Mass shooting in Southern Texas Church

[PeterJB]

Even though most of these shootings are done with illegally-obtained guns, it does still seem to be largely America that has a problem with mass shootings committed with illegally-obtained guns. Considering that in countries with very strict gun laws and only a tiny portion of the population owning legally-obtained guns, there still seems to only be a tiny number of shootings done with legally or illegally-obtained guns, when you would think that access to illegal guns would be equally as difficult (and illegal) basically everywhere, and yet it still happens more in America, so there is a clearly an underlying issue that affects America in a different way to other countries.

 

[Michael88]

I don't know, and I admit this. I feel that further limitations should be put on gun ownership in the US, but it will require a rational study of what the factors are in gun designs that make them well suited to attacking other humans rather than being used for sport, and I don't have the knowledge or statistics to define any of these factors.

Even with all the professional knowledge one quickly realizes that its not possible to label guns that way - there is no gun especially suited to attack people, every situation is different. Guess what comes closest is a machine gun used in the military, and those are strictly banned from civil ownership.

One could argue that magazine capacity is a factor. But what do you say about uncle Mikes typical boring 4 round capacity hunting rifle, it has a scope on it and you can use it to snipe somebody at 500 meters like Whitman did in the Texas tower shooting which was one of the worst shootings ever. But what about pistols? They are very easily concealable and can be smuggled into schools. In the end you can find reasons to ban everything.

Again, I could make a similar situation with cars, lets ban cars that are especially suited for speeding because they are especially dangerous for traffic safety. Sounds kind of reasonable, huh? But then you quickly realize that you do not need a Ferrari or a Koenigsegg to speed, you can do that with a 12 ton semi because in the end, all those vehicles share one thing: they drive, and they can all be used by nutcases to endanger people on the road. Do you ban all cars then? Or do you try to ensure only capable and mentally sound people operate vehicles?

 

[Johnnypenso]

http://nypost.com/2017/11/06/texas-church-gunman-killed-himself-after-shootout-with-locals/

The shooter seems to have committed suicide after being chased down by two civilians, one armed, and there may have been gunfire exchanged during the pursuit.

Johnnie Langendorff, one cool customer and a true American hero. Sprang into action without any thought to personal safety because it was the right thing to do. Johnnie and the other citizen who sprang into action, as yet unidentified, may have saved dozens of innocent lives:

 

[Michael88]

Even though most of these shootings are done with illegally-obtained guns, it does still seem to be largely America that has a problem with mass shootings committed with illegally-obtained guns. Considering that in countries with very strict gun laws and only a tiny portion of the population owning legally-obtained guns, there still seems to only be a tiny number of shootings done with legally or illegally-obtained guns, when you would think that access to illegal guns would be equally as difficult (and illegal) basically everywhere, and yet it still happens more in America, so there is a clearly an underlying issue that affects America in a different way to other countries.

Like any other country America has some very special problems, this is just one of them. As I mentioned before, Switzerland beats the US hands down in statistical gun ownership and also the liberties in the laws itself. You can obtain a fully automatic assault rifle (Yes, a true assault rifle this time) no problem, in fact you have the option to take the rifle you served with in the military home. Thats unthinkable in the US. And Switzerland does not exactly have a problem with shootings.

I totally believe psycho-pharmacy plays a huge role in this, many of those meds are only allowed to be sold in the US because they are known to cause very dramatic side effects, and they are sold way too freely and easily. And its a fact that many of the shooters took up to several of those questionable medications before their attack. I think the US has a HUGE medical drugs problem in general and that this should be investigated much more closely instead of banning weapons. This may save lives in many ways. In my opinion, this is where the problem fixing should be started.

 

[McLaren]

Yet those legal guns are what killed 26 people in the first place.

But that's an argument for another time and place.

Govt. denied him a permit because he had an assault charge.

So there’s no “legal” gun here as far as the law is written.

 

[Exorcet]

its a fact that many of the shooters took up to several of those questionable medications before their attack.

