MH17 Crash In Ukraine. Known info in OP.

  • Thread starter Dennisch
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What do you make of the fact that Russia had access to the black boxes for 4 days?

http://news.yahoo.com/russia-claims-mh17-crash-investigation-stalled-131218847.html

Moscow (AFP) - Russia complained Monday of a failure to release details of the investigation into the Malaysian jet that crashed in Ukraine in July, accusing international investigators of lack of transparency.

Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov queried why the recordings from the plane's black boxes had not been released publicly and said he had the impression that "everyone else has lost interest in the investigation."

Dutch investigators leading the probe said early this month that they would release an initial report "in a few weeks."

A Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 exploded over insurgent-held east Ukraine on July 17, killing all 298 on board, with the West accusing Russia-backed separatists of shooting it down and Moscow blaming Kiev.

The aircraft's black boxes have been shipped to Farnborough in Britain to be examined by the Air Accidents Investigation Branch.

"No one has told us anything coherent about the reasons why the recordings of the black boxes cannot be released fully," Lavrov said at a televised briefing in Moscow.

He also queried why Ukraine had not yet provided recordings of conversations between air traffic controllers in the nearby airport of Dnepropetrovsk.
 
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IforceV8
That website (globalresearch) is way too close to RT news to be taken seriously.
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TenEightyOne
Do you have any original sources that aren't just people like you-and-me blogging about this rumoured agreement or what it's purported to cover?
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TenEightyOne
Is there really anything other than click-bait noise?
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Now, The Australian, #1 national circulation daily in Australia and part of the Murdoch empire, has published the following article. Not much news here for us, but it comes from the mouth of the mainstream media, adds the news PM Abbott was in Europe on the date of the pact dated August 8, and lends credence to the machine translation we have of the document available to us in Russian language.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-...039329324?nk=a713a1c8230811be6b759ce01c3af703

“We must not allow the investigation of the MH17 crash to be manipulated into oblivion,’’ Mr Lavrov told the English-language Russia Beyond the Headlines.

At a later press conference, Mr Lavrov alleged a delay in the release of the black box voice recordings, being analysed by the British along with the doomed flight’s communications with air traffic controllers at the nearby airport of Dnepropetrovsk.

He repeated the claim a Ukrainian air force jet was also in the area when the plane was downed over Ukraine on July 17 with the loss of all 298 people on board.

It’s widely believed a Russian-supplied sophisticated surface to air missile was used by pro-Russian separatists to shoot down the airliner after it was mistaken for a military transport.

“No one has told us anything coherent about the reasons why the recordings of the black boxes cannot be released fully,” Mr Lavrov said.

“The truth must be revealed.’’

Russian Prosecutor-General Yuri Boychenko claimed Australia had signed a crash investigation pact with Ukraine, The Netherlands and Belgium. He said under the terms of the deal any country could veto the publication of the investigation results without explanation.

Russian website LiveJournal posted a document it claimed was a version of the pact dated August 8 — the same day Prime Minister Tony Abbott confirmed a trip to The Netherlands and Britain to discuss the ongoing investigation as well as the deteriorating situation in Iraq. The website claimed the purported veto meant the cause of the disaster would never be revealed.
 
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The Murdoch Empire, recently found guilty of hacking the voicemails of a murdered schoolgirl and of generally-criminal journalism are well known for their stories here. Think of Fox News without the class or undying yearning for truth.

The timing of Abbott's journey isn't significant if you consider that some leaders were meeting at that time, I don't think the date is in doubt. Anyone can make a claim about what was discussed there.

And if Mr. Lavrov finds the reasoning for FD recordings not being released during investigations to be incoherent he should emplov a bitter tronslotor.
 
TenEightyOne
The Murdoch Empire, recently found guilty of hacking the voicemails of a murdered schoolgirl and of generally-criminal journalism are well known for their stories here. Think of Fox News without the class or undying yearning for truth.
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You do know that Murdoch owns Fox, right?

Dotini
Now, The Australian, #1 national circulation daily in Australia and part of the Murdoch empire, has published the following article.
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You can't trust The Australian on anything, least of all the subject of Tony Abbott and the current Liberal government. At times, they're little more than a propaganda machine - Abbott could be caught torturing puppies, and The Australian would argue that the puppies had it coming.
 
