Mazda sticks with rotary power

[eSZee]

I have. They're worse than the modern equivalent Fords (the kind of pseudo-prestige budget brand that Mazda fit into), and worse than the equivalent Volkswagens (the ones that arguably start above them in most qualities). That's in terms of handling and build quality... in terms of spec all Japanese cars in this saloon class generally come loaded with everything at a very low extra cost.

I've read several mx-5 owners mention that the sensation of driving they get in a cx-5 is very similar to that of a GTI. Now, is that good for mazda or bad for VW?

 

[TenEightyOne]

I've read several mx-5 owners mention that the sensation of driving they get in a cx-5 is very similar to that of a GTI. Now, is that good for mazda or bad for VW?

I've never driven a CX5 but I can assure you there is no similarity between driving a front-wheel drive GTi or a rear-wheel drive MX-5.

 

[niky]

Good for Mazda.

The CX5 is more fun and giggles on a twisty road than any other tall crossover out there.

There are grippier crossovers, there are more powerful crossovers, and there are crossovers that are both grippier and more powerful, as well as having cleverer all-wheel drive systems.

But the CX-5 is still more fun. If they allowed sideways shots in the magazine, we'd have gotten a bunch of them the last time out.

 

[Imari]

You should drive an MX-5 or RX-8.

I have. I own an MX5 and have done for years, and I've spent at least 6 months test driving RX8s to try and find a good one.

Those ARE sports cars, and are some of the best available at what they do.

All the things you described make a car good for everyone, not just for sporty drivers. They're a mark of a good small car. Nobody enjoys a car with a mushy clutch and brakes, a gear shift like an oar, a steering wheel like a truck, and handling like a circus float.

 

[Keef]

This sounds a lot like the twaddle Alfa Romeo owners go on about when trying to explain what makes their cars so great.

What's actually going on is that they love their cars, but not for any particularly objective reasons. Your inability to explain clearly how "everything Mazda makes focuses on sport/fun/excitement" seems like that to me. That's how you feel about them, but you're unable to explain in objective terms why other people would see it the same way.

Because other people, looking at a bog standard Mazda 3 don't see sport, fun and excitement. They see a well made small car that is one of the better options in the marketplace.

So go ahead and explain yourself, instead of fobbing people off to go and do your work for you.

I have. They're worse than the modern equivalent Fords (the kind of pseudo-prestige budget brand that Mazda fit into), and worse than the equivalent Volkswagens (the ones that arguably start above them in most qualities). That's in terms of handling and build quality... in terms of spec all Japanese cars in this saloon class generally come loaded with everything at a very low extra cost.

They're marginally better than the equivalent Nissans and much worse than the equivalent Hondas. In that market it's a strange sell, it'll go well for much older drivers (as Japanese saloons generally do) and the new 2.2 engine has impressive early-life specs and is already tipped to win the Caravan Club's towcar award, but you certainly can't argue that they're either exciting or sporty.

The difficulty is that the 6 (like Honda's Accord) is sold into the bottom end of the BMW/Audi/Merc saloon market where it simply doesn't compete in terms of image, handling, sportiness, or build. But brilliant ICE.

Americans don't understand, they don't receive many dynamic cars and the ones that do are watered down for their market.

They see options and styling as all that matters and Interior quality and Build as gimmicks.

Thats why basically every american car is Overstyled, unrefined, overly optioned without thinking about function, built like cardboard and has no Driver involvement or dynamics what so ever.

Of course they are finally start to wake up(Cadillac for example has now sorted their Dynamics and handling but the rest of the car is still miles from the Germans).

This must be the difference between the American and European/Australian car markets.