Do you have statistics on this? I'd be curious to see how often it occurs.

I think the US has a HUGE medical drugs problem in general and that this should be investigated much more closely instead of banning weapons. This may save lives in many ways. In my opinion, this is where the problem fixing should be started.

While I don't want to see weapons bans, it could be good for gun shops and owners to take some more responsibility with weapon sales and act more cautiously. They're not to blame for the actions of any shooters, but they can influence how easy it is for these events to happen.

 

[Michael88]

Do you have statistics on this? I'd be curious to see how often it occurs.

I think the statistics said that it was over 50% but I will try to dig it out-.

While I don't want to see weapons bans, it could be good for gun shops and owners to take some more responsibility with weapon sales and act more cautiously. They're not to blame for the actions of any shooters, but they can influence how easy it is for these events to happen.

A good intention but it would never work, imagine a white gun shop owner would refuse to sell a gun to a black person - or insert any other minority - simply because he honestly thinks this customer would do bad stuff with it. Sad as it is, thats a lawyers and general medias wet dream. They would be all over the place and nuke the shop owner back into the stone age.

 

[Stotty]

Both my wife and I have lived in the US (my wife returned this weekend from a 2.5 year job assignment in Miami), and we both love it there, but there's something very broken in the culture.

>13,000 people killed with guns in 2017 to date. 2,300 of those under the age of 17. 900 of those since the Vegas massacre. (numbers exclude suicides)

There seems to be no motivation to either control the spread of guns, or if not, to understand and try to fix the fundamental causes.

It's sad that such a developed society, with (supposedly) such a strong religious culture, places such a low value on human life.

 

[TheCracker]

Govt. denied him a permit because he had an assault charge.

So there’s no “legal” gun here as far as the law is written.

Replace 'legal' with 'easily obtainable' it's all the same for someone motivated to commit a (gun) crime.

As commendable as it was for those civilians who took it upon themselves to take down the gunman, it's still shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

 

[Michael88]

Both my wife and I have lived in the US (my wife returned this weekend from a 2.5 year job assignment in Miami), and we both love it there, but there's something very broken in the culture.

>13,000 people killed with guns in 2017 to date. 2,300 of those under the age of 17. 900 of those since the Vegas massacre. (numbers exclude suicides)

There seems to be no motivation to either control the spread of guns, or if not, to understand and try to fix the fundamental causes.

It's sad that such a developed society, with (supposedly) such a strong religious culture, places such a low value on human life.

And now find the statistics for traffic deaths. Not saying gun deaths isn't a problem that needs to be fixed, not at all, but get your priorities straight. Gun deaths sound so bad but compared to horrible traffic accidents gun deaths are minuscule in the grand scheme of things. And I do not hear anybody ever crying out for improving traffic safety, I see no demonstrations, no debates, nothing.- One of the greatest dangers of the average citizen is to die in a traffic accident, yet people go crazy over shootings which statistically are on the very very bottom of possible causes for an untimely death.

(Also be aware that the largest part of the gun death statistics is made of suicides and police shootings. )

America has a problem with shootings when compared to other countries, thats an undeniable fact, but the media is inflating this completely out of proportion, compared to the other, much more urgent problems.

 

[McLaren]

Replace 'legal' with 'easily obtainable' it's all the same for someone motivated to commit a (gun) crime.

As commendable as it was for those civilians who took it upon themselves to take down the gunman, it's still shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

So what’s your solution, then? This is one of those scenarios that already show criminals don’t care to follow laws, even after the state denies them.

 

[TheCracker]

So what’s your solution, then? This is one of those scenarios that already show criminals don’t care to follow laws, even after the state denies them.

It's not for me to come up with a solution. How do you realistically solve a gun crime problem in a country where civilian gun ownership is so widespread and historically constitutionalized?

