- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
Mazda sticks with rotary power
- Thread starter Pebb
- 879 comments
- 71,613 views
Keef
Premium
- 25,166
- Dayton, OH
- GTP_KeefRacer
- GTP Keef
Drive either of them back to back with their competitors and you'll find out.I'm not so sure that's true, how do you explain the 6? Or the 3?
- 13,909
- Adelaide
- Neomone
This sounds a lot like the twaddle Alfa Romeo owners go on about when trying to explain what makes their cars so great.
What's actually going on is that they love their cars, but not for any particularly objective reasons. Your inability to explain clearly how "everything Mazda makes focuses on sport/fun/excitement" seems like that to me. That's how you feel about them, but you're unable to explain in objective terms why other people would see it the same way.
Because other people, looking at a bog standard Mazda 3 don't see sport, fun and excitement. They see a well made small car that is one of the better options in the marketplace.
So go ahead and explain yourself, instead of fobbing people off to go and do your work for you.
- 11,907
- Marin County
I actually couldn't believe how much inferior the build quality of a rather-twice-the-price 2012 Subaru WRX was compared to my 2. Everything on the inside of the car just looks and feels *cheap.* Simple things like the sound the door makes when it closes, my little 2 has a very solid feeling build quality, in my opinion.
May I try? About the 2:
Steering: By lightyears the most communicative electric power steering setup I've ever experienced. Not only is it feelsome, it is also the absolute perfect weight. Out of all the subcompact cars I drove, the 2 had by far the best steering. Also, the steering wheel, it's the perfect size and shape.
Brakes: Again, miles of feel. Despite having drums on the back, I've found that the brake progression is really stellar and you can really feel when the ABS is about to kick in. It makes driving hard into a corner and trail braking and heel and toe downshifting a delight.
Pedal Arrangement: As above, they are positioned perfectly for heel-toe downshifting. I found that not only was it difficult in some competitors, it was practically impossible in others. My brother's Focus ST, for example, the performance flagship of the Focus range, has pedals placed too far apart to easily heel-toe downshift.
Clutch: Just about perfectly weighted, although I find the take up point a little vague. Slight complaint #1.
Throttle: Probably the worst part of the car. The car doesn't have a sport mode, but I think the computer starts to detect when you want to play and it increases the throttle response. But when it's in its default "commuter" mode, the throttle response is awful. Really my only real complaint about the car.
Shifter: I've only ever driven 2 cars with a better shifter, and that was a Honda S2000 and an NC MX-5/Miata. Not only is the shifter placed high up and close to the wheel (like an EP3 Civic Type R) but it also makes a delightfully tactile "snickety-snick" was it moves through the gate. I find myself shifting more than necessary just because it's such a joy to use. Again, I have to contrast this with the competition because most other cars in the range have dull, lifeless, and rubbery shifters.
Seating position: Perfect. After driving the woefully poorly positioned Fiat 500 I next drove the 2. When I sat in the car my first thought was "this just feels right"
Engine: I won't try to hide the fact that the engine is the least powerful in the entire subcompact range available in North America at the time I bought my 2. Happily, the car is 100kg lighter than the next lightest offering so it genuinely felt the fastest of all of them. But it's not really the speed that matters, it's the character of the engine. It's a genuinely enthusiastic engine, and it actually sounds good. The Fit, Fiesta, 500, and Rio all sounded course and distant, but the 2's engine sounds properly alive.
Chassis: Simply wonderful. Utterly progressive and communicative. The tires have effectively zero grip and so getting the whole car to move about laterally is quite easy. It does this without being scary in any way as it's so progressive. I've never owned a car that I enjoy downshifting so hard into such tight corners in. I'll just heel-toe into first and fling it around 90 corners and it just loves it.
It is difficult, probably impossible, to quantify all these subjective things into an argument. You really have to feel them for yourself. Mazda is all about subtlety and how each part influences the whole. It's not any of the above things discreetly, it's how they all work together. Coming into a low speed corner, and braking heavily, feeling them on the verge of engaging ABS through the pedal, dabbing the clutch with your left foot while continuing to scrub off speed while simultaneously flicking the throttle for a downchange, while simultaneously pulling the gear lever through the gate into first, hearing the revs pop up from the little 1.5 and cutting through the apex of the turn, feeling the chassis start to glide over the surface, and then pulling out of the corner screaming to the redline (while not actually going very fast). These are things that Mazda just does better than anyone else. It's not the parts in particular, it's how they work in unison that makes them so compelling. This is just the most-pedestrian 2. You should drive an MX-5 or RX-8.