I don't know what the hell kind of Mazdas you guys are getting but the cars we get are consistently the most interesting in their market segments. While the old 2 is nothing special and I have no experience with the new one, the 3, 6 and CX5 all have the sportiest credentials in their segment, along with currently the most beautiful, engaging exterior design and some of the best interior quality as well. They are priced near the top of the segment but that is part of Mazda's strategy, as they're meant to be the nicest option. As a result of Mazda's marketing, Americans see them as chock full of sporty personality which is a lineage that the other brands can't really cater to anymore. The Ford Fusion is an excellent car and offers much more power than the 6, as do all the other cars currently, but when comparing the 4 cylinder models the 6 is the lightest, most efficient and best driving car of them all. The 3 especially makes a laughing stock out of everything except maybe the newest Focus.

I new 2 isn't on the market here yet. The CX9 still sells but is due for a redesign soon. The 5 sells like hotcakes despite not having any advertisement because it's a genius little car. And obviously the Miata is the philosophical center of Mazda which everyone in the US is familiar with.

 

[TenEightyOne]

This must be the difference between the American and European/Australian car markets.

I genuinely think that's part of what it is. @Famine's write-up a few posts ago is interesting, he actually puts them "up there with Ford and Vauxhall", his experience across those ranges is greater than mine (and professional) so I'll take his word for that, I'd still put Mazda above Vauxhall from my own experience of both, but that still doesn't make Mazda that marque of sportiness/distinction that Americans seem to perceive it as (in my interpretation, at least).

I'm not down on Mazdas by any means - I'd have another MX-5 right now if my bloody keyboard would fit in it

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I genuinely think that's part of what it is. @Famine's write-up a few posts ago is interesting, he actually puts them "up there with Ford and Vauxhall", his experience across those ranges is greater than mine (and professional) so I'll take his word for that, I'd still put Mazda above Vauxhall from my own experience of both, but that still doesn't make Mazda that marque of sportiness/distinction that Americans seem to perceive it as (in my interpretation, at least).

I'm not down on Mazdas by any means - I'd have another MX-5 right now if my bloody keyboard would fit in it

I'm just curious here. What brand, universally speaking, would you say is more sporty than Mazda? I'm talking EVERY SINGLE CAR that the company makes, not just the good ones. It certainly isn't VW...

 

[Famine]

he actually puts them "up there with Ford and Vauxhall"

Not quite, nor is that a phrase I used.

In terms of market sector, Mazda competes directly with Peugeot, SEAT, Skoda and Honda. There are models which go head to head with Volkswagen (CX-5 vs Tiguan) despite VW occupying a slightly more premium sector, and there are models which go head to head with Kia, Hyundai, Nissan (again CX-5, oddly - a lot of the crossovers hit the same sort of markets depending on the trim level), but their primary competition is those four. Vauxhall is a bit of a mess, but still sells extremely well in the UK, so while the equivalent Mazda may be noticeably better than the Corsa, Astra or Insignia, the pricing isn't so much different and the Vauxhall will sell more. The same applies to Ford, only Ford isn't a mess any more.

In terms of perceived quality, I'd say that the market looks roughly like:

Audi - Volkswagen - Mazda - Skoda - Ford - Honda - Nissan - SEAT - Peugeot - Vauxhall - Kia - Hyundai​

And that's being kind on Vauxhall. The price list would be approximately the same order, conveniently, though it depends on the specific model. But Mazda and Peugeot would be nearer the top of the list in the "interesting to drive" list too (along with Ford), while also holding their station when it comes to ride quality (along with VW).


Mazda is a mainstream brand, rather than a premium or emerging one, but occupies a position as the mainstream alternative to the mainstream brands. Sales are never going to take significant chunks out of the mainstream brands unless they go more run-of-the-mill or bring quality up as a USP. They tried the former already (see: Mazda 121, 323, 626) and the latter is expensive.

Personally I hope they keep going as the motor industry's best-kept secret...

 

[JR98]

I'm just curious here. What brand, universally speaking, would you say is more sporty than Mazda? I'm talking EVERY SINGLE CAR that the company makes, not just the good ones. It certainly isn't VW...

I'd say Lotus, they have the Elise, Evora, Esprit (Not sure if they still make that) and the Exige.

