MH17 Crash In Ukraine. Known info in OP.

[Rage Racer]

From where do you think the "black uniform without identification" soldiers came from? Mars? And do you really think they went to Ukraine without Putin's permission?

Well, the black uniform was worn by Ukrainian nationalist fighters (National Guard), you're confusing things. Maybe you mean green uniform. Why can't you have an idea they are locals (including deserting former Ukrainian servicemen) who organized their own guerrilla movement? Why do you think they must be coming from somewhere?
Later, when things started getting bigger and hotter, some volunteers from RF joined the movement. Tell me, do you really think we can't fart without Putin's permission?
And considering the fact of presence of some Belarusian volunteers in the Novorossian militias - would you claim Lukashenko responsible, too?

The Russian intelligence agencies thought the rebels could be useful for RF's agenda, and started supplying them with hardware, unofficially. But there's nothing proving that resistance was initiated by the Russian government, or receives orders from Kremlin.

I've done.

I completely agree. If they went to Ukraine without permission, how the hell did the rebels get that SAM system? It's common sense that they didn't have the money to buy it. And how would they fire it without the proper training? Someone from the Russian military had to train the rebels. C'mon guys, no one can just shoot a plane 30,000 ft in the damn air. It's not like a gun where you can just practice. It's literally rocket science. Putin is in denial and wants to cover his own ass.

Or course you'd never assume that sweet, democratic, European Ukraine could do it.

 

[mister dog]

UN Security Council pass emergency resolution requiring immediate access to the crash site.

This potentially carries a mandate for military support, from memory. What exactly it means outside an international "statement of intent" I'm unsure.

The UN.. Nobody listens to the UN anymore.

 

[Rage Racer]

You are still denying that Russian sponsored rebels took this plane down? The plane was already filled with dead bodies and shot down by Ukranians in order to put the blame on Russia right?...

This whole thing was a setup, i know most Russians think it was a spontaneous act of people longing to be part of the great Russian empire, but come on... even though they are basically Russians living in Ukraine, the timeframe for their "revolution" and the involvement of the Kremlin in the whole thing is a bit suspicious no?

No, I'm not denying the traffic of Russian hardware and volunteers to Novorossiya.
Why the plane should be filled with dead bodies?
My assumption is that it was a planned operation. ATC shifts the route to the war zone, SBU records so-called conversation a day before. The 777 could be shot with an air-to-air missile of a Ukrainian military jet (or SAM, or even both). I don't believe the "Spanish dispatcher" crap, but the RF defense ministry tells about an attack jet spotted by Russian satellites/radars on the same altitude as the Boeing, and relocation of Ukrainian Buk-M1 batteries closer to the conflict zone. They revealed the images, unlike Washington claiming fire from DPR-controlled area. I hope I won't need to tell again what Ukraine may gain by downing the MH17?

The timeframe is not any suspicious, if you are aware of the Kievan coup d'état with Rusophobic nationalists playing a big role.

 

[mister dog]

Why the plane should be filled with dead bodies?

That's what Igor Girkin actually claimed:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/07/...ght-mh17-was-filled-with-already-dead-bodies/

 

[Rage Racer]

That's what Igor Girkin actually claimed:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/07/...ght-mh17-was-filled-with-already-dead-bodies/

If I would believe everything Girkin (aka Strelkov) says...
His claims are sometimes a lot more crazy than the Russian propaganda, I can tell. He may be a good commander, but he's not a good news source.

EDIT: the train with victims' bodies is departed from Torez to Kharkiv (Ukraine-controlled city).

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Tony Abbott says of the rebels "leaving these people in charge of the crash site is rather like leaving criminals in charge of the crime scene". Clever Tony, see what he did there?

As I watched I couldn't help but be struck by sight of his Tiny Flying Animal Helpers whispering new clever ideas to him.

