MH17 Crash In Ukraine. Known info in OP.

[Dotini]

I've seen it (rather presumptuous of you to assume I had not) and I still reserve judgement until the independent air crash investigation has been completed, given that it doesn't confirm or refute anything on its own.

On a slightly pedantic note, what exactly is a pdf photo and what weight does it bring to this?

How can you say it doesn't confirm or refute anything?? Really, anything?? It supposedly shows the cockpit full of ~30mm bullet holes, some going in, and some going out.

Supposedly, it is the only photo published to date of the crashed MH17 41 section (cockpit) taken and available in high resolution. Freshly crashed, true evidence, undoctored and unfiltered by spin by partisans. Look objectively with your eyes. Put aside your heart, tough as that may be.

Given my computer and computer skills (both primitive), only the pdf file viewer can open and interact with the contents. I am unable to post the photo directly here, so I must ask you to open a pdf file. If you are better than me, you will post the hi-res photo here for all to see and judge for themselves.

 

[Rage Racer]

Sorry but that don't seem to link to the Ukrainian media articles that its claimed to have come from, and given that its from RT I'm not exactly going to take it at face value.

There. A pro-Ukrainian media source: http://www.rupor.info/news-politika/2014/07/29/amerikanskie-sputniki-zafiksirovali-obstrel-ukrain/
But the video name says "17th of July, a Satellite snapped a moment of Buk launch". LOL.

And there: http://evromaidan2014.com/американский-спутник-показал-обстре/

 

[Dennisch]

Simple mishap by the media.

Remember those names that were published after I think it was a Korean plane crash?

Here.

Www.bohemian.com/BohoBlog/archives/2013/07/12/ktvu-reports-asiana-pilots-named-sum-ting-wong-ho-lee-fuk

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Uhm, can you please remind me how the separatists are obstructing the investigation?

There is a team of Australian and Dutch investigators at the site. They have had the full approval from the Ukrainian parliament for a week, but it has taken them five days to access the site because the separatists are blocking the area. There have even been reports of landmines on roads to the crash site. I know you like to believe that the Ukrainians have something to hide, but why would they grant access to the site and then try to block it when they could have just denied access from the start?

 

[Dotini]

There is a team of Australian and Dutch investigators at the site. They have had the full approval from the Ukrainian parliament for a week, but it has taken them five days to access the site because the separatists are blocking the area. There have even been reports of landmines on roads to the crash site. I know you like to believe that the Ukrainians have something to hide, but why would they grant access to the site and then try to block it when they could have just denied access from the start?

The Ukraine parliament is dissolved, with Svoboda and UDAR absconding, and the PM Yatsenyuk resigned, as of last week.

I listened to a live report this morning from an NPR reporter on site. He said that it was tough getting there, because they had to cross separatist, then government, then separatist lines of control to get there. He said that, once there, they were given full and respectful access access to everything, which he said appeared to be in remarkably pristine condition, even though they were still under escort from a distance.

Most unfortunately, the investigators have not been given access to the ATC tapes, which are held by the Ukraine secret police, and the satellite data held in secrecy by the US. On the 21st, the Russian military held a press conference where they turned over their time-and-date stamped radar tapes and other surveillance to the world media and to the Ukrainians. Strictly on the surface, it seems it is Ukraine and US that has something to hide, and not Russia.

 

[Rage Racer]

There is a team of Australian and Dutch investigators at the site. They have had the full approval from the Ukrainian parliament for a week, but it has taken them five days to access the site because the separatists are blocking the area. There have even been reports of landmines on roads to the crash site. I know you like to believe that the Ukrainians have something to hide, but why would they grant access to the site and then try to block it when they could have just denied access from the start?

I have another info, they could not access because of battle going on close - Ukrainian army was trying to gain control on the crash site, and the militia was fighting back. But now, the fire is barely ceased, and the investigators have started working.

I think the separatists are "blocking" the area to secure it from looters and other strangers. And landmines could have been planted against the Ukrainian government forces.

 

[Xilor]

There is a team of Australian and Dutch investigators at the site. They have had the full approval from the Ukrainian parliament for a week, but it has taken them five days to access the site because the separatists are blocking the area. There have even been reports of landmines on roads to the crash site. I know you like to believe that the Ukrainians have something to hide, but why would they grant access to the site and then try to block it when they could have just denied access from the start?

The city where the majority of the investigators are staying is being actively shelled by the Ukrainians, and all of the neighboring roads, including those leading to the crash site are full of military checkpoints, landmines, all kinds of dangerous stuff. That's why on days where the military action is particularly intense the investigators don't leave their hotel, you don't want to go outside and accidentally get blown up by a mortar shell, or get shot at because the Ukrainians mistake you for Chechen guerrillas.

The fact the Ukrainians give their permission doesn't mean **** if they turn the whole area into a war zone. Bullets and bombs don't discriminate.