And now find the statistics for traffic deaths. Not saying gun deaths isn't a problem that needs to be fixed, not at all, but get your priorities straight. Gun deaths sound so bad but compared to horrible traffic accidents gun deaths are minuscule in the grand scheme of things. And I do not hear anybody ever crying out for improving traffic safety, I see no demonstrations, no debates, nothing.- One of the greatest dangers of the average citizen is to die in a traffic accident, yet people go crazy over shootings which statistically are on the very very bottom of possible causes for an untimely death.

And that's because it did become such a problem in the 50's and 60's that the government made moves to make travelling (and crashing...) in cars safer. Low and behold, deaths from traffic accidents started to reduce (per capita).

But any time the words 'gun control' get brought up, the NRA and it's powerful influence shut it down.

 

[rono_thomas]

It's not for me to come up with a solution. How do you realistically solve a gun crime problem in a country where civilian gun ownership is so widespread and historically constitutionalized?

Fundamentally the country collectively (majority) has to want change.

 

[KungFury]

Here is a good read that weighs in on most of this discussion. Mental illness, how guns are obtained, who what when how. Many case facts presented in what appears to be non biased.

http://psychiatryonline.org.psychiatryonline.org/doi/pdf/10.5555/appi.books.9781615371099

 

[Michael88]

It's not for me to come up with a solution. How do you realistically solve a gun crime problem in a country where civilian gun ownership is so widespread and historically constitutionalized?

A good start would be to find better solutions against ever increasing poverty, that would decrease home invasions and robberies and therefore gun violence. Next up: improve mental health care and medications. A person with a healthy mind is unlikely to want to kill a bunch of people.

There is lots of good ways to combat crime and improve health, this will automatically decrease crime and therefore gun violence. Unfortunately, those are much more complex solutions than banning guns, which is not really a solution but its something that puts the sheeple at ease and removes pressure from the politicians which are blamed for those deaths. And probably less costly too.

 

[Liquid]

Both my wife and I have lived in the US (my wife returned this weekend from a 2.5 year job assignment in Miami), and we both love it there, but there's something very broken in the culture.

>13,000 people killed with guns in 2017 to date. 2,300 of those under the age of 17. 900 of those since the Vegas massacre. (numbers exclude suicides)

There seems to be no motivation to either control the spread of guns, or if not, to understand and try to fix the fundamental causes.

It's sad that such a developed society, with (supposedly) such a strong religious culture, places such a low value on human life.

Those statistics are deeply worrying and speak for themselves. 900 since Las Vegas?

No matter what your position on gun control is, there is something very wrong in the sheer amount of incidents and number of casualties; often these perpetrators have little reasoning for the things they do and their own deaths don't help us understand any of it after-the-fact either.

 

[Stotty]

And now find the statistics for traffic deaths. Not saying gun deaths isn't a problem that needs to be fixed, not at all, but get your priorities straight. Gun deaths sound so bad but compared to horrible traffic accidents gun deaths are minuscule in the grand scheme of things. And I do not hear anybody ever crying out for improving traffic safety, I see no demonstrations, no debates, nothing.- One of the greatest dangers of the average citizen is to die in a traffic accident, yet people go crazy over shootings which statistically are on the very very bottom of possible causes for an untimely death.

(Also be aware that the largest part of the gun death statistics is made of suicides and police shootings. )

America has a problem with shootings when compared to other countries, thats an undeniable fact, but the media is inflating this completely out of proportion, compared to the other, much more urgent problems.

Data I found on line says c.40k road deaths in 2016 (up 7% on 2015)... so around double 2017 gun deaths, assuming they continue at their current rate for the remainder of the year.

Given this, I see no credibility in your 'shootings... statistically are on the very very bottom of possible causes for an untimely death' statement above - unless you can provide some data that substantiates this claim? What other causes of 'untimely death' come above getting murdered by a gun?

However, to even compare road deaths with gun deaths is burying your head in the sand... no one sets out with the intention of killing another person when they get behind the wheel of their car. A road death isn't murder.

