MH17 Crash In Ukraine. Known info in OP.

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Latest news is that the "Multinational Police" being sent by Dutch and Australian authorities will be allowed to use weapons after all. This could potentially get quite ugly.

I know that too which is a bit older than the news on the current fighting that I heard about this morning.

 

[Xilor]

I know that too which is a bit older than the news on the current fighting that I heard about this morning.

It was previously said that the Police would be unarmed, the news that they would show up with weapons after all just came out today.

As for the fighting, the experts were reportedly unable to reach the crash site for the 2nd day in a row today. But it needs to be said, the fighting is a direct result of the Ukrainian govt.'s offensive in the Donetsk area. So the West could, I don't know, stop pointing the finger at Russia and put pressure on Ukraine to pull their troops out of the area?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

It was previously said that the Police would be unarmed, the news that they would show up with weapons after all just came out today.

Yes I heard about early edition like (4am here) which would constitute today, and then I heard later on in the morning that there was fighting around that area that made recovery difficult. I also heard last night about the prep for this task force...

As for the fighting, the experts were reportedly unable to reach the crash site for the 2nd day in a row today. But it needs to be said, the fighting is a direct result of the Ukrainian govt.'s offensive in the Donetsk area. So the West could, I don't know, stop pointing the finger at Russia and put pressure on Ukraine to pull their troops out of the area?

Yeah I agree the west could, but they want to make sure Russia is painted as an evil perhaps to get sway in other areas that Russia isn't agreeing with the west on. Or in general just to weaken Russia's sway no matter what because they want them to never leave their current status of power.

Anyways I guess other than that nothing new has come about in the afternoon or later day that has really changed since this morning...

 

[Pupik]

i must say that is very gracious of you my führer
however, i wonder why you think that would make any difference

Nice, you re-join with an extremely similar username and call a mod the equivalent of Hitler.

You're simple-minded enough to accept every half-baked conspiracy theory, yet not wise enough to read and follow the rules nor have any respect for membership at GTPlanet. You just have a problem with any type of authority, and life will be extremely difficult until that gets though your little pea brain. Please go away from our site forever.

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I've been on a flights which were diverted by weather; one of them was diverted off its normal flight plan by more than 150km for what would be a very valid reason (although I wasn't due to land in Joplin, the system would affect my flight to Chicago...landed an hour late on a Sunday afternoon). The other was just summer thunderstorms; landing 30 miles away until things leveled off and refueling was no big deal.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I've been on a flights which were diverted by weather; one of them was diverted off its normal flight plan by more than 150km for what would be a very valid reason (although I wasn't due to land in Joplin, the system would affect my flight to Chicago...landed an hour late on a Sunday afternoon). The other was just summer thunderstorms; landing 30 miles away until things leveled off and refueling was no big deal.

You tell the story so glibly with no apparent idea of how much danger you were in; planes only ever divert as part of conspiracies, you're a lucky guy, the missiles/Al Qaueeeda/aliens/ghost-of-Elvis must have been busy elsewhere that day.

 

[Pupik]

Well, a half-full MD-83 from Palm Beach is the ideal vessel for transporting known members of the Illuminati.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

So the West could, I don't know, stop pointing the finger at Russia and put pressure on Ukraine to pull their troops out of the area?

You're right. They could do just that. And in doing so, they would give complete control over the crash site to the separatists, who aggressively exerted control over it before Kiev's offensive. With the approval of the West, no-one will ever get close.

It doesn't matter what our Prime Minister says. He's not a very good Prime Minister. You shouldn't bother listening to him; nobody here does, and with any luck, nobody will have to for much longer.

The Australian people want answers. I can't speak for the Dutch, but I'm sure they feel the same way. If Russia is responsible, we will accept that. If Kiev is responsible, we will accept that. If a race of reptile people living in secret underground did it, we will accept that. But first, we need evidence. And to get it, we need a full investigation. And in order for that to happen, we need Moscow's co-operation. It's in Russia's interests to support the investigation - if the Kremlin is as innocent as you insist they are, then they have nothing to fear from the investigation, because no evidence of their wrongdoing will be found.