 

[GTracer98]

My thoughts are still on that Christine Lagarde's speech about numerology. I mean, it just seems so weird and out of place, unless it has a purpose and meaning. Maybe it's just a conspiracy theory that I'm making up but it sure feels a bit alarming. I mean, surely I'm not the only one who finds this speech weird?

 

[Scaff]

How can you say it doesn't confirm or refute anything?? Really, anything?? It supposedly shows the cockpit full of ~30mm bullet holes, some going in, and some going out.

Supposedly, it is the only photo published to date of the crashed MH17 41 section (cockpit) taken and available in high resolution. Freshly crashed, true evidence, undoctored and unfiltered by spin by partisans. Look objectively with your eyes. Put aside your heart, tough as that may be.

Given my computer and computer skills (both primitive), only the pdf file viewer can open and interact with the contents. I am unable to post the photo directly here, so I must ask you to open a pdf file. If you are better than me, you will post the hi-res photo here for all to see and judge for themselves.

I can say it doesn't confirm or refute anything for exactly the same reason why your reply is peppered with the word supposedly, that its can't be 100% classed as "true evidence, undoctored and unfiltered by spin by partisan" (can you provide a citation as to exactly how you know this to be the case).

I am looking objectively with my eyes, which is exactly why I'm not jumping to conclusions regarding it, which would not seem to be the case for yourself.

Oh and lay off the passive aggressive digs "Put aside your heart, tough as that may be." they do you no favours and are not needed.

As for the pdf I still don't get why it needs to be highlighted, its a pdf file, big woop, its not exactly as if they are an unknown or special in any way.

There. A pro-Ukrainian media source: http://www.rupor.info/news-politika/2014/07/29/amerikanskie-sputniki-zafiksirovali-obstrel-ukrain/
But the video name says "17th of July, a Satellite snapped a moment of Buk launch". LOL.

And there: http://evromaidan2014.com/американский-спутник-показал-обстре/

The two articles translate as (by both google and a Ukrainian friend) as supposed evidence of Russia shelling Ukrainian forces, nothing to do with this thread at all.

That's why on days where the military action is particularly intense the investigators don't leave their hotel, you don't want to go outside and accidentally get blown up by a mortar shell, or get shot at because the Ukrainians mistake you for Chechen guerrillas.

What Chechen guerrillas?

Seriously that has nothing at all to do with the situation in the Ukraine at all, why would Chechen guerrillas be siding with Russia?

Makes no sense at all.

 

[Sanji Himura]

EU tightens sanctions against Russia - CNBC

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101884043

 

[Dotini]

Here's a lo res shot.

Haisenko Notes

• Cockpit shows traces of shelling, clean round hole, about 30 mm caliper.
• Some holes are bent inward, some outward
• Rivets bent outward
• Moreover, small cuts can be seen, all bent outward, which hint at the fact that fragments have penetrated the outer hull from the inside of the cockpit.

Read more at http://freedomoutpost.com/2014/07/g...ck-brought-mh17-credible/#b0UucTCiAcsLd56m.99

 

[Scaff]

Here's a lo res shot.

Haisenko Notes

• Cockpit shows traces of shelling, clean round hole, about 30 mm caliper.
• Some holes are bent inward, some outward
• Rivets bent outward
• Moreover, small cuts can be seen, all bent outward, which hint at the fact that fragments have penetrated the outer hull from the inside of the cockpit.

Read more at http://freedomoutpost.com/2014/07/g...ck-brought-mh17-credible/#b0UucTCiAcsLd56m.99

I've read it, and even that source is still skeptical. It still remains a massive leap to say that the plane was shot down by a 30mm cannon from another plane based just on this image.

No scale markers are present to show that these meet the caliber in question?
How do we know this has not been caused once the plane was on the ground?
If it was an air to air attack why would the attacking plane shoot from both sides (to cause the some bent in some bent out issue)?

And that's just for starters. This is exactly why speculation based on a single image is potentially misleading and an independent air crash investigation is needed.

As an example this is 30mm cannon damage...

...source http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92009&page=2, from a 2010 thread and it looks different enough from the image above to raise questions in anyone's mind that wasn't already made up.

 

[Dotini]

No scale markers are present to show that these meet the caliber in question?
How do we know this has not been caused once the plane was on the ground?
If it was an air to air attack why would the attacking plane shoot from both sides (to cause the some bent in some bent out issue)?

And that's just for starters. This is exactly why speculation based on a single image is potentially misleading and an independent air crash investigation is needed.

Finally, someone is, commendably, asking intelligent, skeptical questions about the evidence! 👍 More, more more!

But if its an independent investigation you want, why are there NATO member Dutch crowding the site, and not Inuit or Swiss?

 

[Rage Racer]

What Chechen guerrillas?

Seriously that has nothing at all to do with the situation in the Ukraine at all, why would Chechen guerrillas be siding with Russia?

Maybe you'll be surprised, but there are volunteers from Chechnya fighting on the side of Novorossiya. Kadyrov supports the militias of Donbass.

 

[Scaff]

Finally, someone is, commendably, asking intelligent, skeptical questions about the evidence! 👍 More, more more!

