- 6,975
- United States
So then why would the Ukrainian's have multiple Buk systems in the area if the only planes in the sky are Ukrainian as claimed by Russia?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014...sis-commander-exclusive-idUSKBN0FS1V920140723
MH17 Crash In Ukraine. Known info in OP.
- Thread starter Dennisch
- 1,285 comments
- 64,566 views
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014...sis-commander-exclusive-idUSKBN0FS1V920140723
- 4,572
- Moscow
- Rage_Racer_VOLK
- RageRacer48
The were preparing for Russian invasion. And, BTW, their propaganda keeps telling "Russians are about to invade!". Some crazy people even believe that Russian army (not volunteers fighting for Novorossiya) is already on Ukrainian territory (not only Crimea, if they still call it Ukrainian territory).
One of the theories is, a Ukrainian Buk-M1 battery crew believed that RF forces finally started the intervention and thought the MH17 was a transport plane of Russian Air Force, and shot it down.
He already did.
Do you know how long does such training take?
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- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
Looks like the left-hand side cockpit window (pilot's left elbow).
If that's damage from the missile explosion then that scuppers my starboard/aft/upper theory. Is all the damage from an explosion though? Towards the left of the piece there are what look like they might be bullet holes, perhaps from on-ground target practice?
- 31,545
- Buckwheat City
- Dennisch
It's hard to see on this picture but on tv they showed an up close shot in High def. You could clearly see that it has been hit with shrapnel. And they called it a key piece of evidence.
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
Actually, there are a lot more "outies" than "innies" on there, I wonder if that was blown outwards rather than inwards (ie the missile was actually on the right-hand side of the plane)?
The would explain how the forward passenger cabin roof peeled off in the way it did, the plane was hit near the right-side of the cockpit?
The piece shown has a high shrapnel concentration yet isn't destroyed.
andrea
(Banned)
- 5,858
- Japan
- virtualnao
I don't know how the situation is in other parts of the country but here in Hilversum it is eerily quiet on the streets.
Edit.
A separatist commander, Aleksandr Chodakovski, has acknowledged that the rebels did have a Buk system, without a doubt from Russia, and that it most likely already has been sent back to Russia to get rid of the evidence.
Compare that to the way the "pro-russians" transported them...
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
One of the separatist commanders from Donetsk has admitted he wanted a Buk system, but could not get his hands on one. He says the missile came from the Luhansk faction, and that the first he knew of it was went the plane went down. He is also under the impression that Kiev knew there was a Buk system in the hands of separatists, but made no move to find it.
Furthermore, the Prime Moron is considering "every option" to secure the crash site and any Australian bodies still there - including sending in the Australian Federal Police. I can't imagine than anyone would appreciate an armed contingent of police officers showing up unannounced ...
Furthermore, the Prime Moron is considering "every option" to secure the crash site and any Australian bodies still there - including sending in the Australian Federal Police. I can't imagine than anyone would appreciate an armed contingent of police officers showing up unannounced ...
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
I imagine no one from your area wants to see him act like a Cowboy either about this event.
Also if Kiev knew then why not make a move to stop this from happening and this I mean shooting down any aircraft not just MH17. If you're military hardware is being downed multiple times in a week wouldn't it be best to make an offensive on the ground to get rid of that BUK
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
I think there is a prevailing feeling that we just want our people back. Leave the investigation to other, better-qualified people. We are not the world leader that the government wants us to be, and nor do we want to be.
If true, it's more likely that Kiev knew about it, but couldn't find it.
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
Who doesn't want to be though the people or the gov't or both?
Well that's a shame, and would make sense due to the aircraft loss that week from their military.
- 6,259
- Tecumseh, MI
- I_Fail_At_FPS
What is Abbott thinking? Putting boots on the ground to secure it (especially by force) is just destined to be a disaster since the site is in a war zone. Wouldn't it make more sense for him to try to help broker a cease-fire? Admittedly, a cease-fire may be tough to implement, but it seems far more likely for that to be successful than to forcefully secure the crash site.