May I try? About the 2:
Steering: By lightyears the most communicative electric power steering setup I've ever experienced. Not only is it feelsome, it is also the absolute perfect weight. Out of all the subcompact cars I drove, the 2 had by far the best steering. Also, the steering wheel, it's the perfect size and shape.
Brakes: Again, miles of feel. Despite having drums on the back, I've found that the brake progression is really stellar and you can really feel when the ABS is about to kick in. It makes driving hard into a corner and trail braking and heel and toe downshifting a delight.
Pedal Arrangement: As above, they are positioned perfectly for heel-toe downshifting. I found that not only was it difficult in some competitors, it was practically impossible in others. My brother's Focus ST, for example, the performance flagship of the Focus range, has pedals placed too far apart to easily heel-toe downshift.
Clutch: Just about perfectly weighted, although I find the take up point a little vague. Slight complaint #1.
Throttle: Probably the worst part of the car. The car doesn't have a sport mode, but I think the computer starts to detect when you want to play and it increases the throttle response. But when it's in its default "commuter" mode, the throttle response is awful. Really my only real complaint about the car.
Shifter: I've only ever driven 2 cars with a better shifter, and that was a Honda S2000 and an NC MX-5/Miata. Not only is the shifter placed high up and close to the wheel (like an EP3 Civic Type R) but it also makes a delightfully tactile "snickety-snick" was it moves through the gate. I find myself shifting more than necessary just because it's such a joy to use. Again, I have to contrast this with the competition because most other cars in the range have dull, lifeless, and rubbery shifters.
Seating position: Perfect. After driving the woefully poorly positioned Fiat 500 I next drove the 2. When I sat in the car my first thought was "this just feels right"
Engine: I won't try to hide the fact that the engine is the least powerful in the entire subcompact range available in North America at the time I bought my 2. Happily, the car is 100kg lighter than the next lightest offering so it genuinely felt the fastest of all of them. But it's not really the speed that matters, it's the character of the engine. It's a genuinely enthusiastic engine, and it actually sounds good. The Fit, Fiesta, 500, and Rio all sounded course and distant, but the 2's engine sounds properly alive.
Chassis: Simply wonderful. Utterly progressive and communicative. The tires have effectively zero grip and so getting the whole car to move about laterally is quite easy. It does this without being scary in any way as it's so progressive. I've never owned a car that I enjoy downshifting so hard into such tight corners in. I'll just heel-toe into first and fling it around 90 corners and it just loves it.
It is difficult, probably impossible, to quantify all these subjective things into an argument. You really have to feel them for yourself. Mazda is all about subtlety and how each part influences the whole. It's not any of the above things discreetly, it's how they all work together. Coming into a low speed corner, and braking heavily, feeling them on the verge of engaging ABS through the pedal, dabbing the clutch with your left foot while continuing to scrub off speed while simultaneously flicking the throttle for a downchange, while simultaneously pulling the gear lever through the gate into first, hearing the revs pop up from the little 1.5 and cutting through the apex of the turn, feeling the chassis start to glide over the surface, and then pulling out of the corner screaming to the redline (while not actually going very fast). These are things that Mazda just does better than anyone else. It's not the parts in particular, it's how they work in unison that makes them so compelling. This is just the most-pedestrian 2. You should drive an MX-5 or RX-8.
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- 9,401
- Western Sydney
- mustafur
Compared to a Toyota Corolla or Hyundai I30 I would say, the seats, steering wheel, paddle shifters, driving position and hydrolic steering kind of give that away.
Of course if you compare it to everything on the market it would be much closer to the white good side of the market.
Also you bet your bottom tooth Alfa Romeo people say that because it's damn true, ever hear an Alfa engine sing, you can tell where there focus lies.
Its the same thing with the 3 big German brands BMW, Audi and Merc.
If you drive them all for a period of time they have all clearly taken different directions on their version of what makes a great car(Driving, Quality and comfort).
Thats Because Subaru is probably the worst company today when it comes to Interior quality and its clearly gotten worse since the early 2000s.
I used to own a 2003 Impreza RS(the one after the Bug eye) and the dash had soft touch plastics leather touch points and comfortable Bucket seat with reasonable thickness, the impreza that replaced it had the Dash turned into a hard brittle scratch able plastic, reduced leather quality and thiner much more harder Bucket seats.
