MH17 Crash In Ukraine. Known info in OP.

[TenEightyOne]

It's basically great news for those of us who were worried about an expanding conflict. There will no new Cold War, or nuclear confrontation between NATO and Russia. That's news worth getting excited about, yessirree, wahoo!

You remind me of the man in the indicator (turn signal) joke;

Driver: Is my indicator working?

Man: Yes. No. Yes. No. Yes. No...

Today we're at the juncture where there will be no new Cold War and nor will there ever be nuclear confrontation. Tomorrow you'll see a headline that says "Could Cold War Start Again?" and you'll be out digging a shelter before you can say "panic buying"

 

[Denur]

Dear Scaff, I truly hope you are right, and I sincerely hope that the team do hold an independent and transparent investigation. 👍

Why on Earth would it not be independent? Are you suggesting that the Dutch had anything to do with the downing of the plane, or that it makes a difference to us whether the culprits are Ukrainian forces or separatists? All we want is to bring the remains of the men, women and children home and to seek justice against those who brought the plane down.

 

[squadops]

All we want is to bring the remains of the men, women and children home and to seek justice against those who brought the plane down.

I guess that part is too easily lost in many eyes, I for one wish your people the respect and time they deserve 👍

 

[Scaff]

On the example you show what is the reference material that the bullets when through, since it may be harder than air craft aluminum. @Scaff

The source doesn't specifically state what the material is, but its likely to be hardened to a degree given that its the result of a 30mm chain gun from an A-10.

The question that it raises for me is that SU-25 uses a GSh-2-30 30mm cannon (with a 250 round capacity) and the A10 (which is providing us with the only true reference image we currently have) uses a GAU-8 (with a 1,200 round capacity). The cyclical rate for the GAU-8 is also 4,200 vs 3,000, yet despite a lower cyclical rate and a significantly smaller round capacity the two images would appear to show a much tighter groupings and more sustained fire (keep in mind the claims of rounds from both sides) from the SU-25.

As such its more than enough to raise a lot of questions and certainly not to jump to conclusions, and also given the fact that the BMP AFV (used by both sides) is commonly fitted with a 30mm cannon.

So for me to take that one image and then move to the conclusion that its was a 30mm cannon fired from an SU-25 is while not impossible, certainly not the only possibility.

 

[Exorcet]

Also, keep in mind that for the Su-25 to shoot the 777 with cannons, the latter would almost need to be falling out of the sky already as the Su-25 can't catch it from behind, and would likely end up ramming it if it tried from the front (especially after climbing at a snails pace to an altitude it's not designed to work in).

The Su-25 is a ground attack plane.

 

[GTsail]

The Su-25 is a ground attack plane.

Can the SU-25 even get up to 30,000 feet to shoot down MH17?

What is the service ceiling of a SU-25?

 

[Exorcet]

Wiki says about 23,000 ft. While Service ceiling is not an absolute altitude limit, to maneuver into gun range 10000 ft above the ceiling is unlikely.

The lack of a radar would also make shooting an oncoming target dangerous. Tail on would be near impossible given the Su-25's Mach limit. I also believe that the gun points down slightly since it's an air to ground aircraft.

It should be noted though that 30 mm was the standard caliber for aircraft guns in the USSR. The MiG-29 and Su-27 are also 30 mm cannon carriers, but I don't see why a gun would even be used.

 

[mister dog]

I guess that was a dutch bird.

 

[Rage Racer]

I guess that was a dutch bird.

Because it was Putin who shot the Boeing, right?

 

[mister dog]

Because it was Putin who shot the Boeing, right?

Yes powerful Russian President shot it down with only his slingshot whilst flying on tamed bird :

 

[Sanji Himura]

That is a bit out of line there, especially considering the fact that the investigators barely had a day at the site if at all because of the land mines on the road, regardless of who placed them.

 

[Denur]

Another plane with unidentified remains arrived today in the Netherlands. Only one casket this time, but treated with the same respect as for all those that came before. Too soon for (Putin) jokes.

 

[Dotini]

Because it was Putin who shot the Boeing, right?

Now now, RR, don't troll him.

We know US intelligence sources have said the identities and nationalities of those who brought down the plane are unknown. They even say it's possible the culprit is a rogue Ukrainian military person.

