MH17 Crash In Ukraine. Known info in OP.

  • Thread starter Dennisch
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TenEightyOne
We also have to consider that some damage may have been caused by gunshots on the ground - some people may have genuinely thought they were look at a piece of "enemy aircraft", getting accurate news about Ukraine/Russia is difficult enough here, around the Donetsk region at that time I imagine it was pretty-near impossible.
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From the New Straits Times article:

a July 29 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation interview with Michael Bociurkiw, one of the first Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) investigators to arrive at the scene of the disaster, near Donetsk.
Bociurkiw is a Ukrainian-Canadian monitor with OSCE who, along with another colleague, were the first international monitors to reach the wreckage after flight MH17 was brought down over eastern Ukraine.

In the CBC interview, the reporter in the video preceded it with: “The wreckage was still smouldering when a small team from the OSCE got there. No other officials arrived for days”.

“There have been two or three pieces of fuselage that have been really pockmarked with what almost looks like machinegun fire; very, very strong machinegun fire,” Bociurkiw said in the interview.

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In re the "impact on composite liner and steel video", it must be noted the 777 skins are aluminum alloy, with no composite or steel.
 
A somewhat lengthy memo, reproduced in part below,

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/29/obama-should-release-ukraine-evidence/

We, the undersigned former intelligence officers want to share with you our concern about the evidence adduced so far to blame Russia for the July 17 downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17. We are retired from government service and none of us is on the payroll of CNN, Fox News, or any other outlet. We intend this memorandum to provide a fresh, different perspective.

As veteran intelligence analysts accustomed to waiting, except in emergency circumstances, for conclusive information before rushing to judgment, we believe that the charges against Russia should be rooted in solid, far more convincing evidence. And that goes in spades with respect to inflammatory incidents like the shoot-down of an airliner. We are also troubled by the amateurish manner in which fuzzy and flimsy evidence has been served up – some of it via “social media.”

As intelligence professionals we are embarrassed by the unprofessional use of partial intelligence information. As Americans, we find ourselves hoping that, if you indeed have more conclusive evidence, you will find a way to make it public without further delay. In charging Russia with being directly or indirectly responsible, Secretary of State John Kerry has been particularly definitive. Not so the evidence. His statements seem premature and bear earmarks of an attempt to “poison the jury pool.”

William Binney, former Technical Director, World Geopolitical & Military Analysis, NSA; co-founder, SIGINT Automation Research Center (ret.)

Larry Johnson, CIA & State Department (ret.)

Edward Loomis, NSA, Cryptologic Computer Scientist (ret.)

David MacMichael, National Intelligence Council (ret.)

Ray McGovern, former US Army infantry/intelligence officer & CIA analyst (ret.)

Elizabeth Murray, Deputy National Intelligence Officer for Middle East (ret.)

Todd E. Pierce, MAJ, US Army Judge Advocate (Ret.)

Coleen Rowley, Division Counsel & Special Agent, FBI (ret.)

Peter Van Buren, U.S. Department of State, Foreign Service Officer (ret.)

Ann Wright, Col., US Army (ret.); Foreign Service Officer (resigned)
 
VolkswagenX
Something tells me that the results of the investigation will never be made public.
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That would be an understandable result, given the relative unimportance of a single aircraft disaster to a large and grave matter such as relations between major nuclear powers. The lives of millions are being affected by economic sanctions, and many more could be adversely affected by a new cold or hot war.

Even so, there still may be hope that cooler heads will come together in reason and negotiate credible and acceptable solutions. :rolleyes:
 
Dotini
That would be an understandable result, given the relative unimportance of a single aircraft disaster to a large and grave matter such as relations between major nuclear powers. The lives of millions are being affected by economic sanctions, and many more could be adversely affected by a new cold or hot war.

Even so, there still may be hope that cooler heads will come together in reason and negotiate credible and acceptable solutions. :rolleyes:
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I don't see this result as acceptable and I don't think Russians see this as acceptable. Russia and the the people of the east don't seem to fear the results of the investigation because they are confident they had nothing to do with the downing of mh17.

The result of not making the findings of this investigation public is that the hatred Europeans now have for Russia will only get bigger. I would not be suprised if this will be spun into; ' Russia is hiding something and they are trying to block the investigation'.

Most of the mh17 victims come from my country. Most of the people were neutral before this tragedy happend. Now I here people talking about how we should attack Russia. They don't need evidence, just the suggestion that Russia was involved is enough for them. People over here are supporting economic sanctions that will harm our own economy.

These are the results of not making the results of the investigation public and leaving the suggestion that the Russians did it in place.

