MH17 Crash In Ukraine. Known info in OP.

[Exorcet]

@Exorcet, I'm going to bow to your knowledge on that one

The figures are from the SA11 wiki page, gives a range of 45km but as you say that could be construed a number of ways.

I still don't think that pro-Ukraine Ukraine got any operational ground force into that area.

Anything military can be a tricky and murky subject, it just may be that to know you need to be on the inside and sworn to silence. My interest in these things has lead me to look for information every now and then, but I'd lie if I said it was complete. I'm just contributing what I've come to decide as the facts.

I don't blame pro Ukraine-Ukraine either, as I'd think only stupidity would lead them to shoot the plane down. This whole mess will take a while to unfold though.

 

[TenEightyOne]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...corders-wont-reveal-attack-experts-claim.html

They answer their own question really;

The data on the recorders can only be listened to using dedicated readout systems and software.

If the boxes aren’t damaged, investigators can play it back by connecting it to a readout system, via USB or Ethernet ports.

Memory boards can be removed by those familiar with the design and layout of the particular boxes, but this is said to take specialist equipment and knowledge.

To ‘hack’ the box a person would need to replace existing data with a false narrative to explain what happened to the plane during the time period.

A black box records more than 80 channels of data, so any attempts to hack it would need to alter all relevant data within the box.

For example, to ‘prove’ a plane’s engines shut off, someone could alter the data readings for the plane’s throttle settings and the engine RPM.

However, any attempt to hack a black box would encounter problems when attempts were made to correlate the data with other sources.

Almost all planes use what’s called the Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System (Acars), which involves transmissions of basic data from aircraft to ground stations.

Malaysia Airlines have already confirmed that, in the case of MH17, Acars transmitted as normal.

And, even if a black box was tampered with, it would not be possible to alter the Acars data, meaning any discrepancies would be highlighted.

 

[Sanji Himura]

That still wouldn't stop them from at least trying to alter data. Even if the FDR is later proven to be doctored, the fact that it was, if at all, should point some critical fingers at the separatists for altering a key piece of evidence.

 

[TenEightyOne]

That still wouldn't stop them from at least trying to alter data. Even if the FDR is later proven to be doctored, the fact that it was, if at all, should point some critical fingers at the separatists for altering a key piece of evidence.

That's why I said it didn't matter if someone didn't care about being found out... but then why would they bother?

To be clear, this isn't a string of simple altitude/heading/speed numbers, it's over 50 channels of precisely-sensed information about the whole aircraft. Just making a credible altitude change would mean altering the trim, engine temperature settings, possibly fuel balance, you'd have to know the new winds, you'd have to back-programme the FMC... you could do it as a Boeing-sponsored study over several months and still leave holes.

Can it be changed? Yes. Would it be obvious? Very. Is there any point then? No, not really.

 

[Concreterain]

Just solve it the same way the Americans did when they shot down a civilian aircraft killing close to 300 people . Do not apologize , say it was a wartime accident and throw some money at the victims.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The Americans say the most-likely explanation is that MH17 was shot down by separatists who were unfamiliar with the system. They say they have been monitoring the flow of military hardware across the border, but have no knowledge of the Buk system coming into the Ukraine.

 

[Xilor]

The Americans say the most-likely explanation is that MH17 was shot down by separatists who were unfamiliar with the system. They say they have been monitoring the flow of military hardware across the border, but have no knowledge of the Buk system coming into the Ukraine.

We must believe them, after all their primary source of information is social media
http://rt.com/news/174620-ukraine-crash-us-evidence/

Thankfully information from the investigators is slowly starting to trickle in, although even there, the Western media only posts stories backing their position, Russian media only posts stories backing theirs. At the end of the day we're just as far from knowing the truth as we were the moment of the crash.

 

[Exorcet]

We must believe them, after all their primary source of information is social media
http://rt.com/news/174620-ukraine-crash-us-evidence/

Specifically media generated by the separatists. I'd say that would be a good thing to look at. It also looks like it's more of a back up, with the primary being collected intelligence that they don't want to share just yet.

 

[Xilor]

Specifically media generated by the separatists. I'd say that would be a good thing to look at. It also looks like it's more of a back up, with the primary being collected intelligence that they don't want to share just yet.

I'd like to know what information they're talking about exactly. The only thing I can find is that tweet by Strelkov, who claimed a plane was shot down by the rebels at roughly the same time MH17 went down. However that has already been proved to be dubious since a Ukrainian military plane was indeed shot down at roughly the same time.

