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Mazda sticks with rotary power
- Thread starter Pebb
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Well, the latest CX-5 is all new, whereas this is just a facelift of the CX-3. And the 9's a bit too big and bulky to be handsome for me. Even pre-facelift I thought the CX-3 was among the better looking crossovers of any sort.
Funny how the old CX-7 doesn't look as sharp as it once did. Shows how far Mazda's design language has come on since then.
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- Rallywgn81
The mazda3 is the same way. The first gen wasnt bad. Fully disclosure, i drive one. The second gen was hidious though. The front end looked really awkward. But when they dropped the Ford chassis and went to the skyactiv platform, man did it get good looking.
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I really wish Ford had not killed Mazda's V6 engine. The KL series were absolute gems and I can't help but think how awesome a new Mazda3 with a 2.5L Skyactiv-KL and a 6 speed manual could have been. On the other hand, it's probably unlikely that Mazda would have kept the V6 around in the present day...but a guy can dream.
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I did ask a couple of Mazda engineers recently whether the Skyactiv-X tech meant they had wiggle room to bring back engine layouts other than inline fours. I was told it hadn't really crossed their minds, even though the tech would make them pretty efficient, but it's highly unlikely as they're able to hit their internal power/torque/smoothness etc goals with a four-cylinder now.
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Mazda Officially Announces the Return of the Rotary Engine As Range Extenders for Electric Cars
Press Release
Patent
Wankel Strengths:
-Power/size ratio
-Low weight
-Excellent Packaging potential
-Smoothness
-Few moving parts
-Simple/straight forward to rebuild
-Extremely reliable in controlled environments (constant load & rpm)
Wankel Weaknesses
-Lack of torque
-Non-steady state fuel efficiency
-Lack of reliability outside of controlled environments (some jack-wagon money shifting it to 11,000rpm, aftermarket turbos, etc)
By using the rotary as a generator, Mazda has effectively removed the weaknesses...torque is basically irrelevant in this setup. I imagine it will be designed to hum along at around 3,000rpm or so. Ask aircraft pilots, these engines are fantastically reliable & durable when run at steady states. They just need to get the oiling right.
I hope Mazda builds on this and also designs a parallel hybrid rotary coupled to a 50-100kw electric motor. The electric motor handles all of the low RPM stuff that the rotary totally sucks at while at the same time eliminating the need for turbocharging. Best of both worlds. You could have a small 13b-sized normally aspirated 2-rotor that would probably drive like a 4-liter straight six....minus all the weight.
Press Release
Patent
Wankel Strengths:
-Power/size ratio
-Low weight
-Excellent Packaging potential
-Smoothness
-Few moving parts
-Simple/straight forward to rebuild
-Extremely reliable in controlled environments (constant load & rpm)
Wankel Weaknesses
-Lack of torque
-Non-steady state fuel efficiency
-Lack of reliability outside of controlled environments (some jack-wagon money shifting it to 11,000rpm, aftermarket turbos, etc)
By using the rotary as a generator, Mazda has effectively removed the weaknesses...torque is basically irrelevant in this setup. I imagine it will be designed to hum along at around 3,000rpm or so. Ask aircraft pilots, these engines are fantastically reliable & durable when run at steady states. They just need to get the oiling right.
I hope Mazda builds on this and also designs a parallel hybrid rotary coupled to a 50-100kw electric motor. The electric motor handles all of the low RPM stuff that the rotary totally sucks at while at the same time eliminating the need for turbocharging. Best of both worlds. You could have a small 13b-sized normally aspirated 2-rotor that would probably drive like a 4-liter straight six....minus all the weight.
CodeRedR51
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Another drawing that seems to have more information:
If I'm reading the patent text and drawings correctly, this design has both peripheral and side exhaust ports, though the peripheral exhaust ports look quite small. What's interesting is that it appears that only the side-exhaust ports route into the turbocharger, and the peripheral exhaust ports connect downstream of the turbine. (RX-8 engine only had side exhaust ports, all previous Mazda rotaries only had peripheral exhaust ports). It appears that they are doing this to more carefully calibrate the overlap characteristics of the engine....probably to make it cleaner. The other big thing I'm seeing is asymmetrical ports. Intake on one side of the rotor, and exhaust on the other. I believe every other rotary from Mazda has had intake ports on both sides of the rotor, and either a central exhaust port, or exhaust ports on both sides of the rotor. This is filed under "enhancing intake efficiency" in the patent application.