 

[Jump_Ace]

Guns don't kill people. It's the person wielding them who's killing people.

People kill people, with guns.


Jerome

 

[Joey D]

And now find the statistics for traffic deaths. Not saying gun deaths isn't a problem that needs to be fixed, not at all, but get your priorities straight. Gun deaths sound so bad but compared to horrible traffic accidents gun deaths are minuscule in the grand scheme of things. And I do not hear anybody ever crying out for improving traffic safety, I see no demonstrations, no debates, nothing.- One of the greatest dangers of the average citizen is to die in a traffic accident, yet people go crazy over shootings which statistically are on the very very bottom of possible causes for an untimely death.

(Also be aware that the largest part of the gun death statistics is made of suicides and police shootings. )

America has a problem with shootings when compared to other countries, thats an undeniable fact, but the media is inflating this completely out of proportion, compared to the other, much more urgent problems.

The thing is, there's an assumed risk when you're driving that you could very well end up in an accident and dead. There isn't an assumed risk if you go to church since you don't think you'll be straight up murdered.

And I'm not sure why you think there isn't a massive push for traffic safety. It's typically done at the state level and some states take it extremely serious. Here in Utah they are often debating was to curtail traffic related deaths. We even passed the lowest alcohol limit in the country a couple months back to attempt to make the roads safer (never mind nearly 80% of the population doesn't drink in Utah). We also have lengthy debates at the state government level on how to fix all the issues going on with driving on the roads. Utah is often cited as the place with the worst drivers in the US and I don't question it in the slightest.

===

I'm very much pro-gun ownership rights. If you want to own one, you legally should be able to since it's granted as a right in out Constitution. However, I do think there needs to be a better vetting process, however I'm not sure what that should be. When I bought my handgun, I think it took a total of 20 minutes to do the paper work and I feel that it probably wasn't an adequate background check. I had to do more paperwork to get my driver's license than my gun.

There also needs to be better boarder security to stop counterfeit guns from entering the US. I know many of the illegal, unregistered guns in the US come from the Philippines so it seems like stopping the flow of those would cut down on the amount of illegal guns on the street. It won't stop it, but making it more difficult to get illegal guns and would raise the price of the ones already here substantially. This would prevent some would be criminals from getting their hands on them due to cost.

Past that, I'm not really sure what should be done, but I think our leaders should start having a conversation to figure it out. And not the conversation we typically have of "all guns are evil, let's ban them all" vs. "everyone should have a gun". There has to be a more reasonable solution there.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

Even with all the professional knowledge one quickly realizes that its not possible to label guns that way - there is no gun especially suited to attack people, every situation is different. Guess what comes closest is a machine gun used in the military, and those are strictly banned from civil ownership.

One could argue that magazine capacity is a factor. But what do you say about uncle Mikes typical boring 4 round capacity hunting rifle, it has a scope on it and you can use it to snipe somebody at 500 meters like Whitman did in the Texas tower shooting which was one of the worst shootings ever. But what about pistols? They are very easily concealable and can be smuggled into schools. In the end you can find reasons to ban everything.

Again, I could make a similar situation with cars, lets ban cars that are especially suited for speeding because they are especially dangerous for traffic safety. Sounds kind of reasonable, huh? But then you quickly realize that you do not need a Ferrari or a Koenigsegg to speed, you can do that with a 12 ton semi because in the end, all those vehicles share one thing: they drive, and they can all be used by nutcases to endanger people on the road. Do you ban all cars then? Or do you try to ensure only capable and mentally sound people operate vehicles?

As I mentioned before, both expert knowledge and statistics should be used. To take your automotive analogy: Yes, we ensure that only capable and mentally sound people can operate vehicles. The US should do the same for guns, but doesn't. Additionally, if you look at statistically what vehicles are most likely (per their rate of ownership) to be caught speeding, then I suspect we could define a few key profiles of cars which are likely to be used illegally, and thus regulate the common features of these vehicles. For instance, if it was found that cars with a power to weight ratio of under 4 kg/hp were 3 times more likely to be caught speeding, then it might be reasonable to suggest that operation of such high powered vehicles would require a special licence. Or, like I believe Japan has done, they could be limited to 112 mph.