He has taken an absolute beating in the court of public opinion lately - a string of broken election promises, an incredibly tough budget, and some extremely unpopular policy decisions. If an election were to be held tomorrow, he would probably lose, and lose badly. He needed a show of solidarity, an issue where he could use his aggressive style to win over hearts and minds (his government has been criticised in the past for thinking and acting too much like an opposition party), which explains why he is taking a hardline approach here - he was the first world leader to accuse Russia of being involved, he had the Russian ambassador summoned to the Foreign Ministry, he has criticised the recovery efforts, and his Foreign Minister is accusing the separatists of planning to use victims' bodies as hostages.

The whole thing comes across as counter-productive, and, as has been a hallmark of Abbott's government, out of step with public opinion. There's deep sadness down here, and while there is anger, I haven't heard anyone echo the government's stance. Personally, I think he's being far too aggressive when a softer touch is needed, trying far too hard to be a world leader in the response, and ignoring the needs of others. As far as I am aware, he hasn't had any contact with the Dutch or the Ukrainians - instead, he's trying to be the man who brought Putin to heel.

The Malaysians, on the other hand, have the right idea - they're the ones who managed to secure the black boxes from the separatists and get the victims taken to the Ukrainian city of Kharkiv, with the promise that everything will be handed on to the Dutch. That's leadership.

 

[zzz_pt]

Well, the black uniform was worn by Ukrainian nationalist fighters (National Guard), you're confusing things. Maybe you mean green uniform. Why can't you have an idea they are locals (including deserting former Ukrainian servicemen) who organized their own guerrilla movement? Why do you think they must be coming from somewhere?
Later, when things started getting bigger and hotter, some volunteers from RF joined the movement. Tell me, do you really think we can't fart without Putin's permission?
And considering the fact of presence of some Belarusian volunteers in the Novorossian militias - would you claim Lukashenko responsible, too?

The Russian intelligence agencies thought the rebels could be useful for RF's agenda, and started supplying them with hardware, unofficially. But there's nothing proving that resistance was initiated by the Russian government, or receives orders from Kremlin.

I've done.


Or course you'd never assume that sweet, democratic, European Ukraine could do it.

From what I can tell from your posts, I think you're being brainwashed. But that's not entirely your fault since you're living in Russia (I presume) where media accounts aren't the "most accurate".

 

[Rage Racer]

From what I can tell from your posts, I think you're being brainwashed. But that's not entirely your fault since you're living in Russia (I presume) where media accounts aren't the "most accurate".

I knew you would say that, I'm not surprised. But you know the difference between what I post and what you do? I make assumptions and suspect both sides (but consider the militia's fault less likely), but you claim it all like you know the 100% truth. That makes a question, who of us is being brainwashed - me or you?
Tell me, have you ever had an idea that your country's press may miss some facts and be biased, too?
You call me being brainwashed because my point of view differs from yours. Not what I'd like to expect from a citizen of democratic Europe...

 

[FoRiZon]

TLDR. Yes, Russian did shot down the plane. But it was pure mistake. Which is why the militants allows international investigator to investigate and bring its dead bodies back to its homeland. Im pretty sure Russia/its militants doesn't want to war against Holland at this point.

Also, poor communication kills.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Yes, Russian did shot down the plane.

You will need evidence of that.

 

[MisterWhiskers]

O M G This kind of has something to do with this. Remember John Titor? http://www.anomalies.net/original-john-titor-posts-post2post-art-bell-forum-part-1/

And a comment thread in here:

What if this is all connected? What if this is like the assassination of the archduke of the Austro-Hungary, theone that started WW1? Really, REALLY interesting stuff.

 

[Denur]

Dutch minister for foreign affairs Timmermans addresses the United Nations with an emotional speech.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The black boxes have been handed over without incident or evidence of tampering.

 

[Xilor]

Furthermore, Russia will be sending its own team of experts to assist in the investigation: http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/741710

Now you have to ask yourself, if Russia was behind the plane crash, why would they be doing this? To tamper with and influence the investigation? That's a leap of faith worthy of infowars.

The way I see it, there's 2 possibilities:

1. The Ukrainian govt. did this, and in the coming weeks Russia will go to great lengths to prove it as it'll be a turning point in the war.