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- 11,907
- Marin County
See revised post above.
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
I have. They're worse than the modern equivalent Fords (the kind of pseudo-prestige budget brand that Mazda fit into), and worse than the equivalent Volkswagens (the ones that arguably start above them in most qualities). That's in terms of handling and build quality... in terms of spec all Japanese cars in this saloon class generally come loaded with everything at a very low extra cost.
They're marginally better than the equivalent Nissans and much worse than the equivalent Hondas. In that market it's a strange sell, it'll go well for much older drivers (as Japanese saloons generally do) and the new 2.2 engine has impressive early-life specs and is already tipped to win the Caravan Club's towcar award, but you certainly can't argue that they're either exciting or sporty.
The difficulty is that the 6 (like Honda's Accord) is sold into the bottom end of the BMW/Audi/Merc saloon market where it simply doesn't compete in terms of image, handling, sportiness, or build. But brilliant ICE.
- 9,401
- Western Sydney
- mustafur
Americans don't understand, they don't receive many dynamic cars and the ones that do are watered down for their market.
They see options and styling as all that matters and Interior quality and Build as gimmicks.
Thats why basically every american car is Overstyled, unrefined, overly optioned without thinking about function, built like cardboard and has no Driver involvement or dynamics what so ever.
Of course they are finally start to wake up(Cadillac for example has now sorted their Dynamics and handling but the rest of the car is still miles from the Germans).
They see options and styling as all that matters and Interior quality and Build as gimmicks.
Thats why basically every american car is Overstyled, unrefined, overly optioned without thinking about function, built like cardboard and has no Driver involvement or dynamics what so ever.
Of course they are finally start to wake up(Cadillac for example has now sorted their Dynamics and handling but the rest of the car is still miles from the Germans).
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CodeRedR51
Premium
- 55,319
- United States
I'll disagree with everything you've said. Mazda is certainly not a "psuedo-prestige budget brand" and certainly beat the likes of VW in at least reliability. (this coming from a GTi owner) I would rather have a MS3 than my GTi but it was out of my budget. Also, as someone that works for Nissan, I also wouldn't say they are marginally better than an equivalent Nissan, more like miles above it. I love Nissan to death, but their head is just not in the game right now. However, the fact that Nissan is eating away at Honda's market share doesn't make Honda much, if any better.
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
Fair enough
Here's a thought... maybe Mazda aim for a better market than they do in the UK?
- 11,907
- Marin County
Fair enough
More like the UK shouldn't be such brand snobs in general. I remember reading the review section in the back of Top Gear magazine once, and the little quip they had about Mazda amounted to something like "Genuinely good cars, but the badge isn't good enough."
Your post is very 2005. But go ahead and generalize 320 million people into your idea of what an American is.
- 9,401
- Western Sydney
- mustafur
Nah its very much 2014, back in 2005 your cars had no style what so ever, and quality cars don't even come close to your best sellers.
im not generalizing here im just going by what Americans buy compared to other nations.
UK for example: their best selling Sedan is the BMW 3 Series, which for that to be in america sounds like it wouldn't happen in a million years.
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
That's how the market is. If I were looking for a new car I'd be shopping above the Mazda/Nissan/Honda range.
Bear in mind that the manufacturers' own advertising and product placement has a lot to do with that. I'm quite prepared to believe that in the US Mazdas are marketed differently or to a higher end market.
And I'm no brand snob, I owned a Jeep once*
*And once only. Blimey.
- 40,878
I'd say more like 1995.
- 11,907
- Marin County
If you understood that the UK and US are vastly different geographically, culturally, and urbanistically you would probably realize that a BMW 3 series makes absolutely zero sense (even if it was the best car available, even within it's class, which it isn't) for the overwhelming majority of people who would even be able to comfortably afford one.
- 9,401
- Western Sydney
- mustafur
I do understand that, that was my original point.
UK focus's more on quality because there cars are smaller, meaning smaller premium vehicles tend to be in their range of cars they would buy, compared to a Bigger More mainstream model.
Most global platformed cars have been modified for the American market to focus more on comfort then Dynamics and handling as the US Market is more interested in this(plenty of cars to prove my point on this such as current Ford Fusion/Mondeo in Europe).
Options are high on cars but at minimal cost so functionality is compromised for the sake of price.
Also US gets much lower end models of the same vehicles compared to other countries(not all but generally the cheapest trims they get are lower then other countries cheapest trims).