Furthermore I'm sure you know how easy it is to manipulate and tamper with social media feeds.

 

[Sanji Himura]

We must believe them, after all their primary source of information is social media
http://rt.com/news/174620-ukraine-crash-us-evidence/

Thankfully information from the investigators is slowly starting to trickle in, although even there, the Western media only posts stories backing their position, Russian media only posts stories backing theirs. At the end of the day we're just as far from knowing the truth as we were the moment of the crash.

I'm sure that there is a lot more evidence than that.

EDIT: Two New stories:

Story 1 - USA Today: 282 Bodies are out of separatist controlled land on the way to Amsterdam.

http://www.desertsun.com/videos/news/2014/07/22/12997699/

Story 2 - USA Today: MH17 Black Boxes Will Not Explain Why Plane Went Down - Expert

http://www.usatoday.com/story/trave...recorders-black-boxes-investigation/13012551/

 

[TenEightyOne]

@Xilor I'm not sure your overview of the whole Western media was correct...

 

[Rage Racer]

The Americans say the most-likely explanation is that MH17 was shot down by separatists who were unfamiliar with the system. They say they have been monitoring the flow of military hardware across the border, but have no knowledge of the Buk system coming into the Ukraine.

Do you know how long does it take to train an SAM crew so they could hit anything?

 

[Denur]

Do you know how long does it take to train an SAM crew so they could hit anything?

Sober or drunk crew?

 

[Rage Racer]

Sober or drunk crew?

Hint: this time is much more than enough for them to sober up.

 

[Denur]

Hint: this time is much more than enough for them to sober up.

Hint: sarcasm

 

[TenEightyOne]

Black boxes have now arrived in Britain. The BBC joins the scientific community in explaining that they're not actually black. For the thousandth time.

 

[Dennisch]

Black boxes have now arrived in Britain. The BBC joins the scientific community in explaining that they're not actually black. For the thousandth time.

They are not black?? That's something I never heard before!

 

[mister dog]

Do you know how long does it take to train an SAM crew so they could hit anything?

Must be Russians that knew how to handle it came along with the delivery

 

[Dennisch]

Must be Russians that knew how to handle it came along with the delivery

Which most likely is the scenario.

The 2 planes with the remains of 40 victims just touched down in Eindhoven.

 

[Denur]

Watching now on TV. Already impressive.

 

[andrea]

Damn this is pretty hard to watch, and to think these are just the first 40...

Respect for the Dutch military on how smooth everything is going.

 

[Denur]

The convoy with the first 40 remains is now driving on my daily commuter route. So much respect from the people along the way. But hardly any compensation for the disgusting behavior shown after the crash by those Russia wannabes.

 

[Dennisch]

The data from the Cockpit voice recorder has been successfully downloaded. The other box will be done tomorrow. There seems to be no evidence of tampering with either of them.

Also, there is something, I don't have a word for it, with seeing 40 hearses together.
There are a lot of people just parking their car on the highway(on the other side) out of respect for the victims.

I found a word. It's unreal.

 

[NLxAROSA]

My 4 year old son over here is deeply impressed by day of mourning, minute of silence, and all the people watching the line of 40 hearses. And so am I to be honest.

 

[Rage Racer]

They are not black?? That's something I never heard before!

I've read a comment of a Ukrainian guy who said: "the boxes were reported to be black, but the separatists gave orange boxes instead! That's a fake!".

 

[IforceV8]

@Rage Racer Does the DPR have any air combat ability? Pilots,aircraft etc?

 

[Dennisch]

I don't know how the situation is in other parts of the country but here in Hilversum it is eerily quiet on the streets.

Edit.

A separatist commander, Aleksandr Chodakovski, has acknowledged that the rebels did have a Buk system, without a doubt from Russia, and that it most likely already has been sent back to Russia to get rid of the evidence.

 

[Rage Racer]

@Rage Racer Does the DPR have any air combat ability? Pilots,aircraft etc?

Only one Su-25 attack jet captured from UAF. Nothing known about pilots, but it was never yet seen in combat.

 

[Dennisch]

@TenEightyOne

 

[MisterWhiskers]

If I was Putin, I would man up and give condolences. I mean, he knows people know that he sent Russian soldiers to train the rebels to fire the SAM. If the people in eastern Ukraine could give respects, he can.

Man, but that was really depressing. I don't usually cry that easily, but my eyes got teary.