2. The rebels are responsible, however they received no instructions or assistance from Russia. And Russia will attempt to prove this to alleviate some of the blame and pressure put on them by the international community.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Now you have to ask yourself, if Russia was behind the plane crash, why would they be doing this? To tamper with and influence the investigation? That's a leap of faith worthy of infowars.

The way I see it, there's 2 possibilities

Or, the Russians have figured out just how responsible they are, have concluded that supporting the separatist movement is a political liability and that whatever they sought in Ukraine in the first place is now unobtainable, and so have decided that supporting the investigation is in their interests.

Also, there is no evidence that the Ukrainians were responsible.

 

[zzz_pt]

I knew you would say that, I'm not surprised. But you know the difference between what I post and what you do? I make assumptions and suspect both sides (but consider the militia's fault less likely), but you claim it all like you know the 100% truth. That makes a question, who of us is being brainwashed - me or you?
Tell me, have you ever had an idea that your country's press may miss some facts and be biased, too?
You call me being brainwashed because my point of view differs from yours. Not what I'd like to expect from a citizen of democratic Europe...

My "claims" are based on what we know and saw until this day. I can change my oppinion but at this point I have no evidence or clue to put the Ukrainian gov. in the role of the attacker. From what we've seen, is most likely that the separatists did it with the help of russian military.


I don't even see the news from my country as they are very poor. I've been reading and watching various media from various parts of the world.

Chinese gov. saying "the west" is the responsible for the tragedy...lol

 

[Grayfox]

My "claims" are based on what we know and saw until this day. I can change my oppinion but at this point I have no evidence or clue to put the Ukrainian gov. in the role of the attacker. From what we've seen, is most likely that the separatists did it with the help of russian military.


I don't even see the news from my country as they are very poor. I've been reading and watching various media from various parts of the world.

Chinese gov. saying "the west" is the responsible for the tragedy...lol

Maybe the North-northwest

 

[Xilor]

Also, there is no evidence that the Ukrainians were responsible.

There is no hard evidence that anyone is responsible at this point, only speculation. This article though definitely shows some clues that may be pointing in Ukraine's direction: http://en.itar-tass.com/world/741655

My "claims" are based on what we know and saw until this day. I can change my oppinion but at this point I have no evidence or clue to put the Ukrainian gov. in the role of the attacker. From what we've seen, is most likely that the separatists did it with the help of russian military.


I don't even see the news from my country as they are very poor. I've been reading and watching various media from various parts of the world.

Chinese gov. saying "the west" is the responsible for the tragedy...lol

Much of what we have seen so far has already been put under severe doubt. People made fun of me a few days ago when I compared the Ukrainian govt. to Infowars, having been born and raised in that country, I know the mentality of those people and the BS that they're capable of.

The problem right now is that there is very little information coming out of somewhat neutral sources, so its certainly far too early to reject any possibilities, and classify others as brainwashed when your own "claims" aren't even close to being proven facts.

 

[TenEightyOne]

There is no hard evidence that anyone is responsible at this point, only speculation.

It seems very likely that the aircraft was taken down by a missile strike, so likely in fact that I'm not aware of anyone in office or otherwise entertaining any other possibility. I'm going to call it a fact, for now.

The capability required to make that strike obviates "MANPAD" shoulder-launched SAMs and in fact requires mounted equipment (most usually mounted on a drivable/portable chassis). That's a fact.

The aircraft was hit as it was about to cross Ukraine's Eastern border into Russia. That is also a fact.

For the Ukranian government ("West" Ukraine) to be complicit they'd have to get the correct piece of equipment to that area, secretly and unseen. That would be a hell of a job and for that reason alone I can't see how they're involved.

I think the pro-Russian "rebels" got hold of the equipment. "How?" is a question that I doubt we'll really ever find out the truth about.

One last fact I could add; the history of nation states supporting friendly rebel causes in other countries goes back as far as anyone can remember. It's a sport that's been enjoyed by all the big players many times.