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- 11,907
- Marin County
"Americans don't understand, they don't receive many dynamic cars and the ones that do are watered down for their market."
Show me some examples of dynamic cars that Australia receives that the US doesn't. I would be willing to bet that most of the cars we don't get are far, far from dynamic.
Because I know what you are trying to do. You are trying to setup an argument hinged around the concept that "no American can offer commentary or authority on dynamic cars because they don't know what they are." Which, of course, is false.
- 9,401
- Western Sydney
- mustafur
-Peugeot 208 GTI
-Renault Clio sport
-Renault Megane Sport
-Citroen DS3 DSport
-Alfa Romeo 159 V6
-Skoda Fabia vRS
-Skoda Octavia vRS
-Ford Focus RS
-VW Polo GTI
the list goes on for quite awhile but these are just hatchbacks and cars sold Now or recently, we got the previous versions of all these cars too(except the Focus RS).
- 11,907
- Marin County
French and Italian cars that were banished from our shores (and rightly so) for absolutely appalling build quality and reliability. My family had FIVE Peugeots in the early 90s and they were all dreadful. One of them even burned to the ground. I suppose that doesn't speak greatly of my family, but we are French and they were attractive and comfortable cars with an anti-BMW sense of class. Dynamic, US market or not, a Peugeot 505 was not. I understand that French cars have come a long way, but they are a hard sell in the US. Also, Citoen has historically been allllll about comfort and has only recently (and regrettably) started trying to 'dynamicise' their range. Shame.
Who gives a **** about Skoda? They are badge engineered VW's with absolutely no brand cache in the Western Hemisphere. I did like their dance group at the Paris Auto Show though:
We get the Focus ST, we'll probably get the next Focus RS.
Also, don't think these products are completely and totally designed by Europeans. I have one friend (100% American, Cornell University Educated) who recently got a job in the drive-train department of Ferrari. Another is an engineer for Force India F1. It's a global world.
- 9,401
- Western Sydney
- mustafur
See this is your problem you think im attacking America as a whole, I was explaining exactly what cars Americans buy on Average.
it's clear your too Butthurt to understand my argument anymore so there is no point continuing this(I mean you asked me about cars that are dynamic then when I list them you attack their quality instead when you realise I could list some).
An American designing a Ferrari or a Bmw or a Mclaren has zero relevance to anything i have said.
Also keep in mind your commenting on cars you haven't touched smelled or even seen in person.
it's clear your too Butthurt to understand my argument anymore so there is no point continuing this(I mean you asked me about cars that are dynamic then when I list them you attack their quality instead when you realise I could list some).
An American designing a Ferrari or a Bmw or a Mclaren has zero relevance to anything i have said.
Also keep in mind your commenting on cars you haven't touched smelled or even seen in person.
- 5,204
- Finland
Pretty much everyone in Finland, considering that it has been the best selling car here for the last 5 years.
But if you say that there are Skoda that's dynamic choice, I'd probably laugh.
- 11,907
- Marin County
I took that video at the Paris autoshow so I've seen every car you mentioned.
I'm not butthurt, I'm merely trying to argue with you. This thread is about Mazda, and you original claim seems to be that Americans can not comment on dynamic cars because they don't understand them. Perhaps many don't, but the one that is typing at you does, so I disagree with you.
Mazdas are damn fun cars. From a purely objective perspective, this is hard, if not impossible to convey. They are wonderful in the subjective subtlety and feel. While I can't honestly compare a Mazda 2 to its Citroen or Renault equivalent I can compare it to other cars I've driven. SA22C, FC3S and FD3S RX-7s, Corvette Z06, Alfa Romeo 159, Civic Type R (US version is Si) S2000 and many others. I greatly prefer dynamic cars. I feel I have some authority to comment.
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- 9,401
- Western Sydney
- mustafur
I took that video at the Paris autoshow.
I'm not butthurt, I'm merely trying to argue with you. This thread is about Mazda, and you original claim seems to be that Americans can not comment on dynamic cars because they don't understand them. Perhaps many don't, but the one that is typing at you does, so I disagree with you.
Mazdas are damn fun cars. From a purely objective perspective, this is hard, if not impossible to convey. They are wonderful in the subjective subtlety and feel.
I understand where Mazda stands but all im saying is due to the lack of choice that America has on dynamic cars that would compete with it, your standard of whats dynamic for that class of car is lower.
that is all.