But the longer they stall, the longer they delay, and the longer they continue to support the separatists - and, in doing so, indirectly prevent the investigation from taking place - then the more it looks like they have something to hide. Actions speak louder than words, and while the Kremlin might say they are innocent, what they are actually doing isn't very convincing.

 

[Dotini]

http://www.globalresearch.ca/german...f-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/5394111

This website has published an extremely high resolution pdf photo of what is claimed to be a portion of the 41 (cockpit) section of MH17. It is claimed that entry and exit artifacts of shells are clearly seen.

No other such hi-res photos, nor even the voice recording from the cockpit have been made available.

The US maintains the downing of MH17 was a tragic mistake.

 

[GTracer98]

So what I'm understanding is that it wasn't hit by a surface to air missile?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

So what I'm understanding is that it wasn't hit by a surface to air missile?

Given the speed of the plane, the speed of something like a conventional artillery shell, and the way MH17 was unsighted from the ground, it would be a phenomenally unlucky shot to have come from anything other than a missile with targeting capacity.

 

[Grayfox]

Given the speed of the plane, the speed of something like a conventional artillery shell, and the way MH17 was unsighted from the ground, it would be a phenomenally unlucky shot to have come from anything other than a missile with targeting capacity.

Unless it was a 1 in a what 1,000,000,000,000 shot that hit the plane

 

[Dotini]

For those unable to link to the article, it is SPECULATED that the holes are consistent with 30mm shells from the Su-25.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Even though there has been no evidence of any other aircraft in the immediate vicinity at the time? That theory was debunked when Carlos, the Spanish air traffic controller who conveniently only ever spoke Ukrainian, was discredited.

 

[Dotini]

http://www.globalresearch.ca/mh17-v...us-kiev-cover-up-of-failed-false-flag/5393317

Another article with outrageous claims and speculation. Feel free to debunk and condemn. It will be fun to see who eats crow.

Edit:
Below is a blurb from the linked article that I'm eager to have debunked:

---------------------

American investigative reporter Robert Parry (who broke many of the Iran-Contra scandal for AP and Newsweek in the 80′s) published this on Consortium News, July 20th (based on his CIA source):

“What I’ve been told by one source, who has provided accurate information on similar matters in the past, is that U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms.”

This account is fully consistent with

1) the “anonymous US intelligence officers’ briefing from US mainstream media on Tuesday July 22,” as reported,

2) the briefing by the Russian Ministry of Defense on July 21 and,

3) Alexandr Zhilin‘s analysis previously covered.

------------------------
End Edit.
‎

 

[TenEightyOne]

Below is a blurb from the linked article that I'm eager to have debunked:
‎

Just the same stuff rechurned again, why are you persisting? Just because people continue to repeat baseless rumours it doesn't make them any more true

We don't know why it changed course ('some unknown reason') : yes we do.

We don't know why it changed altitude : yes we do (I've even linked you to the NOTAM twice)

A source who's been accurate before : Not doing too well this time

The bit where they improved the visibility by making the plane fly in better weather... really?

This is just a self-admitted and self-contradictory rehash of the rest of the web; considering the accurate single-source there's an interesting disclaimer at the top;

21WIRE has compiled this report with the help of many contributors and references from English-speaking media, as well as material translated from Russian and Ukrainian media sources, along with other historical references to provide context. Our objective is to get as close to the truth as possible. Although many revelations will appear to be self-evident, we still encourage the public to draw there own conclusions regarding this pivotal event...

 

[Dotini]

Here is the tiniest of hints that the MSM is beginning to walk the dog back.

http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1.../p2p-80870402/

U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the SA-11 was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems.

Another, even earlier hint from the UK media:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...r-9619143.html

A senior Russian officer has claimed that a Ukrainian military jet was flying just a few kilometres from the Malaysia Airlines plane minutes before it was downed, while also refuting allegations that it had provided separatists with BUK missile launchers.