The US is in the process of finding its part in a settlement of the overall Ukraine issue. This requires completing the MH17 investigation and negotiations with Russia.

Accordingly, the US and our satraps are moving inexorably away from demonizing Russia.

 

[mister dog]

That is a bit out of line there, especially considering the fact that the investigators barely had a day at the site if at all because of the land mines on the road, regardless of who placed them.

It's gonna be hard to prove that it was really the seperatists using a Russian BUK, seeing it's such a mess over there at ground zero and the evidence has probably long been tampered with. Black box and fragments will likely prove it was a rocket, but Russia is gonna claim it came somewhere from Ukraine anyway...

Thing is if you've been following the events IMO it's pretty obvious already who's the culprit here, and believe me when i say that Putin isn't very popular in Holland at the moment, hence the bird **** reference.

 

[Rage Racer]

Thing is if you've been following the events IMO it's pretty obvious already who's the culprit here, and believe me when i say that Putin isn't very popular in Holland at the moment, hence the bird **** reference.

Just because you've seen a big headline like PUTIN'S MISSILE on a newspaper, and media around you telling PUTIN PUTIN PUTIN, it's obvious for you and you simply can't pass any other theories into your head. Right?

And they say Russian propaganda is imposive. Daym...

 

[mister dog]

Just because you've seen a big headline like PUTIN'S MISSILE on a newspaper, and media around you telling PUTIN PUTIN PUTIN, it's obvious for you and you simply can't pass any other theories into your head. Right?

And they say Russian propaganda is imposive. Daym...

I read about it in the past weeks and i've drawn my own conclusions yes, but not because of impressive headlines.

 

[Rage Racer]

The only obvious thing for me here is that there is nothing obvious.

 

[Rage Racer]

So, why is it so quiet about the MH17 now? Maybe because...
http://www.nst.com.my/node/20925

 

[GTracer98]

So, why is it so quiet about the MH17 now? Maybe because...
http://www.nst.com.my/node/20925

Wait, am I reading it right?? So, basically, Russia was right...

 

[VolkswagenX]

So, why is it so quiet about the MH17 now? Maybe because...
http://www.nst.com.my/node/20925

People were pointing fingers at Putin before the plane even hit the ground. That should've been a red flag to most sane people. Like the bogus claims made about Assad using chemical weapons and the maidan snipers, this story will be ignored till they can fabricate something new that they can blame Putin for.

 

[Dotini]

So, why is it so quiet about the MH17 now? Maybe because...
http://www.nst.com.my/node/20925

The New Straits Times is Malaysia's oldest newspaper still in print, right wing and pro-government. So it's surely an acceptable source. I wonder how long before this gets into the MSM?

 

[VolkswagenX]

The New Straits Times is Malaysia's oldest newspaper still in print, right wing and pro-government. So it's surely an acceptable source. I wonder how long before this gets into the MSM?

Like I said before, the corporate media will ignore this. They have a goal and that is demonizing Russia.

Here is a fair interview with RT's Peter Lavelle.
http://www.ancreport.com/podcast/pe...out-the-corporate-medias-coverage-of-ukraine/

For the people suffering from Russia fobia go youtube cnn's Chris Cuomo interviewing Peter Lavelle. Chris Cuomo looks like an idiot in that but I'm sure some of you would rather see somebody committing character assasination then being a fair interviewer.

 

[Scaff]

None of which is any more or less conclusive that anything we have seen or has been claimed yet.

Why is this any more independent or objective that US claims?

Its not and it certainly doesn't mean Russia was right all along, nor does it mean that they weren't.

Please don't go accusing one side of bias and then accepting what is clear speculation and conjecture from the other as its it were fact.

 

[Dotini]

Why is this any more independent or objective that US claims?

The New Straits Times is a virtual organ of the ruling Barisan Nasional; almost a propaganda mouthpiece of the State of Malaysia. On July 22nd, BN youth were protesting at the Russian Embassy. Now the national newspaper is suggesting their national airline's 777 was shot down by military jets of the Ukrainian government. Surely this hints at a major change of attitude on the part of the Malaysian government?

We know US intelligence sources have said the identities and nationalities of those who brought down the plane are unknown. They even say it's possible the culprit is a rogue Ukrainian military person.

