MH17 Crash In Ukraine. Known info in OP.

[JogoAsobi]

delete

 

[ULTRAVIOLENZZ]

Deleted sorry.

 

[PsuPepperoni]

^NSFW

 

[ULTRAVIOLENZZ]

^NSFW

Ok. I saw the bloody thing down...sorry Mods.

 

[Sanji Himura]

The contents of missiles, perhaps.

I would have thought that any "sanitising", if it were genuinely taking place, would be getting rid of as many missile fragments or explosive traces as they can find.

That said, I think this case has surely gone beyond such efforts. It could be that they're not hiding the bodies but in fact undertaking what they see as a mission of some kind of respect, simply unaware of the gravity of their continued actions.

I think that you are right, they are doing this as a form of respect, not knowing what investigative value those bodies have to the investigation, otherwise heavy equipment would be at the scene to "scrub" the landscape of any traces of the plane.

 

[Touring Mars]

Another bit of bizarre but good news...

Meet Maarten De Jonge aka Lucky Jim...

He was meant to be on MH17 but changed his plans to save money...



He was also meant to be on MH370, but changed his plans to avoid a long stopover...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...th-times-says-his-luck-was-inconceivable.html

 

[PeterJB]

Similar to the man who survived both atomic bombings.

 

[Keef]

He was also meant to be on MH370, but changed his plans to avoid a long stopover...

He coulda been kilt twice!

 

[prisonermonkeys]

One of the rebel leaders has come forward and stated that both FDR's are in his possession and he will give them to the investigators.

They have also said that they will guarantee the safety of investigators if the Ukrainian government agrees to a ceasefire.

 

[Crash]

Second question first. The agency that monitors airspace here in America is only responsible for US based airlines. Their warning was required to be heeded by airlines such as American, Delta and so on, but regardless the European based airlines followed the warning because they were trying to prevent this very disaster. Malaysian airlines is a direct agency of the Malaysian government. It was them that decided not to divert around Ukraine to save costs. If any negligence is to be had (besides to the rebels who shot down the plane) it should rest on the airline for flying into an active warzone.

The FAA did not close Ukrainian airspace for US carriers (ie. prohibit US flights over the fighting area) until after MH17 was shot down. FAA merely issued a warning instead of an outright prohibition. For a US based airline to fly over that area before the MH17 incident would not have been a breach of FAA rules.

Eurocontrol, which is responsible for routing flights throughout Europe, regularly routed flights over the hostile area until MH17 was shot down, so it was perfectly reasonable for Malaysian Airlines to fly over that area. If that area should have been a no fly zone, then Eurocontrol and/or Ukraine should have closed that airspace completely. Even in just the days before MH17 was shot down, a number of other respectable airlines including Lufthansa, Air France, Emirates, Singapore, Virgin, KLM flew over the fighting territory.

Airlines fly over conflict zones around the world all the time, American, European, Asian, Australian, or African all do it. This was an extremely unfortunately incident that happened to Malaysian Airlines, but it could have been numerous other flights or other airlines that this happened to.

 

[Sanji Himura]

Did I say that the FAA closed Ukrainian airspace for US carriers? I believed I used the word warning for a reason. Ukraine ATC closed airspace increasingly until the crash because of the separatists shooting down military planes. FL 320 was considered the safest that Ukraine was willing to go before the crash because the risk of being shot down by shoulder mounted RPGs, which took down all of the other aircraft, was nil. The FAA just simply took things one step further and advised US carriers to consider the corridor closed, something that they heeded.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The bodies are being moved to a refrigerated train carriage about 15km away. This has been universally seen as a good thing ... except by our foreign ministry, who have warned the separatists not to use them as hostages, which has not been repeated by any other government (as far as I know).

It's like we're trying to prove that Russia doesn't have a monopoly on being unhelpful. I can't see Julie Bishop's comments as being anything other than inflammatory.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Did I say that the FAA closed Ukrainian airspace for US carriers? I believed I used the word warning for a reason. Ukraine ATC closed airspace increasingly until the crash because of the separatists shooting down military planes. FL 320 was considered the safest that Ukraine was willing to go before the crash because the risk of being shot down by shoulder mounted RPGs, which took down all of the other aircraft, was nil. The FAA just simply took things one step further and advised US carriers to consider the corridor closed, something that they heeded.

Source? At first look there might be some confusion over the upper/lower airspaces.

EDIT: 14s video posted by a passenger before the flight took off, (Huff Post).

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Poroshenko says 272 bodies have been recovered, and 251 put into refrigeration. It's clearly a co-operative effort, and not the attempt at hostage-taking our government wants it to be.

 

[TenEightyOne]

FAA did indeed advise that, according to CNBC, sorry for doubting you @Sanji Himura

To be clear about the "increasing" airspace restrictions; they were VFR/Low Altitude restrictions, the high-altitude airspace had a floor of FL320* and was open without any restrictions other than that FAA advice (US carriers only and not mandatory) and the previously-linked NOTAM regarding confused (or plain unhelpful) handovers between Ukraini/Russian ATC.


*Not an actual measurement of height-over-ground at any given point in the flight, at this point all aircraft would be using a standard altimeter setting

 

[Rage Racer]

The international investigators are stuck in Kiev, because Ukrainian authorities say that DPR "obstructs" their visit. The DPR prime minister Alexander Borodai invites the experts to come "as soon as possible".

Meanwhile, except for the promised cease fire, Ukrainian army starts a counter attack, taking their chance when a big part of militia forces is busy securing the crash site.
(Source: MK)

 

[IforceV8]

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/07/18/infowars_russian_media_mh17_ukraine

 

[andrea]

Listening to an ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corp, quite reputable) reporter on the way home tonight - every bag they saw was open, every purse and wallet had been gone through. Also fingers had been removed to get to the rings

 

[Carlos]

https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=zYmWZjjFjqeI.k5yYInaoJDUc

Where the Dutch people lived and why they were going, based on provided information. It's in Dutch but maybe Google translates.

