 minutes ago I posted an example of 168 people being killed with a truck in the US. There have been many examples posted here. You're ignoring them.
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Yes there are instances of violence around the world that we can't solve, but as I said in the US there are mass shootings pretty much every. single. day.
 
deththrasher
Yes there are instances of violence around the world that we can't solve, but as I said in the US there are mass shootings pretty much every. single. day.
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Your website is a bit loose with the definition. But I find it interesting that you think we can "solve" the issue. If we were to pass legislation which somehow prevented this guy from using a gun to carry out his attack (which would be surprising, given that his weapon was against the law), you're telling me that you know he would not have rented a moving van and done the same exact thing? The most successful mass killing's in our nation's modern history were carried out using knives, trucks, and fertilizer.
 
Todo Em Lixo
"Other" things not designed as weapons- that means -> less effective and more lives saved.
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Are you not reading this thread? 5 minutes ago I posted this:

me
Have you actually read this thread? 16 minutes ago I posted an example of 168 people being killed with a truck and some fertilizer in the US. There have been many examples posted here. You're ignoring them.
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It's disturbing how these types of people exist. Crazy? Politically motivated?(sounds like the latter to me so far, but it's early) I'm glad that the shooter took his own life, but interested in what we find out about this man.
 
https://www.prisonplanet.com/fbi-so...a-literature-photos-taken-in-middle-east.html

The Las Vegas shooter didn’t commit suicide as the mainstream media is reporting, but was killed by a FBI hostage rescue team who also found Antifa literature in his hotel room, according to a source linked to the team.

The FBI team took the suspect out after he opened fired on them, according to the source, and afterwards the team found photos taken in the Middle East of a woman linked to the suspect, 64-year-old Stephen Paddock.

ISIS recently took responsibility for the mass shooting, and the AP even admitted ISIS doesn’t take responsibility unless it’s at least loosely associated with the attack
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MU5T4NG
It should be noted over 1/3 of these attacks happened in California, Illinois, DC, New York, and Virginia. Most of these areas moderate to strict gun control.
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To the rest of us, they all happened in the US, in which you can have guns. If guns are banned or restricted in some states it's probably pretty easy to bring them across state lines.

Most non-Americans don't care about the specific state by state legislation, you're country allows guns at least partially, and lots and lots of people get shot. 0.9 homicides a day on average, for five years.
 
MU5T4NG
Do you know what every one of those attacks had in common? They were all done by evil people, as I referred to in an earlier post. Guns are not the problem, as so many leftists like to point to. People are the issue. A gun cannot shoot on it's own without some sort of force pressing the trigger.
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Yes, all the people who kill other people (except in self defense) are crazy. That argument of guns don't kill people though is a bad excuse for keeping everything the same imo, since you don't know who the crazy people are until they do something crazy, you'll keep risking (the lives of others and your own maybe) and allowing them to have guns, even though the guns by themselves don't kill because they're unanimated objects.

I agree that guns (and other tools/instruments) don't kill but the people using them do. The thing is that some of those tools/objects kill with little to no effort and require no experience or high amounts of money to get and use. Guns are probably best option for crazy people because they're relatively cheap, they were developed to kill as quickly and efficiently as possible without getting your hands dirty and they're legal (in the US more than anywhere else).

There are tens of thousands of deaths by gun violence in the US and mass shootings are not as uncommon as we would like. Unless you think the USA has a lot more crazy "evil" people than in Europe (I don't thing that just to be clear), there's no way around of the fact that guns are part of the problem. If you do, then I rest my case.
 
Now to add to some more drama.
Unconfirmed reports of an Active shooter at University of Southern California.
 
zzz_pt
Yes, all the people who kill other people (except in self defense) are crazy. That argument of guns don't kill people though is a bad excuse for keeping everything the same imo, since you don't know who the crazy people are until they do something crazy, you'll keep risking (the lives of others and your own maybe) and allowing them to have guns, even though the guns by themselves don't kill because they're unanimated objects.

I agree that guns (and other tools/instruments) don't kill but the people using them do. The thing is that some of those tools/objects kill with little to no effort and require no experience or high amounts of money to get and use. Guns are probably best option for crazy people because they're relatively cheap, they were developed to kill as quickly and efficiently as possible without getting your hands dirty and they're legal (in the US more than anywhere else).

There are tens of thousands of deaths by gun violence in the US and mass shootings are not as uncommon as we would like. Unless you think the USA has a lot more crazy "evil" people than in Europe (I don't thing that just to be clear), there's no way around of the fact that guns are part of the problem. If you do, then I rest my case.
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You can ban every gun and there will still be mass shootings and terrorism. Turns out murderers do not care about laws.
 
stonesfan129
You can ban every gun and there will still be mass shootings and terrorism. Turns out murderers do not care about laws.
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I didn't say to ban all guns. I'm not that pretentious to talk about a solution for the problem. I'm just pointing out the problem. I'll leave the solutions for the people who know more than me.

Also, I wouldn't mix the problem of gun violence (pretty much as daily thin in the US) with terrorism. They're completely different things.
 
First, my sincerest condolences to those affected by this tragedy. I'm just coming into this thread now and I've not read the full 6 pages, so forgive me if I'm repeating a point that's already been made; I'm just stating my opinion on the matter.

My opinion on the prevention of these sort of incidents is that yes, stricter control over firearms and ammunition is needed to make it harder for people to obtain weapons which have been designed specifically to kill people (rather than for hunting or sport) at some range. I'm not knowledgable on guns so I'm not going to pretend to know how to classify these weapons, though assault weapons seems like a suitable term despite its political baggage. However, I believe that targeting guns is simply targeting a symptom and not the cause. As has been mentioned elsewhere in the thread, people can find other ways of killing other people. Few are quite as effective and easy to execute as shooting into a crowd, but it's not a hard thing to do if someone is really set on carrying out a terrorist attack. The issue is that these people exist in the first place. I personally feel that proper mental healthcare is a solid first step in beginning to reduce the frequency of these attacks in relation to other nations. By taking a three-pronged approach of A) doing a better job of educating people properly so that they can think critically and actually fight against propaganda that may promote such extremist action, B) providing better mental healthcare that is more accessible and changing the perception of mental health issues in the US so that people who do need help are given support by others and encouraged to take advantage of the professional help available, and C) reducing the ease of access to deadly weapons for mentally ill or extremist individuals in particular and the general public in general. I don't think that gun control alone is a solution which will work, although gun control should still be part of the solution.

But that's just like, my opinion, man.
 
zzz_pt
I didn't say to ban all guns. I'm not that pretentious to talk about a solution for the problem. I'm just pointing out the problem. I'll leave the solutions for the people who know more than me.

Also, I wouldn't mix the problem of gun violence (pretty much as daily thin in the US) with terrorism. They're completely different things.
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That is what people are saying (ban all guns). If you ban all the guns then criminals will just turn to whatever other means they have to commit a crime. Calling for a gun ban is ignorance at its finest.
 
stonesfan129
That is what people are saying (ban all guns). If you ban all the guns then criminals will just turn to whatever other means they have to commit a crime. Calling for a gun ban is ignorance at its finest.
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Or, you know, they'll just keep using guns.
 

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