The important thing is to remain objective and open minded. We're not going to be able to solve this problem without a lot of discussion and careful consideration, and we're not likely to be able to solve it without first being willing to enact stricter legislation on guns with the understanding that that legislation may not be perfect.

 

[Johnnypenso]

However, to even compare road deaths with gun deaths is burying your head in the sand... no one sets out with the intention of killing another person when they get behind the wheel of their car. A road death isn't murder.

Have you been watching the news lately?

 

[Stotty]

Have you been watching the news lately?

Hardly representative of the discussion!

 

[Com Fox]

People kill people, with guns.


Jerome

I can't agree with this logic at all.

Lets say I just killed someone with a sword, would you say the sword was also to blame?

Now to be fair, US Guns shouldn't be as easily obtainable as getting them at Wal-mart or Gun Shows but if this guy is one of the 34% to garner them illegally then no gun laws would've changed this.

 

[eran0004]

I can't agree with this logic at all.

Lets say I just killed someone with a sword, would you say the sword was also to blame?

Nobody is blaming the gun itself though. It's typically the gun laws that are blamed.

 

[Com Fox]

That I don't get with the "with guns" statement especially if, the gun was acquired illegally than blaming gun laws wouldn't matter.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Hardly representative of the discussion!

True but it's quickly becoming a common weapon of choice in mass murders.

Nobody is blaming the gun itself though. It's typically the gun laws that are blamed.

Gun laws don't kill people either.

 

[TetsuKobura]

Attacking a church, or ANY religious place for that matter, is the most cowardly thing you can ever do. To say it wasn't politically motivated, in my opinion, is total bull****. My heart hurts for this community, and mad props to the man with a RIFLE who came to the rescue and stopped this massacre from developing any worse.

I'm not going to get into a lot of details, but one day after I get my CHL, I'm going to go to my local gun store, purchase a handgun (and maybe a rifle, since I've always wanted my own), and put a long statement of how my purchase went, since I live in Texas. I'll see if these "background checks" the left so commonly refers to as "common sense gun control" are already good enough or if I feel they should be revised.

Also, if you have a domestic violence case on your record, you shouldn't even be having a gun anywhere near you, so how he got his weapons is a mystery to me.

Edit: Not sure how credible this verified account is, but this is just pure incompetence.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Attacking a church, or ANY religious place for that matter, is the most cowardly thing you can ever do. To say it wasn't politically motivated, in my opinion, is total bull****. My heart hurts for this community, and mad props to the man with a RIFLE who came to the rescue and stopped this massacre from developing any worse.

I'm not going to get into a lot of details, but one day after I get my CHL, I'm going to go to my local gun store, purchase a handgun (and maybe a rifle, since I've always wanted my own), and put a long statement of how my purchase went, since I live in Texas. I'll see if these "background checks" the left so commonly refers to as "common sense gun control" are already good enough or if I feel they should be revised.

Also, if you have a domestic violence case on your record, you shouldn't even be having a gun anywhere near you, so how he got his weapons is a mystery to me.

Edit: Not sure how credible this verified account is, but this is just pure incompetence.

There's no evidence of any political motive at this point. However, it seems his step mother-in-law was a member of that particular church and may have been in attendance that day.

 

[zzz_pt]

This is getting ridiculous. I don't even know what to say any more. This happens so often in the USA without anything changing that it looks like the people in charge (and of course a lot of Americans as well) just don't care about it. We all hear the same vacuous words over and over after each mass shooting but things just stay the same, people continue to be slaughtered and life goes on.

 

[TetsuKobura]

This could've been prevented had the Air Force actually reported this it seems:

It wasn't a gun issue, just an utter failure by the military for not bringing this to light.