They also have found shrapnel in the bodies of personnel. Further investigation will tell what that shrapnel was.
 
http://time.com/3310287/mh17-report...#3310287/mh17-report-dutch-malaysia-airlines/
"Yet the report makes no mention of any missiles or missile fragments found at the crash site.

the wording of the 34-page report [in pdf format here]was also vague enough to leave room for one of the more common theories among the rebel fighters in eastern Ukraine. Russian President Vladimir Putin blamed the disaster on the Ukrainian government on the night of the crash; and in the days that followed, some of the separatists claimed in interviews with TIME that a Ukrainian fighter jet had, for some reason, intercepted the airliner and sprayed it with chain-gun fire. As evidence, they pointed to the many small holes in the fuselage, suggesting that these looked like the work of a machine gun shooting another type of high-energy object — bullets."
 
More likely the vague wording is in the interests of being politically sensitive. If a preliminary report committed to a response of "it was a missle", it might provoke the Russians.

Discretion is the better part of valour.
 
prisonermonkeys
More likely the vague wording is in the interests of being politically sensitive. If a preliminary report committed to a response of "it was a missle", it might provoke the Russians.

Discretion is the better part of valour.
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Evidence shows it was a missile.

Saying so would only provoke the people responsible.
 
Dotini
some of the separatists claimed in interviews with TIME that a Ukrainian fighter jet had, for some reason, intercepted the airliner and sprayed it with chain-gun fire. As evidence, they pointed to the many small holes in the fuselage, suggesting that these looked like the work of a machine gun shooting another type of high-energy object — bullets."
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There's a difference between a kinetic energy based machine gun and an high explosive cannon, which is what would most likely have been used by a fighter. The only Ukrainian fighters capable of reaching the airliner with a gun would be the MiG-29 and Su-27, both using 30 mm cannons. The section of the aircraft shot at would have probably been blown away.
 
Exorcet
There's a difference between a kinetic energy based machine gun and an high explosive cannon, which is what would most likely have been used by a fighter. The only Ukrainian fighters capable of reaching the airliner with a gun would be the MiG-29 and Su-27, both using 30 mm cannons. The section of the aircraft shot at would have probably been blown away.
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Oh, I don't know. I've spent many years in the Boeing 777 program. The 41 section is built very stoutly. As for the precise munitions used, it's said there are various rounds available for the 30 mm system, some explosive and some not. In other words, there could have been a mix of munitions used. In some reports, one of the jet engines of the 777 was initially hit by an air-to-air missile, bringing the craft to a lower altitude where the guns were more easily brought to bear on the flight deck.

Suffice at the moment to say the Dutch report is inconclusive. Perhaps hard evidence of missile fragments and serial numbers will be found at the crash scene? Perhaps fragments of solid or capped 30 mm rounds will be found embedded in the flight deck?

We must be prepared for the eventuality that answers to these questions may never be forthcoming. Military, political or technical reasons may preclude any further investigation. We'll have to wait and watch.
 
Dotini
Oh, I don't know. I've spent many years in the Boeing 777 program. The 41 section is built very stoutly. As for the precise munitions used, it's said there are various rounds available for the 30 mm system, some explosive and some not. In other words, there could have been a mix of munitions used. In some reports, one of the jet engines of the 777 was initially hit by an air-to-air missile, bringing the craft to a lower altitude where the guns were more easily brought to bear on the flight deck.

Suffice at the moment to say the Dutch report is inconclusive. Perhaps hard evidence of missile fragments and serial numbers will be found at the crash scene? Perhaps fragments of solid or capped 30 mm rounds will be found embedded in the flight deck?

We must be prepared for the eventuality that answers to these questions may never be forthcoming. Military, political or technical reasons may preclude any further investigation. We'll have to wait and watch.
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Its worth pointing out that this is not the final report, but an interim one to provide details on the information gathered so far.

Out of interest what report do you refer to? Is this actually based on anything other than conjecture?
 
http://aviationweek.com/awin-only/russia-shares-mh17-radar-data
Russian radar tracked an Su-25 in very close proximity. The Su-25 is equipped with R-60 air-to-air heat seeking missiles. It should be a simple and elementary check to examine the the remains of the jet engines for signs of R-60 impact.

"According to the ministry, radars detected the aircraft’s speed drop at 17:20 (Moscow time) and lost it at 17:23."