I also don't believe the neocons will try to avoid a war. These people have proven many times they are maniacs and have no respect for human life if there is money to be made. Nobody was talking about the civilian victims of the Ukrainian army in the east. Are they less dead than the victims of mh17? The people in the east will never trust criminal junta in Kiev. This can only end in more blood ahed and the blame should be with the west who invested billions in orchestrating a coupe.
 
VolkswagenX
Something tells me that the results of the investigation will never be made public.
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They will.

They'll tell you the history of the flight, the timeline of the physical disruption of the aircraft as seen from the aircraft's own systems, then from professional witnesses and then from non-professional witnesses.

Then they'll attempt to explain the cause of the disruption using sources in the same order. That could legitimately stop well short of trying to name the source of any explosive device that detonated near, on or in the aircraft.

Here's a report on an airliner destroyed by an IED over Lockerbie in Scotland, you can see how the reports are put together. Air Investigations are strongly independent of government (and the appalling initial investigation of TWA800 by the FBI demonstrates why they should never be allowed to announce that they're taking over) and concentrate on provable facts. Political observations (other than a possible factual introduction to the nature of a flightpath) are never included.

VolkswagenX
I don't see this result as acceptable and I don't think Russians see this as acceptable. Russia and the the people of the east don't seem to fear the results of the investigation because they are confident they had nothing to do with the downing of mh17.

The result of not making the findings of this investigation public is that the hatred Europeans now have for Russia will only get bigger. I would not be suprised if this will be spun into; ' Russia is hiding something and they are trying to block the investigation'.
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Calm down dude, dangle them in a bucket or something. You're presuming they're not releasing the report, but why? Do you know they're not? Do you have source?
 
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VolkswagenX
I agree! The families deserve to know!
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Please could you answer the question that you've been asked twice...why do you think it won't be made public?

Did you read the Lockerbie report I linked? Do you think it's conceivable that the MH17 report might take a similar format?
 
Isn't the investigation in the hands of the Dutch? Aren't they on track to deliver something soon?

It's that US intel that VolkswagenX is worried about, isn't it? Might be nice to have, but it may be classified. Perhaps the same for the communications tapes held by Ukraine Secret Police.
 
TenEightyOne
Please could you answer the question that you've been asked twice...why do you think it won't be made public?

Did you read the Lockerbie report I linked? Do you think it's conceivable that the MH17 report might take a similar format?
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I don't like your tone and you didn't really respond to what I said.
 
VolkswagenX
I don't like your tone and you didn't really respond to what I said.
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You still haven't answered why you say "I think it won't be made public". You then refer me to what you said (I presume) about the political situation. This is an air crash report, not The World At One.

Did you read the Lockerbie report? Do you think it's conceivable that this very-similar-incident (aircraft critically disrupted by an explosive device at cruising altitude) would be reported the same way?

There's no room for politicking in there and no need. So, when you say "I think it won't be made public!" I believe you're confusing what might actually be in there. The investigators don't have to address the source of the device and are not bound (or expected) to form a view on that.
 
TenEightyOne
You still haven't answered why you say "I think it won't be made public". You then refer me to what you said (I presume) about the political situation. This is an air crash report, not The World At One.

Did you read the Lockerbie report? Do you think it's conceivable that this very-similar-incident (aircraft critically disrupted by an explosive device at cruising altitude) would be reported the same way?

There's no room for politicking in there and no need. So, when you say "I think it won't be made public!" I believe you're confusing what might actually be in there. The investigators don't have to address the source of the device and are not bound (or expected) to form a view on that.
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It seems VolkswagenX fears the Dutch may have formed the potentially mistaken prejudgment that Russia is the responsible party yet not be in possession of all the relevant facts. The Dutch and others are seething with anger and vengeance, yet data is potentially being withheld that could disabuse them of these dangerous emotions. It is a specific and concrete concern for people, whereas your general requirements for investigative reports is a more distant, more abstract concern which fails to address Mr X's intent.
 
Can people please stop with the nonsense that the investigation is Dutch only and therefore immediately biased, as that is factually incorrect.

The investigation team is being lead by the Dutch, but consists of a team of investigators from Ukraine, Malaysia, Australia, Germany, the United States, the United Kingdom, Russia and the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO). Of the team of 24 only four are Dutch.