 

[andrea]

An dutch expert team looked at the corpses in the train. The smell of decay was so strong that people around the trainwagons started to tumble. It must've been disgusting.

source: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...-a-982149.html

 

[Rage Racer]

An dutch expert team looked at the corpses in the train. The smell of decay was so strong that people around the trainwagons started to tumble. It must've been disgusting.

source: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...-a-982149.html

Now you understand why they move the bodies?

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/07/18/infowars_russian_media_mh17_ukraine

Infowar, nothing personal
The Western media is about the same thing - the investigation is not even started, but they think they already know who's the culprit: "pro-Russian rebels! Putin is responsible!"

 

[zzz_pt]

Putin is responsible for the situation in Ukraine. That's for sure. Russia did an illigal occupation when Ukraine was in a political crisis. Putin is responsible for the militar invasion and the consequenses they brought.

We don't have 100% sure of the origin of the rocket/missil that shot down the airplane but we can't dismiss the role that Putin has played in the current militar situation in the area. And it's pretty obvious that the rebels have been helped by the russians.

 

[Carlos]

Now you understand why they move the bodies?


Infowar, nothing personal
The Western media is about the same thing - the investigation is not even started, but they think they already know who's the culprit: "pro-Russian rebels! Putin is responsible!"

I think what is happening now is better. Just get the people out of there and find a different motive to go there.

 

[terminator363]

I thought those train cars were refrigerated, I guess they aren't freezers

 

[TenEightyOne]

Tony Abbott says of the rebels "leaving these people in charge of the crash site is rather like leaving criminals in charge of the crime scene". Clever Tony, see what he did there?

As I watched I couldn't help but be struck by sight of his Tiny Flying Animal Helpers whispering new clever ideas to him.

 

[Rage Racer]

Putin is responsible for the situation in Ukraine. That's for sure. Russia did an illigal occupation when Ukraine was in a political crisis. Putin is responsible for the militar invasion and the consequenses they brought.

Lol, invasion by locals and volunteers? You don't even consider the idea that people could start acting without Putin's order. You claim that so sure, like you were a DPR commander and received orders from Moscow.
It's the same as saying that Obama is responsible for invasion of Syria.
And you don't give a **** about EU & US backing Ukrainian army killing civilians in Slaviansk, Kramatorsk, Luhansk and other cities of Eastern Ukraine.

People of Donbass have their truth. They had the right to protest in April. They wanted more autonomy, to not cut their ties with RF. But the government labeled them as "separatists", "Putin's agents", and tried to suppress the protests. Later, in Odessa, Ukrainian ultranationalists burned about 40 pro-Russian activists alive in the trade union house while police was standing by and watching. So people of Donbass knew what kind of government they got after the coup, and took guns to free their land from the Nazi junta (as they call their new regime).

 

[zzz_pt]

Lol, invasion by locals and volunteers? You don't even consider the idea that people could start acting without Putin's order. You claim that so sure, like you were a DPR commander and received orders from Moscow.
It's the same as saying that Obama is responsible for invasion of Syria.
And you don't give a **** about EU & US backing Ukrainian army killing civilians in Slaviansk, Kramatorsk, Luhansk and other cities of Eastern Ukraine.

People of Donbass have their truth. They had the right to protest in April. They wanted more autonomy, to not cut their ties with RF. But the government labeled them as "separatists", "Putin's agents", and tried to suppress the protests. Later, in Odessa, Ukrainian ultranationalists burned about 40 pro-Russian activists alive in the trade union house while police was standing by and watching. So people of Donbass knew what kind of government they got after the coup, and took guns to free their land from the Nazi junta (as they call their new regime).

From where do you think the "black uniform without identification" soldiers came from? Mars? And do you really think they went to Ukraine without Putin's permission?

The rest of the things you told us are pretty much a consequence of that act.

The situation was Ukraine business until Russia entered illigally in their terretory with the excuse of "protecting russian people in Ukraine". lol.

 

[mister dog]

The Western media is about the same thing - the investigation is not even started, but they think they already know who's the culprit: "pro-Russian rebels! Putin is responsible!"

You are still denying that Russian sponsored rebels took this plane down? The plane was already filled with dead bodies and shot down by Ukranians in order to put the blame on Russia right?...

Lol, invasion by locals and volunteers? You don't even consider the idea that people could start acting without Putin's order.

This whole thing was a setup, i know most Russians think it was a spontaneous act of people longing to be part of the great Russian empire, but come on... even though they are basically Russians living in Ukraine, the timeframe for their "revolution" and the involvement of the Kremlin in the whole thing is a bit suspicious no?

 

[MisterWhiskers]

From where do you think the "black uniform without identification" soldiers came from? Mars? And do you really think they went to Ukraine without Putin's permission?

The rest of the things you told us are pretty much a consequence of that act.

The situation was Ukraine business until Russia entered illigally in their terretory with the excuse of "protecting russian people in Ukraine". lol.

I completely agree. If they went to Ukraine without permission, how the hell did the rebels get that SAM system? It's common sense that they didn't have the money to buy it. And how would they fire it without the proper training? Someone from the Russian military had to train the rebels. C'mon guys, no one can just shoot a plane 30,000 ft in the damn air. It's not like a gun where you can just practice. It's literally rocket science. Putin is in denial and wants to cover his own ass.

 

[TenEightyOne]

UN Security Council pass emergency resolution requiring immediate access to the crash site.

This potentially carries a mandate for military support, from memory. What exactly it means outside an international "statement of intent" I'm unsure.