So the plane was first struck at 17:20 at an altitude of ~32,000', then spent 3 minutes slowly turning and descending before it dropped off radar (5000'?). In this 3 minute period it would have been vulnerable to gunfire.
 
Dotini
http://aviationweek.com/awin-only/russia-shares-mh17-radar-data
Russian radar tracked an Su-25 in very close proximity. The Su-25 is equipped with R-60 air-to-air heat seeking missiles. It should be a simple and elementary check to examine the the remains of the jet engines for signs of R-60 impact.

"According to the ministry, radars detected the aircraft’s speed drop at 17:20 (Moscow time) and lost it at 17:23."

So the plane was first struck at 17:20 at an altitude of ~32,000', then spent 3 minutes slowly turning and descending before it dropped off radar (5000'?). In this 3 minute period it would have been vulnerable to gunfire.
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Is one option, but its certainly not the only one.

With a lot of 'according to...' contained within it, I assume that the actual data has been handed to the investigation teams (crash and legal) and will be included in the final reports.

For now this would still fall under speculation for me.
 
Here is another fairly easy check to do: examine unidentified fragments in the bodies of the pilots and flight crew.

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140910/192...ound-in-Bodies-of-MH17-Crew-Dutch-Safety.html

Unidentified fragments have been found in the bodies of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 pilots, their origin is currently being established, a Dutch Safety Board (DSB) spokeswoman told RIA Novosti Wednesday.
“Some fragments are found in the bodies of flight crew, pilots. We have to investigate them to see if they are fragments of the plane. If they are not, it might be fragments of the objects, coming from outside. We’re not sure yet what these pieces are fragments of. Experts are working with bodies,” DSB spokeswoman Sara Vernooij said.
 
Many thanks for the links, and I agree with Dotini that examination of the fragments may well be telling.

In regard to the interim report a couple of things are interesting, first both the voice recorder and data recorder stopped at 13:20:03 (local time) which would not match up with 'spending three minutes slowly turning' as that would have been recorded as data.

The interim also confirms that the plane broke up at high altitude, with the front of the plane breaking off first, close to the point of last FDR, which would backup that it did not fly on for another 3 minutes.

No mention at all is made from the ATC data (obtained from both the Ukraine and Russia) of a military jet within at least 30km of the plane when contact was lost, the closest plane (30kms) was another commercial jet.

Lets take a closer look at some of the claims and how they stack up to the report (please keep in mind that the investigating team is multi-national).


Claim:Flight MH17 followed an international air route eastbound through Eastern Ukraine. Near Donetsk, the aircraft left the corridor to the north by 14 km from its left edge. Later the aircraft turned to the right, back to the air route, but failed to reach it.

Report: What the above doesn't say is that the changes were made to avoid other air traffic in the area and also to avoid weather. The ATC were in the process of getting the plane back on its original course at the time it was downed.


Claim:According to the ministry, radars detected the aircraft’s speed drop at 17:20 (Moscow time) and lost it at 17:23

Report: It was flying at a constant speed. All flight data and voice recordings stopped at 13:20:03 (local time). The Russian military could have picked up the rest of the plane breaking up as it fell, but it seems unlikely that it would have taken three minutes.

Claim: The Russian military adds that it detected another aircraft at 17:21 ascending toward the Malaysian airlines Boeing 777 at a distance of 3-5 km. It was monitored by two radar stations for four minutes and was not equipped with a secondary identification system.

Report: The report simply does not back this up at all (Russian Civil ATC) and the timeline doesn't match up either, as the report indicates that the plane broke-up at 13:20:03 with the cockpit being the first part to come to ground. As such a plane ascending at that time would have done nothing more than watch.

Raises a few questions to say the least, but as the report says it is interim and they still have a lot to do, some of which could and may change things.
 
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Couldn't the as-yet-unidentified fragments be part of the missile itself? I was under the impression that many missiles don't actually need to score a direct hit before they detonate, but will instead detonate within a set range. They explosion would have been big enough to take down any plane, but fragments of the missile would be released at high velocity.
 
prisonermonkeys
Couldn't the as-yet-unidentified fragments be part of the missile itself? I was under the impression that many missiles don't actually need to score a direct hit before they detonate, but will instead detonate within a set range. They explosion would have been big enough to take down any plane, but fragments of the missile would be released at high velocity.
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Most certainly and given the catastrophic nature of the failure based on the data recorder info so far its highly unlikely that a 30mm cannon, regardless of the nature of the round could have resulted in a total loss of the cockpit with zero voice or data being recorded to indicate it.