In a statement to a press conference today, Lieutenant-General Andrei Kartopolov said the Defence Ministry would like to know “why the military jet was flying along [the same civil aviation lines] at almost the same time and at the same level as a passenger plane.”

The SU-25 was, Mr Kartopolov says, gaining height and reached a distance of three to five kilometres from the Boeing 777.

Russian officials say they have evidence of the jet’s presence following images taken by the Rostov monitoring centre, and has urged the US to release satellite images taken at the time of the crash.

Mr Kartopolov, a senior member of the Russian military forces, said that Ukraine’s claims that no military jet operated near the site of the crash last Thursday are “false.”

He told the room that the jets “can briefly climb up to 10,000metres [and are] regularly equipped with air-to-air missiles R-60 that can capture and destroy targets of a distance up to 12km and up to 5km as guaranteed.”

 

[Rage Racer]

A bit off the topic, but interesting:

Ukrainian media claims this video as a proof of rocket fire on Ukraine from Russian territory, a "feed from American satellite":


But, some bloggers have found out, that this "map" is made of a screenshot from Lock On: Flaming Cliffs 2 game:

Hahahahahahaha

This is how Ukraine makes the "evidence". Some of you guys still believe the "intercepted conversation" crap?

But the longer they stall, the longer they delay, and the longer they continue to support the separatists - and, in doing so, indirectly prevent the investigation from taking place - then the more it looks like they have something to hide. Actions speak louder than words, and while the Kremlin might say they are innocent, what they are actually doing isn't very convincing.

Uhm, can you please remind me how the separatists are obstructing the investigation?

 

[Dotini]

Apparently Angela Merkel is becoming annoyed with US propaganda about its energy policy.

http://www.presseportal.de/pm/59019...mh17-nicht-von-boden-luft-rakete-abgeschossen

‘ the shooting down of the Malaysian
Boeing on July 17 in the Eastern Ukraine “could not have been hit by a
surface to air defense missile” .

This is the assessment of retired Colonel Bernd Biedermann in an
article for the daily newspaper published in Berlin “new Germany”
(Thursday edition)

 

[TenEightyOne]

Apparently Angela Merkel is becoming annoyed with US propaganda about its energy policy.

http://www.presseportal.de/pm/59019...mh17-nicht-von-boden-luft-rakete-abgeschossen

‘ the shooting down of the Malaysian
Boeing on July 17 in the Eastern Ukraine “could not have been hit by a
surface to air defense missile” .

Literally true but misleading. Is anyone saying it was hit by the missile?

Since the first wreckage photos it's looked to me like it was fatally damaged by an external aerial burst. The telemetry concurs, from what little I've read; the aircraft was destroyed by rapid depressurisation caused by blast damage.

 

[Dotini]

Is anyone saying it was hit by the missile?

I take it you studiously avoided looking at the pdf photo showing what appear to be 30mm bullet holes?

 

[Exorcet]

Su-25's aren't a good choice for hunting 777's. They have no radar, they're slower than the airliner, and their air to air weapons are extremely short ranged.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I take it you studiously avoided looking at the pdf photo showing what appear to be 30mm bullet holes?

No, simply didn't see a PDF photo. If it's the one I'm thinking of then I looked at it at the time, I believe @Dennisch posted it. If I recall correctly then I questioned whether small-arms fire had been deployed on the panel once it was on the ground.

On consideration I thought the damage was consistent with an explosion on the other side of the the plane, effectively blowing the lower LH cockpit side away from the aircraft's centreline.

You seem to think I take a very biased line on this but you're the one providing the whizz-bang-poop-poop-OMG-TEH-ALIENZ theories

 

[Scaff]

A bit off the topic, but interesting:

Ukrainian media claims this video as a proof of rocket fire on Ukraine from Russian territory, a "feed from American satellite":


But, some bloggers have found out, that this "map" is made of a screenshot from Lock On: Flaming Cliffs 2 game:

Hahahahahahaha

This is how Ukraine makes the "evidence". Some of you guys still believe the "intercepted conversation" crap?


Uhm, can you please remind me how the separatists are obstructing the investigation?