 

[CodeRedR51]

I'd say Lotus, they have the Elise, Evora, Esprit (Not sure if they still make that) and the Exige.

Normal cars.

 

[JR98]

Normal cars.

Right, well I quite like the current Mazda's, except the MX-5, something about it, anyway, Audi's look pretty sporty, especially the A5 and TT. I'd say Audi if we're talking normal cars. If you asked me in 2011 I would have said BMW, but since then I have hated the look of BMW's. They look too modern

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Right, well I quite like the current Mazda's, except the MX-5, something about it, anyway, Audi's look pretty sporty, especially the A5 and TT. I'd say Audi if we're talking normal cars. If you asked me in 2011 I would have said BMW, but since then I have hated the look of BMW's. They look too modern

I think this thread has slightly derailed. Looking sporty was not the question. *Feeling* sporty was. Audi's are generally high quality, well made, and classy cars, but I'm not so certain on their sporting credentials. I don't have much experience with them though.

 

[JR98]

I think this thread has slightly derailed. Looking sporty was not the question. *Feeling* sporty was. Audi's are generally high quality, well made, and classy cars, but I'm not so certain on their sporting credentials. I don't have much experience with them though.

A friend of mine owns a 2003 Audi A4 2.0 TFSI and that feels pretty sporty, although another friend has a 2005 BMW 320Si M Sport and it feels even sportier

 

[TenEightyOne]

(Famine) actually puts them "up there with Ford and Vauxhall", his experience across those ranges is greater than mine (and professional) so I'll take his word for that

Not quite, nor is that a phrase I used.

No, they're right there with the rest of the Japanese marques (and Ford and Vauxhall)

Apologies, the addition of "up" was my own colloquial addition, and a mistaken one.

Mazda is a mainstream brand, rather than a premium or emerging one, but occupies a position as the mainstream alternative to the mainstream brands. Sales are never going to take significant chunks out of the mainstream brands unless they go more run-of-the-mill or bring quality up as a USP. They tried the former already (see: Mazda 121, 323, 626) and the latter is expensive.

There's certainly a division between their sportscars and their "normal" cars (for want of a better expression). I don't find that the ride in a Mazda lasts into its second hand years although the quality, as I've said, is Japanese (some nice touches, well specced, electrically very robust). And I like the 6 a lot, just not as much as the Mondeo and nowhere near as much as the A4... but soooo much more than any current Vauxhall (the new Astra looks nice but is horrible inside and feels unbalanced to handle, at least the 1.4 I just drove).

I don't know what USP Mazda actually go for, their marketing is a little grey-haired in the UK, or so it feels to me at least.

 

[mustafur]

I'm just curious here. What brand, universally speaking, would you say is more sporty than Mazda? I'm talking EVERY SINGLE CAR that the company makes, not just the good ones. It certainly isn't VW...

well thats kind of stupid question, BMW would be a simple answer but to say the MX-5 is the same type of car as the other Mazdas would be clearly wrong.

just like saying the M3 is the same as every other BMW.

VW Hot hatches are clearly a step above any Mazda non RWD though, New Golf R is probably better then any hatchback on the market right now.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

well thats kind of stupid question, BMW would be a simple answer but to say the MX-5 is the same type of car as the other Mazdas would be clearly wrong.

just like saying the M3 is the same as every other BMW.

VW Hot hatches are clearly a step above any Mazda non RWD though, New Golf R is probably better then any hatchback on the market right now.

But I'm not talking about *hot* versions of cars. I'm talking about normal versions. A standard, base model 3 is probably a more fun car than a standard, base model golf.

 

[mustafur]

But I'm not talking about *hot* versions of cars. I'm talking about normal versions. A standard, base model 3 is probably a more fun car than a standard, base model golf.

But thats apples to oranges, how does a brand get a sporty reputation if they don't make hot cars?

Basically all im saying with Mazda is they are like a BMW lite.