Source: http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/fm/2014_07_23_PB_OVV_neemt_leiding_over_ENG_DEF.pdf
 
Dotini
It seems VolkswagenX fears the Dutch may have formed the potentially mistaken prejudgment that Russia is the responsible party yet not be in possession of all the relevant facts. The Dutch and others are seething with anger and vengeance, yet data is potentially being withheld that could disabuse them of these dangerous emotions. It is a specific and concrete concern for people, whereas your general requirements for investigative reports is a more distant, more abstract concern which fails to address Mr X's intent.
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The Dutch seeking revenge is nonsense. They, at least the people I know, want to know what happened. And they want justice being served.

Those calling for revenge against Russia are those who don't listen when facts are thrown around, the knee jerk types. They hear about sanctions against Russia and automatically assume that that only has to do with the crash.
They don't want to hear that the crash is just a small part of this all.
 
Dennisch
The Dutch seeking revenge is nonsense. They, at least the people I know, want to know what happened. And they want justice being served.

Those calling for revenge against Russia are those who don't listen when facts are thrown around, the knee jerk types. They hear about sanctions against Russia and automatically assume that that only has to do with the crash.
They don't want to hear that the crash is just a small part of this all.
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Oh stop being so sensible and Dutch, everyone knows Dutchland (because I think they don't know where the Dutch are from) is West Germany and it's still 1982 :D

I can't think of a single concern if this was an inquiry being conducted solely by the Dutch, even though as @Scaff points out it isn't. Personally I think of Hollandland as a very neutral place in terms of international politics.

I'm struggling to think of any historical case where an air accident report was disputed on anything other than pure engineering pedantry. Certainly not politically, they just don't produce that kind of conclusion outside a general description of the scenario. People seem to be hoping for a warts-and-all overview of the military situation across the Ukraine in this report, it's never going to illustrate that because it's outside the scope. All it can do is report what physically happened to the aircraft, the wreckage won't tell you the intent although it may reveal the missile type/family. Conclusions about that evidence (in a political sense) will still fall beyond the scope of the report.
 
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Scaff
Can people please stop with the nonsense that the investigation is Dutch only and therefore immediately biased, as that is factually incorrect.

The investigation team is being lead by the Dutch, but consists of a team of investigators from Ukraine, Malaysia, Australia, Germany, the United States, the United Kingdom, Russia and the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO). Of the team of 24 only four are Dutch.

Source: http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/fm/2014_07_23_PB_OVV_neemt_leiding_over_ENG_DEF.pdf
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And then we have the "who's done it" investigation:
This is the biggest criminal investigation ever conducted in the Netherlands.

"Never before have we had a murder case with so many victims," said Wim de Bruin from the Dutch prosecution service, fielding press inquiries from all over the world. Passengers from 10 different countries were on board Flight MH17.

Ten Dutch prosecutors and 200 police officers are involved in gathering and preparing the evidence for a criminal trial.
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BBC Source
 
Denur
And then we have the "who's done it" investigation:
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I guess I only ever think of the accident report, from my point of view that's completely severable from the criminal investigation. The accident will be evidentiary to that, of course.

Whatever the outcomes of either investigation the answers are unlikely to satisfy a lot of people (a minority I'm sure, but a vocal and distrusting one). To my mind that distrust is without foundation.

Accident reports are made by engineers who, in my experience at least, are incapable of engineering-with-political-allegiance, data simply isn't that kind of animal. And nor is an engineer. Following that, I don't see any benefit to the Hollandlanders to pervert the criminal inquiry, it might be easy for someone further away to presume that Europe acts as one bonded country but in my experience any attempt to make the Dutch think one way is immediately likely to make them think the other - they're quite happy to hold their own considered opinion regardless of those around them.

Here's a question that I'm unsure of the answer to; in a scenario where the accident report says "the aircraft was clearly destroyed by a surface-to-air-missile of type A launched from position X,Y" then does the criminal inquiry stop? At that point this could be an Act of War, I guess? In that case a criminal investigation is moot, I'd imagine?
 
A 56 minute radio interview with Ray McGovern, retired 27 year CIA analyst. He discusses MH17, the war in Ukraine, Syrian war, and CIA's spying on and effort to intimidate staff of the Senate Intelligence Committee. The radio show is progressive, McGovern himself is revered in libertarian circles.

http://prn.fm/cant-happening-080614/
 
Scaff
The investigation team is being lead by the Dutch, but consists of a team of investigators from Ukraine, Malaysia, Australia, Germany, the United States, the United Kingdom, Russia and the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO). Of the team of 24 only four are Dutch.
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Here is a report, of uncertain provenance, which makes disturbing claims. Perhaps those able to translate Russian or who have better access to the investigation can verify or deny these claims.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-ca...ium-signed-a-non-disclosure-agreement/5397194
On August 8, Ukraine, the Netherlands, Australia and Belgium signed a non-disclosure agreement pertaining to data obtained during the investigation into the causes of the crash of Malaysian Airlines MH17.