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
The government wants it. But I have never heard anyone ever suggest that we should be taking the lead on any world issue, except whaling.
It's believed those were brought down by shoulder-launched systems, not the Buk.
Probably "how can I be the Robert Menzies of the twenty-first century?" or something similar.
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
@prisonermonkeys Thanks for clearing that up for me.
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
Oh, good. We have fifty federal police on standby in London, ready to go at the drop of the hat. Apparently it will be a multi-national effort, although there is no word as to what the Dutch or the Ukrainians think of this.
- 3,164
- AMSTERDAM
- spyrrari
Yesterday there was a silent parade thru Amsterdam wich i attended....very impressive!!
Everybody was dressed in white,carrying white balloons....
There were just about all nationalyties you can imagine,also people from all ages!
Everywhere we walked cars stopped and shut down their engines,bicycles and pedestrians waited to cross streets,people on terrasses stood up,police and firemen lined up in front of their stations and saluted,other people applauding on the sidewalks.....
And all these different people were silent,respectfull and had the same thing on their minds,nomather what race,religion or age...people unite!!!
Proud to be Dutch and to have paid my respect to the ones who died and the ones who lost....
Lets hope something like this will never happen again and people will behave more like i saw them unite last night!
peace!
Spy.
Everybody was dressed in white,carrying white balloons....
There were just about all nationalyties you can imagine,also people from all ages!
Everywhere we walked cars stopped and shut down their engines,bicycles and pedestrians waited to cross streets,people on terrasses stood up,police and firemen lined up in front of their stations and saluted,other people applauding on the sidewalks.....
And all these different people were silent,respectfull and had the same thing on their minds,nomather what race,religion or age...people unite!!!
Proud to be Dutch and to have paid my respect to the ones who died and the ones who lost....
Lets hope something like this will never happen again and people will behave more like i saw them unite last night!
peace!
Spy.
- 2,532
- Netherlands
- Denur; GTP_Denur
The Dutch also have commandos on standby to travel with the investigators to the Ukraine and to protect them. Source (in Dutch).
- 4,572
- Moscow
- Rage_Racer_VOLK
- RageRacer48
SBU (Security Service of Ukraine) claims this photo as another "evidence" of separatists carrying the weapon back to RF. Do you guys think this is true?
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- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
I don't know you're not giving us too much to go on
- 4,572
- Moscow
- Rage_Racer_VOLK
- RageRacer48
This "photo" is basically a screenshot from a video taken in March - moving of Ukrainian army.
You can see some ice and people in winter clothes here.
The same Buk launcher - number 312 - is on the video taken on March, 5th.
One more thing:
The "intercepted militia's conversation" video by SBU: they call this man a Russian GRU colonel V.Geranin.
But actually, this image shows a retired colonel, candidate of military science, colonel Musa Khamzatov.
Haha, photoshop masters
P.S. I hope it's clear for you that there is no believable evidence yet of DPR's or RF's fault in the crash of MH17.
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
I'd agree with that. It seems likely on balance although I don't know to what extent... but I agree that I haven't seen any credible evidence as yet.
That said, the retired Colonel in the picture isn't quite retired, or so I understood? There's no doubt about his ID (at least I didn't think there was, is someone saying he's someone else?). He's been shown on the news here as a military adviser to Russian ground forces.
That seems to be born out by this; link.
Meanwhile, in an attempt to ruin my "one crash per month stat"; Algeria Airlines 'Loses Contact With Flight'
EDIT: I started a new thread, it has little relevance here other than the single obvious similarity.
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- 11,947
- Australia
- I_Grayson_Fox_I
He isn't, that is the issue.
All his ideas that he has done were the product of not thinking.
Dotini
(Banned)
- 15,742
- Seattle
- CR80_Shifty
The crash of MH17 can only be seen in the context of the conflict in Ukraine.