Not as dynamic as a BMW but more dynamic then its direct competition on lower models, probably even Audi and Mercedes as that's not their brand focus on non S-line, AMG Sport versions.


Anything more is false, and basically Mazda D Riding.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

But thats apples to oranges, how does a brand get a sporty reputation if they don't make hot cars?

How is that apples to oranges? A base 3 and a base golf are direct competitors.

The point is that Mazda's entire range feels *sporty* regardless of whether they are hotted-up version or base model strippers. It's the entire reason their slogan is zoom-zoom-zoom.

 

[mustafur]

How is that apples to oranges? A base 3 and a base golf are direct competitors.

The point is that Mazda's entire range feels *sporty* regardless of whether they are hotted-up version or base model strippers. It's the entire reason their slogan is zoom-zoom-zoom.

Tbh the MS3 in the previous gen was Miles behind the GTI dynamicly.

And Reviews I've seen atleast here and in Europe suggest the Base model golf and Mazda 3 are very Matched Dynamicly, the Mazda is just not as Refined.

 

[TenEightyOne]

How is that apples to oranges? A base 3 and a base golf are direct competitors.

Perhaps that's marketing... in the UK I think Mazda would love the 3 to be seen in the same market as the "class leading Golf" (not my words but the following source). I certainly think that in the UK Mazda are chasing VW on brand image rather than the other way around.

That said I was surprised at how close the Mazda came to the Golf in part this review. Apologies to all GTP writing staff for whom this is "the wrong publication"

 

[Keef]

Base model US-market Volkswagens are turds. In the current era, what I'll call "post-MK5 Golf", VW really cheaped out on the Passat and Jetta. They actually made them cheaper on purpose, to gain more market share. Now they're no better than a Toyota Corolla or Camry.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

From above about the Golf:

Although it’s the more expensive choice here, it’s as cheap to run and has stronger residuals. It’s also more practical, boasts a softer ride and is very nearly as good to drive.

Keyword: nearly as good to drive [as the Mazda]

And about the Mazda:

The new Mazda 3 is great value, fun to drive and surprisingly cost-effective to run. It’s also fast, impressively refined and extremely well put together

Keyword: fun to drive

That's it. That's all I'm trying to say. The Mazda is more fun. I've never tried to argue its better value, better quality, better refinement or anything. It's simply and honestly fun. All Mazdas are. I challenge anyone to find a road test of any recent Mazda where the reviewer doesn't say it's fun. Mazdas are fun. The end.

Offhand comment about the article. I think it's euro-biased

Edit: Now I know it isn't the most reputable auto-rag, the euro-centricity of it is palpable.

Refinement
Engineers have worked to give the new 3 class-leading refinement – and they’ve largely succeeded. At idle, the smooth, free-revving 2.2-litre diesel is barely audible, registering 44dB on our sound meter. By comparison, the clattery Golf recorded a relatively high 48dB.

But on the move, the Mazda’s advantage is eroded. While engine noise and wind noise are well suppressed, there’s a lot of tyre roar. As a result, it showed exactly the same readings at 30mph and 70mph as the refined Golf.

So the Mazda is quieter at rest and the same as the Golf on the move. Advantage Mazda, surely? But somehow the Golf is ranked as more refined? Based on what metrics? The only things in the article that the Golf is actually objectively better at is a more practical storage area and 'better residuals.' The Mazda has a better powertrain, is better to drive, looks better, is cheaper, and just as well made. That's all according to the article itself. I'd buy the Mazda.

Edit 2: The comments are telling:

Unfortunately, Autoexpress' bias towards VAG is becoming so blatantly obvious they need to address it. The Seat wins over the 308 with the narrowest of margins. The Golf wins over the Mazda 3 with the narrowest of margins.

When most cars shade it, it's because of better handling. In this case, the Golf shades it because of softer damping - quite to the contrary of what you normally do.

As a result, I find your group tests including VAG products almost redundant. The tests without VAG products seem more objective and worthy of a read. It truly is a sad story. I've driven both cars, and in my opinion, I would easily choose the Mazda.