 

[zzz_pt]

There is no hard evidence that anyone is responsible at this point, only speculation. This article though definitely shows some clues that may be pointing in Ukraine's direction: http://en.itar-tass.com/world/741655



Much of what we have seen so far has already been put under severe doubt. People made fun of me a few days ago when I compared the Ukrainian govt. to Infowars, having been born and raised in that country, I know the mentality of those people and the BS that they're capable of.

The problem right now is that there is very little information coming out of somewhat neutral sources, so its certainly far too early to reject any possibilities, and classify others as brainwashed when your own "claims" aren't even close to being proven facts.

You need to re-read my posts.

 

[Dennisch]

Jet Wreckage Bears Signs of Impact by Supersonic Missile, Analysis Shows

A piece of wreckage from the Malaysia Airlines jet downed over eastern Ukraine last week shows damage, including shrapnel holes and blistered paint, that is consistent with a hit from a fragmenting warhead, according to consultants with IHS-Jane’s.

 

[Rage Racer]

The prime minister of Donetsk People's Republic, Alexander Borodai, has handed the black boxes, with no signs of opening, over to Malaysian officials.

 

[Grayfox]

The prime minister of Donetsk People's Republic, Alexander Borodai, has handed the black boxes, with no signs of opening, over to Malaysian officials.

They might send them to the US so Boeing can review the data.

 

[Keef]

Furthermore, Russia will be sending its own team of experts to assist in the investigation: http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/741710

Now you have to ask yourself, if Russia was behind the plane crash, why would they be doing this? To tamper with and influence the investigation? That's a leap of faith worthy of infowars.

The way I see it, there's 2 possibilities:

1. The Ukrainian govt. did this, and in the coming weeks Russia will go to great lengths to prove it as it'll be a turning point in the war.

2. The rebels are responsible, however they received no instructions or assistance from Russia. And Russia will attempt to prove this to alleviate some of the blame and pressure put on them by the international community.

None of the evidence or descriptions I've seen have suggested that either government shot down the plane. Everything points to the rebels, and there is conversational evidence suggesting they didn't even do it on purpose but thought they shot down a military plane instead.

The rebels don't have a government. They're attempting to side with Russia, yes, but they're not under Russian jurisdiction.

 

[IforceV8]

If I declare myself a King can I have a press conference with other PM's too?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

So maybe someone can clear this up for me since I've been behind on this topic due to being busy but what is the pissing contest that the U.S. is having with Russia over this? I mean it seems our officials are bent on pinning this on Russia, which is probably why Russia is trying to put distance between them and those groups. However, what stake do we have to gain from this by once again stomping on a tragedy and claiming we have the interest of the innocent passengers in mind...

Just looking for some clarity on this, if there isn't any and it's just the U.S. trying to gain a political foot ahead of Russia let me know.

If I declare myself a King can I have a press conference with other PM's too?

Make sure to use a show of force, just saying it wont get you the much deserved air time.

 

[Dennisch]

They might send them to the US so Boeing can review the data.

They are being transported to the UK, the Malaysians will hand them over to the Netherlands and they will have them reviewed in the UK, the AAIB in Farnborough.

 

[Keef]

I just found some really awesome maps from NYT.

 

[Dennisch]

It missed that village by absolutely nothing.

Barbara Starr ✔ @barbarastarrcnn
Volgen
Here is satellite trajectory of #FlightMH17 and the missile US says shot it down. @NatSecCNN @cnnbrk

 

[IforceV8]

So maybe someone can clear this up for me since I've been behind on this topic due to being busy but what is the pissing contest that the U.S. is having with Russia over this? I mean it seems our officials are bent on pinning this on Russia, which is probably why Russia is trying to put distance between them and those groups. However, what stake do we have to gain from this by once again stomping on a tragedy and claiming we have the interest of the innocent passengers in mind...

Just looking for some clarity on this, if there isn't any and it's just the U.S. trying to gain a political foot ahead of Russia let me know.

I might be wrong but we are acting as the "big brother" who is needed to stand up Russia.The EU needs Putin's natural gas and are in a very weak position.