I have driven Mazda 2 recently(yesterday infact) and I liked it especially compared to any Toyota or Hyundai, but thats basically what i would stop at.
America doesn't have many choices outside of Japan, US and Korea when it comes to Compact and Subcompact cars.
- 11,907
- Marin County
Top Gear:
Evo:
Pretty good praise for a standard variant of a super-mini, I think.
Mazda, regrettably, has never done a "hot" version of the 2 in the same way they have the 3. I think a 150hp 2 would be utterly fantastic. Maybe the new generation will deliver us an MS2/MPS
Against other standard models, Mazda emphasizes the sort of 'joy' of driving more than most marques I think. Most car companies can and do develop special fun versions of their ordinary stock, but I don't think many can rival Mazda's ordinary lineup for fun factor. I think that's what me and Keef are trying to say.
Evo:
Pretty good praise for a standard variant of a super-mini, I think.
Mazda, regrettably, has never done a "hot" version of the 2 in the same way they have the 3. I think a 150hp 2 would be utterly fantastic. Maybe the new generation will deliver us an MS2/MPS
Against other standard models, Mazda emphasizes the sort of 'joy' of driving more than most marques I think. Most car companies can and do develop special fun versions of their ordinary stock, but I don't think many can rival Mazda's ordinary lineup for fun factor. I think that's what me and Keef are trying to say.
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
Fair enought (again)
It does make me wonder if you get better models on average (the US car market is pretty fierce, after all) and if Mazda aim for a better market than they seem to in the UK.A good way to tell where they settle in a market is to look around an office car park. At my offices you will only see one Mazda, that belongs to the cleaner. The people who choose small hatches don't choose Mazdas, people who choose £21k+ saloons certainly don't.
- 11,907
- Marin County
Fair enought (again)
A good way to tell where they settle in a market is to look around an office car park. At my offices you will only see one Mazda, that belongs to the cleaner. The people who choose small hatches don't choose Mazdas, people who choose £21k+ saloons certainly don't.
Mazdas are fairly rare in the states as well. I notice every time I see a 2 because they are not common. But Mazda has never been about being a large-volume manufacturer. They only *just* started building cars outside of Japan. I think Mazda (it's executives and engineers) find fulfillment in the cars themselves, not the market share. I hope so at least. I would honestly rather look back on a career and think, "we made some really great things" rather than "we sold a lot of things." It's an engineering-led company (and always has been) which is a rare thing in the automotive industry these days.
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
They're not rare here by any means; they're just not seen as being in a very "classy" market.
I should add that RX cars and the 5 are seen differently, but then they're completely different from the rest of the ranges.
- 87,591
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
No, they're right there with the rest of the Japanese marques (and Ford and Vauxhall). And the French ones too. But that's got nothing to do with the pretty solid industry impression that the Mazda in each sector is amongst the best cars in the class for driving enjoyment and handling.
As I'm sure you know, I write for a site that conducts metareviews and I have to collect those reviews myself. The story is the same over and over again in every case - the 2 (even the current Fiesta-based one before the SkyActiv replacement), the 3, the 6 and the CX-5 are all ranked with the very top of the class for handling (and yet also for ride). Even the old, previous-generation 3-based Mazda 5 gets the same plaudits from a number of outlets, though in that instance I don't agree with them at all as I found it pretty numb - but maybe I got a bad one. I've just had a Mazda 6 Tourer on loan for a week and that was so much fun to drive down bits of Wales that I forgot I had back seat passengers until they requested a brief spew break... Whoops.
It's not an upmarket brand at all - they're slogging it out with the Fords of this world primarily (they're showing their old bosses what for), but also Honda and Nissan, Kia and Hyundai, Vauxhall and Peugeot. But if you plonked me in the middle of nowhere with a "fun road" between me and the outside world and lined up equivalent models of the eight manufacturers - hey, let's chuck in Volkswagen, Skoda, SEAT and Renault too - I'd pick up the Mazda keys, whatever model it was. I suspect I'd have a fight on with a whole bunch of journos too, with some others having a scrap over the Peugeot and SEAT keys.
- 11,907
- Marin County
I don't think there is as much of a fixation on perceived class in the US. Which shouldn't really be shocking if you compare our history to that of the UK.
We are a bunch of agricultural protestants at heart, after all. That's not to say that class perception doesn't exist here, and it's not to say a BMW isn't indeed a classier auto than a Mazda, it's more that it doesn't really matter so much. I've known very wealthy people who buy cheap/economical cars for commuting.