To assign fault in the loss of MH17, one might prefer to identify the rebels who shot it down, the pilot & airline who flew into the teeth of the missiles, and the government who said it was okay to fly into the teeth of the missiles.
But personally, I prefer to identify Catharine Ashton and Victoria Nuland, those two meddling biddies responsible for the conflict in the first place.
To assign fault in the loss of MH17, one might prefer to identify the rebels who shot it down, the pilot & airline who flew into the teeth of the missiles, and the government who said it was okay to fly into the teeth of the missiles.
But personally, I prefer to identify Catharine Ashton and Victoria Nuland, those two meddling biddies responsible for the conflict in the first place.
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
Fair enough...
No, not at all, that shows some pre-awareness of the danger for a start. Other than FAA advice (not mandatory), do you have any source for either of those claims? I'm sticking up for the pilots here, they were doing a job and died a civilian death the same as their charges.
Going to be one of those days
Dotini
(Banned)
- 15,742
- Seattle
- CR80_Shifty
So TenEightyOne is saying neither the pilot & airline, nor the government of Ukraine, had any pre-awareness of the danger of flying into the heart of a land/air conflict zone in which jets flying as high as 22,000' had already been shot down??
Okay, I'll grant they may not have been reading this thread.
But you cannot serious say they had NO awareness of the danger. They may all be profit-grubbing knuckle-draggers, but they are not all complete fools. They had a responsibility to protect, to show awareness and demonstrate responsibility. Sorry, but you cannot have it both ways.
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
Of course not, they were 10,000m above that... the incidents had occured in the lower airspace. Had there been any suggestion of threats in the upper HA airspace then no pilot would have flown through alone, let alone with passengers.
Well, I can. Even now with hindsight no one can definitively point a finger at the source of the danger. You're putting blame where the blame shouldn't lie, imo.
Sorry, but you cannot have it both ways.
Not trying to; find a source that shows why they should have had awareness that civilian aircraft at/above FL320 were at risk of ground fire?
There is none, only some FAA advice. Only one NOTAM was in place (every pilot checks NOTAMs) and that covered the ATC handover, nothing else.
Dotini
(Banned)
- 15,742
- Seattle
- CR80_Shifty
You are shrouding yourself with the comforting blanket of legality and blissful denial - a perfectly acceptable way to argue; I do it all the time.
But here and today, I take the pragmatic and common-sense view that they should have known, did know, and will never escape their respective culpability. Time and the courts will tell.
- 8,426
- Rockay City
The Dutch government is preparing a UN resolution specifically for this purpose. Most likely for a contingent of military police guarded by commando troops.
- 7,601
- Exorcet
- OE Exorcet
Buk missiles are not (yet) common weapons for small rebel forces. As far the airlines would have know, the flight was safe. For the jet to come within range of what you'd expect the separatists to have, it would have had to have been in trouble already. As the major governments of the region are the only ones with control over the airspace and neither would benefit from attacking an airliner (nor would there be much chance of them mistaking the airliner for a target) there was no reason to suspect Ukraine or Russia would be a danger.
Flying over the battle space was a choice they made. It came with risks and it came with consequences, but nothing far beyond what you'd see in normal flying.
Okay, I'll grant they may not have been reading this thread.
Sorry, but you cannot have it both ways.
The airline's responsibility would be limited to not denying that they would fly over the airspace. Passengers would find the risk acceptable or not and board.
If these people are not fools then even if they're greedy they shouldn't be blinded by small short term profits. Losing an airliner is a problem, especially if you just lost a different airliner. The risks were considered small. Risk is never zero, so saying that they should avoid all risk is a terrible argument.
- 7,601
- Exorcet
- OE Exorcet
No. Whether or not flying over a warzone is worth it is an individual decision. The airline decides taking into account the risk if they want to send plane and crew over the conflict. The crew decides taking into account risk if they want fly over the conflict. The passengers decide taking into account risk if they want to ride a plane flying over the conflict.
Given that the risk involved would be about the same as the case where there was not a war, you wouldn't expect anyone to change their plans.
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