In the framework of the 4-country agreement signed on 8 August between Ukraine, the Netherlands, Belgium and Australia, information on the progress and results of the investigation of the disaster will remain classified.

This was confirmed at a briefing in Kiev under the auspices of the office of the Prosecutor General Yuri Boychenko. In his words, the results of the investigation will be published once completed only if a consensus agreement of all parties that have signed the agreement prevails.

Any one of the signatories has the right to veto the publication of the results of the investigation without explanation.

Following the signing of this agreement, the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine ratified the agreement and allowed for the participation of Malaysian staff to participate in the investigation.


 
http://www.opednews.com/articles/MH...ent-Barack-Obama-POTUS_Russia-140824-786.html

On August 12th, another pro-Ukrainian-Government 'news' site, gordonua.com, headlined, as auto-translated by google, "GPU: The results of the investigation [into the] crash [of] the Boeing 777 will be released with the consent of the parties," and said, "Information about the accident MH17 in the Donetsk region will be published in obtaining the consent of all the parties that are involved in the investigation." UNIAN was cited there as gordonua's sole source. 'News' media didn't probe the matter further.

http://gordonua.com/news/mh17crash/...any-po-soglasiyu-storon-sledstviya-36089.html


http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/5632...ine-air-traffic-control-malaysia-airlines.htm

Mark Lyall Grant, Britain's envoy to the UN, said the preliminary report of the investigations conducted into the deadly downing would not be classified.



http://my.firedoglake.com/operation...ves-that-mh-17-deviated-14-miles-to-the-left/
The left wing of MH-17 shows no sign of a shrapnel blast. The only heavy shrapnel blast damage is around the pilots cockpit window, which is improbable in light of the fact that a BUK missile detonates in proximity and not directly upon a target. The missile detonates by proximity fuse at an approximately distance of 70 feet from the target. It normally targets the larger part of an object due to it’s radar. The probability of a detonation 70 feet distant that creates a massive hole right upon the pilot seat lower window requires astronomically impossible odds.
 
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The blast damage report appears incorrect (and then gets silly), the others seem to cover the story about the politicking between Russia and Ukraine over the incident.

That will not form part of the air crash report and they have no right of veto over it, whatever agreement they may think is in place. Perhaps they refer to conclusions being formed by parties outside the investigation teams, but I can't see that.

What you're saying is that the Dutch (home of the Hague), the Americans (home of Boeing) and Malaysia (operator of the aircraft) are somehow going to allow Russia/Ukraine a veto in the investigation of an aircraft loss that killed nearly 300 people.

That's really ludicrous. Do you have any original sources that aren't just people like you-and-me blogging about this rumoured agreement or what it's purported to cover?
 
Only this.
http://gordonua.com/news/mh17crash/...any-po-soglasiyu-storon-sledstviya-36089.html


And this.
http://www.unian.net/politics/95039...budut-oglashenyi-pri-soglasii-storon-gpu.html

And this:
http://nsnbc.me/2014/08/14/serious-...mh17-investigation-led-by-dutch-safety-board/
The DSB’s reply to our questions about independent media’s access to the raw data was:

The first findings will be published in the preliminary report expected in a couple of weeks. All the information that is necessary and relevant to explain what the cause of the crash is, will be published in the final report of the investigation. The original sources will not be disclosed after publication (not after the publication of the preliminary nor after publication of the final report). This is according to the Dutch law which the Dutch Safety Board works to. (emphasis added).
 
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Not much doubt that a jet ascended to the plane, that's how missiles work after all.

So an online newspaper blogger was refused access to FDR information by the Safety Board, that's hardly surprising, I think the very fact that they feel their knowledge puts them in a better position to evaluate the accuracy of the FDR shows just how poor their position is. Is there really anything other than click-bait noise?
 
Dotini
Source?
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I checked, in this case the rockets aren't powered by a jet (if indeed they were launched from BUK), they have a two-stage solid rocket motor.

Either way, missiles use powerful engines to climb, I'm not clear why that's even in doubt?

EDIT: Ah, unless by "jet" you mean "jet aeroplane", the article didn't say that :D
 
TenEightyOne
I checked, in this case the rockets aren't powered by a jet (if indeed they were launched from BUK), they have a two-stage solid rocket motor.

Either way, missiles use powerful engines to climb, I'm not clear why that's even in doubt?

EDIT: Ah, unless by "jet" you mean "jet aeroplane", the article didn't say that :D
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What article?
 

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