While I would not be surprised about the media on either side making stuff up, could you please actually supply links that back up the claim you are making.

I've also taken down your other video, please keep in mind that near 300 people lost their lives in this incident and as such the poor taste displayed in that video is not something this site would ever want to be linked with. Please do the decent thing and show some respect for the people that died.

Apparently Angela Merkel is becoming annoyed with US propaganda about its energy policy.

http://www.presseportal.de/pm/59019...mh17-nicht-von-boden-luft-rakete-abgeschossen

‘ the shooting down of the Malaysian
Boeing on July 17 in the Eastern Ukraine “could not have been hit by a
surface to air defense missile” .

This is the assessment of retired Colonel Bernd Biedermann in an
article for the daily newspaper published in Berlin “new Germany”
(Thursday edition)

I take it you studiously avoided looking at the pdf photo showing what appear to be 30mm bullet holes?

Personally I will wait on the independent air crash investigation rather that claims based on information that almost certainly could have been tampered with. Investigators that managed to get to the site early on have already stated that they have seen wreckage being tampered with, as such any claim based on photos only has to be treated with a great degree of caution.

 

[Rage Racer]

While I would not be surprised about the media on either side making stuff up, could you please actually supply links that back up the claim you are making.

Here, but it's in Russian. http://russian.rt.com/article/43294#ixzz392tTOdZi
Can't find the English version of this article.

 

[Dotini]

No, simply didn't see a PDF photo. If it's the one I'm thinking of then I looked at it at the time, I believe @Dennisch posted it. If I recall correctly then I questioned whether small-arms fire had been deployed on the panel once it was on the ground.

On consideration I thought the damage was consistent with an explosion on the other side of the the plane, effectively blowing the lower LH cockpit side away from the aircraft's centreline.

You seem to think I take a very biased line on this but you're the one providing the whizz-bang-poop-poop-OMG-TEH-ALIENZ theories

This is not the alien thread. But if you read it, you'll see that I DENY the existence of aliens now, or ever, on Earth.

No, I don't think you are congenitally biased. I simply commend your self-control in avoiding any evidence which may threaten the position you've committed to defending. I've read and admired scores of your posts, "liking" many. You are gifted with charm, intelligence, and a certain amoral, roguish ability to argue either side of any issue with equally remarkable conviction.

So, I'll be patiently digging while you ham it up for laffs. We'll see who eats the crow at the end of the day.

 

[Scaff]

Here, but it's in Russian. http://russian.rt.com/article/43294#ixzz392tTOdZi
Can't find the English version of this article.

Sorry but that don't seem to link to the Ukrainian media articles that its claimed to have come from, and given that its from RT I'm not exactly going to take it at face value.

 

[TenEightyOne]

So, I'll be patiently digging while you ham it up for laffs. We'll see who eats the crow at the end of the day.

Oh go on then.

On that day, my Day of Crow... what will the headline on the news be? Go on...?

 

[Dotini]

Personally I will wait on the independent air crash investigation rather that claims based on information that almost certainly could have been tampered with. Investigators that managed to get to the site early on have already stated that they have seen wreckage being tampered with, as such any claim based on photos only has to be treated with a great degree of caution.

Supposedly the pdf photo was taken on the very same day as the crash. I challenge you (and all) to look at it, if you have the intellectual and moral courage. There are no body parts to be seen.

 

[Scaff]

Supposedly the pdf photo was taken on the very same day as the crash. I challenge you (and all) to look at it, if you have the intellectual and moral courage. There are no body parts to be seen.

I've seen it (rather presumptuous of you to assume I had not) and I still reserve judgement until the independent air crash investigation has been completed, given that it doesn't confirm or refute anything on its own.

On a slightly pedantic note, what exactly is a pdf photo and what weight does it bring to this?

 

[Dotini]

Oh go on then.

On that day, my Day of Crow... what will the headline on the news be? Go on...?

You know me. I seldom take the bait.

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future"

- Yogi Berra

I will allow that it is possible I will be the one eating black feathers.