Concerning luggage space; the Mazda has a full size spare wheel that detracts from space. The Golf includes the compartment under the floor in it's official litres, unless I'm mistaken. If you look at both trunks, the Mazda looks to have the more practical space as it is longer but not as high - or is it just about numbers to AE?

They didn't even get the numbers right. The numbers they use to claim that the mazda sedan/saloon has more cargo space is from an old press release where the cargo volume was a typo. The 3 actually has 20 cubic feet of space in the back, 33% more than the golf.

It is always the same with Auto Express and the UK in general, you guys dislike anything Japanese, and love German or French, you are a strange lot...The Mazda 3 is a far better looking car, has way more standard safety features, has won over the Golf in other comparo's in every other country, except the UK.
But no you cant call it truthfully, also it is interesting to see latest JD Power survey in Australia on new car reliability over past 4 years of ownership, Mazda was on top as was all other Japanese brands and VW was on the bottom....funny that.

I wonder if they even drove the cars?

 

[niky]

to say the MX-5 is the same type of car as the other Mazdas would be clearly wrong.

Of course.

Because the Mazda6 has always had better steering feel than the ND MX-5.



-

A select number of Volkswagens drive nicely. The Beetle... it's a meh for me. It's competent, but lower end variants just don't have that same feel as a 3. Same goes with the Jetta (though I do like the Jetta, it just doesn't inspire the same kind of shenanigans a rental-level 3 does... the new one, mind you. I never liked the first generation 3). Polo? Don't even ask. The Mazda2 just slays it.

Volkswagen has some great handling cars, but in terms of driving feel, they do miss that certain something that makes Mazdas addictive.

 

[yabiggoose]

Loving the conversation about Mazda using rotaries. 10/10 would read again.

 

[mustafur]

@Eunos_Cosmo the DB rating was on deisel motors both of which im prrtty sure you don't even get, it also highlights the Golfs interior insulates the sound better, VW Deisels are honestly terrible as they are worse on fuel compared to competition and are louder, defintely something the French are better at.

Want a less Bias Australian review with an actual video here: http://m.drive.com.au/new-car-comparison/mazda3-v-ford-focus-v-volkswagen-golf-20140221-334u1.html

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Loving the conversation about Mazda using rotaries. 10/10 would read again.

Well it's pretty clear that Mazda won't be using rotaries any more so I think this is more or less the Mazda discussion thread.

@Eunos_Cosmo the DB rating was on deisel motors both of which im prrtty sure you don't even get, it also highlights the Golfs interior insulates the sound better, VW Deisels are honestly terrible as they are worse on fuel compared to competition and are louder, defintely something the French are better at.

Want a less Bias Australian review with an actual video here: http://m.drive.com.au/new-car-comparison/mazda3-v-ford-focus-v-volkswagen-golf-20140221-334u1.html

So VAG builds terrible diesels and cover up the problem by using lots of heavy sound insulation and that somehow qualifies as refined? You aren't making a good case for the VW.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Loving the conversation about Mazda using rotaries. 10/10 would read again.

Excellent. Thank you for letting us know. I think that part of the news is about 7 years old though

As it turns out the only on-road Mazda rotary (that I know of) is the RX-8 with its engine whose roots lie in VW

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Excellent. Thank you for letting us know. I think that part of the news is about 7 years old though

As it turns out the only on-road Mazda rotary (that I know of) is the RX-8 with its engine whose roots lie in VW

The Germans couldn't figure out how to make it work.

 

[mustafur]

Now if Mazda put some kind of rotory Hybrid in a Mazda 3 or similar that would be something people would be lining up for.

 

[mustafur]

So VAG builds terrible diesels and cover up the problem by using lots of heavy sound insulation and that somehow qualifies as refined? You aren't making a good case for the VW.

No because that's not an Issue on the petrols, the insulation stays the same across the range.

At the end of the day you drive them both it will be obvious instantly what car is more refined.