It seems very likely that a missile was the cause of it going down, but as the investigation should do, they are waiting until all the evidence is in.
 
Scaff
It seems very likely that a missile was the cause of it going down, but as the investigation should do, they are waiting until all the evidence is in.
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And there's political considerations as well. The cease-fire between Kiev and the separatists is still young, and the Russians and the EU are squaring off like a pair of unfamiliar dogs. To publish "it was a missile", even with supporting evidence, might push someone over the edge.

The one thing that has never sat well with me in all of this is the handling of the international push for an investigation. I, like just about everyone else, want a thorough independent investigation into MH17. And I believe that the Russians want that, too. But what absolutely appalled me was the way certain world leaders - namely my own Prime Minister - publicly called for an independent investigation with one breath, and then blamed Russia for it with the next. How can an investigation be independent when the leaders are so blatantly biased? For example, my government clearly wants to be the ones to bring Putin to heel - they were the first to accuse Russia of being involved, and our foreign minister was visibly annoyed when someone else brokered a cease-fire in Donbass - because they are extremely unpopular domestically and need a show of solidarity, and because they're fixated on the idea of Australia being a long-term global player.

So I don't blame the Russians for being upset. An investigation cannot be independent when world leaders are already getting the noose ready. The reported conspiracy to suppress the report if it was politically inconvenient might be rubbish, but given some of their domestic policies (hiding controversial policies behind national security to avoid scrutiny and using a Royal Commission to attack the opposition's power base), I would not put it past our government to try and suppress the report.
 
Scaff
Many thanks for the links, and I agree with Dotini that examination of the fragments may well be telling.

In regard to the interim report a couple of things are interesting, first both the voice recorder and data recorder stopped at 13:20:03 (local time) which would not match up with 'spending three minutes slowly turning' as that would have been recorded as data.
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I think that it's possible that the 'slowly-turning-plane' could have been the reflective upper-fuselage making its way down.

I'm fairly certain that with the kind of damage suffered in the initial catastrophe the FDRs would have recorded nothing of the descent.

I agree with the line that this report's taken, all it can say is what happened from the aircraft's perspective. The political and military ifs and buts are way beyond the scope of this (or any) investigation.
 
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/21/us-ukraine-crisis-mh17-germany-idUSKBN0HG08520140921


(Reuters) - Survivors of German victims of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 downed over Ukraine plan to sue the country and its president for manslaughter by negligence in 298 cases, the lawyer representing them said on Sunday.

Professor of aviation law Elmar Giemulla, who is representing three families of German victims, said that under international law Ukraine should have closed its air space if it could not guarantee the safety of flights.

"Each state is responsible for the security of its air space," Giemulla said in a statement emailed to Reuters. "If it is not able to do so temporarily, it must close its air space. As that did not happen, Ukraine is liable for the damage."
 
TenEightyOne
I think that it's possible that the 'slowly-turning-plane' could have been the reflective upper-fuselage making its way down.

I'm fairly certain that with the kind of damage suffered in the initial catastrophe the FDRs would have recorded nothing of the descent.

I agree with the line that this report's taken, all it can say is what happened from the aircraft's perspective. The political and military ifs and buts are way beyond the scope of this (or any) investigation.
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The claim that I addressed was that the plane continued (intact) to descend and be shot at passed the point the FDRs stopped recording, in other words that it was an attack sustained over three minutes.

The evidence from the FBR stop and the location of the cockpit area (before the rest of the debris along the flight path) shows that was not the case and whatever downed the flight was sudden and catastrophic.
 
Scaff
The claim that I addressed was that the plane continued (intact) to descend and be shot at passed the point the FDRs stopped recording, in other words that it was an attack sustained over three minutes.

The evidence from the FBR stop and the location of the cockpit area (before the rest of the debris along the flight path) shows that was not the case and whatever downed the flight was sudden and catastrophic.
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I was trying to add to that rather than disagree; I also disagree that anything like a complete plane performed a slow looping circle. Three minutes from 34,000 feet to 0 is over 11,000fpm, that alone would destroy an aircraft almost entirely in the first 25-or-so-seconds. From that point there could still be significant returns from large, flattening pieces of aircraft skin.
 

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