This appears to be the most radical redesign of the Rotary engine Mazda has ever done. The RX-8's engine wasn't significantly different than the 10a in the original Cosmo way back in 1967, it was fundamentally the same architecture. This seems quite a bit different. I hope we get to hear it rip!
If I'm reading the patent text and drawings correctly, this design has both peripheral and side exhaust ports, though the peripheral exhaust ports look quite small. What's interesting is that it appears that only the side-exhaust ports route into the turbocharger, and the peripheral exhaust ports connect downstream of the turbine. (RX-8 engine only had side exhaust ports, all previous Mazda rotaries only had peripheral exhaust ports). It appears that they are doing this to more carefully calibrate the overlap characteristics of the engine....probably to make it cleaner. The other big thing I'm seeing is asymmetrical ports. Intake on one side of the rotor, and exhaust on the other. I believe every other rotary from Mazda has had intake ports on both sides of the rotor, and either a central exhaust port, or exhaust ports on both sides of the rotor. This is filed under "enhancing intake efficiency" in the patent application.
This appears to be the most radical redesign of the Rotary engine Mazda has ever done. The RX-8's engine wasn't significantly different than the 10a in the original Cosmo way back in 1967, it was fundamentally the same architecture. This seems quite a bit different. I hope we get to hear it rip!
CodeRedR51
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This comes hot on the heels of that widebody LFA that had people chattering a couple weeks ago.
I genuinely think manufacturers are just using prototype day for trolling purposes... Any bets on next week?
Here's hoping for "Experimental Lancia hot hatch spotted at Nurburgring".... Please? Fiat? You guys listening?
All jokes aside, the rotary-hybrid rumour feels on the money. Anything that can blend electric torque with rotary character would be a pretty unique proposition and surely a decent chance at a good seller, especially with how smart looking todays Mazdas are.
Now, I'd like to see a lightweight, RWD rotary sports car come out as much as anyone, but given the state of the industry, a torquey, powerful hybrid sports saloon with even subdued rotary noises shouldn't be taken as a disappointment.
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Do we know for sure it was Mazda testing? Or just some guy who camo'd up his RX-8 for lulz?
edit: I see that it was a manufacturer day. Definitely sounds like a rotary engine, so that rules out I6 Skyactiv mule. And the architecture is definitely still all-RX-8 so that rules out platform mule. Only logical scenario, to me, is that Mazda is testing a new rotary engine.
edit: I see that it was a manufacturer day. Definitely sounds like a rotary engine, so that rules out I6 Skyactiv mule. And the architecture is definitely still all-RX-8 so that rules out platform mule. Only logical scenario, to me, is that Mazda is testing a new rotary engine.
CodeRedR51
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Same. Don't quite see it being a range extender, wouldn't make sense in this situation.
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No way it's a range extender in the car in the video. You can clearly hear the driver shifting a manual transmission. A range-extender would a: probably not be audible, and b: be running at a steady RPM. Whatever engine this is, it's powering the car. My hope, my dream, is a rotary-electric parallel hybrid. Both are buttery smooth. One provides low rpm torque, the other provides high rpm power. The electric motor could very likely eliminate most of the Wankel's inherant low load, low rpm problems which is where the reliability issues, economy issues, and oil consumption issues (partially) come from. It's kind of the cure-all for the rotary design. DO ITTTTTT Mazda. I've actually thought about trying to DIY a mild-hybrid setup on a Series 1 RX-8 just to see how much it could be improved.
To temper my own expectations, this is probably preliminary RWD platform development. Mazda hasn't made a larger FR platform since the RX-8. They are probably doing some base-analysis/benchmarking. The RX-8 is arguably one of the finest FR platforms ever made, so it would make sense for them to use it as a basis of design.
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I agree this is most likely benchmarking, and it might not even be Mazda doing it. Exactly who, other than Mazda, would want to use the RX-8 as a benchmark and for what purpose - I don't know.