So yes, it is way too early for anyone to be doing any victory laps or serving up humble pie.

On the other hand, the investigation seems to be in a quiet phase of composing some sort of report. It will be interesting to see what they disclose.

 

[mister dog]

People were pointing fingers at Putin before the plane even hit the ground. That should've been a red flag to most sane people.

Probably has more to do with that hastily removed tweet from the separatist colonel that they 'successfully downed an Antonov'.

 

[Scaff]

The New Straits Times is a virtual organ of the ruling Barisan Nasional; almost a propaganda mouthpiece of the State of Malaysia. On July 22nd, BN youth were protesting at the Russian Embassy. Now the national newspaper is suggesting their national airline's 777 was shot down by military jets of the Ukrainian government. Surely this hints at a major change of attitude on the part of the Malaysian government?

It does indeed, but that still doesn't in anyway provide any form of substantive evidence and certainly doesn't (using your own previous standards) come from an 'independent' source.

We know US intelligence sources have said the identities and nationalities of those who brought down the plane are unknown. They even say it's possible the culprit is a rogue Ukrainian military person.

Which at face value is actually a pretty accurate statement based on what we do adn don't know right now.

So yes, it is way too early for anyone to be doing any victory laps or serving up humble pie.

Exactly, and a long way from the claim that 'Russia was right' made by another member.

On the other hand, the investigation seems to be in a quiet phase of composing some sort of report. It will be interesting to see what they disclose.

Something which is neither unusual (public speculation should not be a part of an investigation of any sort in my personal opinion) nor should be viewed as suspicious.

 

[Rage Racer]

Probably has more to do with that hastily removed tweet from the separatist colonel that they 'successfully downed an Antonov'.

What do you do to a tweet turned out incorrect? You remove it.
Have you ever had an idea that the people who tweeted about the "downed An" could be different from those who shot? The observers alleged with DPR see a big white plane falling. What's their first assumption? "Ah, it must be our guys downed another transport plane of the Kievan Nazis!" - sure, because Novorossiya doesn't have any planes like this.

I hope you understand that the 'removed tweet' does not prove anything.

 

[mister dog]

What do you do to a tweet turned out incorrect? You remove it.
Have you ever had an idea that the people who tweeted about the "downed An" could be different from those who shot? The observers alleged with DPR see a big white plane falling. What's their first assumption? "Ah, it must be our guys downed another transport plane of the Kievan Nazis!" - sure, because Novorossiya doesn't have any planes like this.

I hope you understand that the 'removed tweet' does not prove anything.

It doesn't prove anything, but it's very suspicious especially seeing a separatist commander tweeted it that is supposed to be directing their operations.

 

[ExigeEvan]

I don't think the entry-exit hole analysis theories are correct. I would go into more depth but I'm limited by the material I can share.

This video off youtube shows that you don't just get deformation in the direction of the projectile. In fact, the ripple effect on thin skins can mean iit's difficult to predict how the skin will set after a perforation.

Watch "High Velocity (1000 m/s) Impact on Composite Line…" on YouTube
High Velocity (1000 m/s) Impact on Composite Line…:

 

[TenEightyOne]

I don't think the entry-exit hole analysis theories are correct. I would go into more depth but I'm limited by the material I can share.

This video off youtube shows that you don't just get deformation in the direction of the projectile. In fact, the ripple effect on thin skins can mean iit's difficult to predict how the skin will set after a perforation.

Watch "High Velocity (1000 m/s) Impact on Composite Line…" on YouTube
High Velocity (1000 m/s) Impact on Composite Line…:

Aditionally there are two close skins. Add the fact that upon "tearing" the skin was in 400mph airflow which could well have increased for parts that separated from the airplane while it was falling.

I still think the LHS cockpit panel was blown away from the LHS, ie by an explosion at the right for'd of the plane. That would also explain the entire separation of that roof section and why the empannage seemed mostly "intact".

We also have to consider that some damage may have been caused by gunshots on the ground - some people may have genuinely thought they were look at a piece of "enemy aircraft", getting accurate news about Ukraine/Russia is difficult enough here, around the Donetsk region at that time I imagine it was pretty-near impossible.

The reconstruction is going to be a long, difficult one, as is the analysis. Great video though, I enjoyed that an unreasonable amount