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- SpacedustDaddy
Toyota are looking to replace the out-going Mark X. We'll see.
CodeRedR51
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If Toyota are looking at an athletic sedan this time, as opposed to a rwd Camry, that was the Mark X, would add to the rwd sporting family of Supra and 86. As posted above- I don't know either.
CodeRedR51
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Are they going to call it RE-RE?
Anyway, it looks front wheel drive. It's almost hard to tell it's not a parallel hybrid with how closely packaged it all is.
Anyway, it looks front wheel drive. It's almost hard to tell it's not a parallel hybrid with how closely packaged it all is.
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If nothing else, it looks damn near production ready. I want a ReRex.
It looks so similar to the 2019 Mazda 3 unibody that I'm going to say the picture is actually a Mazda3 or a CX-30. Take a close look at the stampings on the firewall and the strut towers.
It looks so similar to the 2019 Mazda 3 unibody that I'm going to say the picture is actually a Mazda3 or a CX-30. Take a close look at the stampings on the firewall and the strut towers.
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If nothing else, it looks damn near production ready. I want a ReRex.
It looks so similar to the 2019 Mazda 3 unibody that I'm going to say the picture is actually a Mazda3 or a CX-30. Take a close look at the stampings on the firewall and the strut towers.
Indeed it is. They’re already letting some people test their electric prototype (without the range extender): https://www.carscoops.com/2019/09/m...driven-just-what-youd-expect-from-a-mazda-ev/
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Could....could it be....?
https://jalopnik.com/mazdas-chinese-branch-just-teased-a-big-rotary-announce-1838419557
Fingers crossed for a parallel hybrid RX-something. Preferably based on the RX-Vision. 400hp and 3,000lbs, please.
Edit: The illustration is quite...strange.
The various items/machinery appear to form a 6, probably signifying "6th Generation" whereas the poster invites us to come see the "7th Generation". Trying to deicfer it more, it appears to be a rotor in the center (obviously) with an alternator on the right (??) and an AC compressor and power steering pump on the left? I don't get it. It's a weird drawing...perhaps its not meant to signify anything more than "6".
I'm not sure why they would have a Cosmo so explicitly on the poster if it wasn't important to whatever this is. The Cosmo, historically, has tended to be a vehicle (figuratively and literally) with which Mazda introduces new technology. Are we really getting a new one? That would be pretty awesome.
https://jalopnik.com/mazdas-chinese-branch-just-teased-a-big-rotary-announce-1838419557
Fingers crossed for a parallel hybrid RX-something. Preferably based on the RX-Vision. 400hp and 3,000lbs, please.
Edit: The illustration is quite...strange.
The various items/machinery appear to form a 6, probably signifying "6th Generation" whereas the poster invites us to come see the "7th Generation". Trying to deicfer it more, it appears to be a rotor in the center (obviously) with an alternator on the right (??) and an AC compressor and power steering pump on the left? I don't get it. It's a weird drawing...perhaps its not meant to signify anything more than "6".
I'm not sure why they would have a Cosmo so explicitly on the poster if it wasn't important to whatever this is. The Cosmo, historically, has tended to be a vehicle (figuratively and literally) with which Mazda introduces new technology. Are we really getting a new one? That would be pretty awesome.
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- 1,007
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It's a countdown. It will be revealed in 6 days.
CodeRedR51
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Probably just the range extender.
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- SpacedustDaddy
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Disappointing news.
http://www.autonews.com/article/201...w-mazda-boss:-rotary-is-a-no-go#ixzz2l16HIhUM
100k cars a year? The RX-7 itself never even got close to that. I fear we may have seen the end.
I want to bring back this post, and this notion.
I wonder if Mazda is self-justifying the development of an RX car by cross-pollinating the engine technology with their range extender? I mean it makes sense, right? The range extender gets a single-rotor non turbo (or maybe turbo?) version of the engine, and the RX gets a turbocharged 2-rotor version. But by building the range extender, Mazda can get the production figures up around 100,000 units. Those patent drawings really, really look like a RWD rotary-powered vehicle.
CodeRedR51
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I've read that it is a driver training/license test vehicle, rather than a powertrain test. It seems like a completely ordinary RX-8. It is still interesting though.