But if its an independent investigation you want, why are there Dutchmen crowding the site, and not Inuit?

Did I say the people on the ground were that?

Nope.

That's not to say that the Dutch team are not capable of acting in that manner, particularly as they are not alone.

Maybe you'll be surprised, but there are volunteers from Chechnya fighting on the side of Novorossiya. Kadyrov supports the militias of Donbass.

Chechen's most certainly, but Chechen Guerrillas would imply those who are still fighting the Russian backed government from the North Caucasus' and they most certainly would not be backing pro Russians.

 

[Dotini]

Did I say the people on the ground were that?

Nope.

That's not to say that the Dutch team are not capable of acting in that manner, particularly as they are not alone.

Well, the Dutch have Australian policemen with them. And Ukraine has formally assigned the official investigation to the Dutch, according to the reports.

Like Tyrion Lannister said in the dungeons of the Red Keep, "If its justice you want, you've come to the wrong place."


The Dutch, far from being independent, are the most involved people on planet Earth.

 

[Sanji Himura]

Finally, someone is, commendably, asking intelligent, skeptical questions about the evidence! 👍 More, more more!

But if its an independent investigation you want, why are there NATO member Dutch crowding the site, and not Inuit or Swiss?

The plane took off from their airport, and as the point of origin for the flight, the Dutch has every right to lead the investigation. Ukraine is fighting a civil war, and face it, a shadow invasion of their country by Russia, so Ukraine and Russia will obviously be pointing the finger at each other. Most of the EU obviously has interests in one side or the other, so they can't be reliable, as my previous post proves with their sanctions. Obama isn't going to do anything, as he lacks the [censored] foreign policy needed to put Putin in his place and allow the Dutch investigation to go through.

 

[Dotini]

The plane took off from their airport, and as the point of origin for the flight, the Dutch has every right to lead the investigation. Ukraine is fighting a civil war, and face it, a shadow invasion of their country by Russia, so Ukraine and Russia will obviously be pointing the finger at each other. Most of the EU obviously has interests in one side or the other, so they can't be reliable, as my previous post proves with their sanctions. Obama isn't going to do anything, as he lacks the [censored] foreign policy needed to put Putin in his place and allow the Dutch investigation to go through.

I don't contest the right of the Dutch to lead the investigation, only the independence.
(Hint: Might makes right)

 

[GTracer98]

I still have my doubts that the investigation will be truly independent. I just don't see that happening.

 

[Rage Racer]

Chechen's most certainly, but Chechen Guerrillas would imply those who are still fighting the Russian backed government from the North Caucasus' and they most certainly would not be backing pro Russians.

"Chechen guerrillas" that you mean almost don't exist anymore - the Caucasian Islamist insurgency is still active in Ingushetia and Dagestan, but in Chechnya itself, they're (almost) completely overwhelmed by Kadyrov's and federal forces.

So, back to the topic of MH17 crash.

 

[Scaff]

Well, the Dutch have Australian policemen with them. And Ukraine has formally assigned the official investigation to the Dutch, according to the reports.

Like Tyrion Lannister said in the dungeons of the Red Keep, "If its justice you want, you've come to the wrong place."


The Dutch, far from being independent, are the most involved people on planet Earth.

That still doesn't explain how it stops them from investigating in an independent and transparent manner?

By your logic every criminal investigation would need to be carried out by another country to be independent, a factor that it itself would not guarantee independence. Does this mean that ever investigation the FAA have ever carried out have been devoid of Justice? You certainly seem to be implying so.

It also ignores the fact that the Dutch are not the ones examining the black boxes, that's being carried out in the UK.

In addition it also ignores the fact the investigators are both Dutch and Australian, not just Dutch with Aussie police (which read to me as if you are implying they are just security).

Nothing that you have presented (other than your own seemingly biased assumptions) indicates that having a Dutch element to the investigation will result in an automatic lack of justice.

"Chechen guerrillas" that you mean almost don't exist anymore - the Caucasian Islamist insurgency is still active in Ingushetia and Dagestan, but in Chechnya itself, they're (almost) completely overwhelmed by Kadyrov's and federal forces.

So, back to the topic of MH17 crash.

Almost - as you say - doesn't mean gone. It simply struck me as a very odd turn of phrase to use in this context.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The fact the Ukrainians give their permission doesn't mean **** if they turn the whole area into a war zone.

And the separatists are what, exactly? Innocent bystanders in the middle of it all?

Your solution thus far has amounted to "let the separatists have their way". Which is no solution at all.

 

[Dotini]

That still doesn't explain how it stops them from investigating in an independent and transparent manner?

By your logic every criminal investigation would need to be carried out by another country to be independent, a factor that it itself would not guarantee independence. Does this mean that ever investigation the FAA have ever carried out have been devoid of Justice? You certainly seem to be implying so.

It also ignores the fact that the Dutch are not the ones examining the black boxes, that's being carried out in the UK.

In addition it also ignores the fact the investigators are both Dutch and Australian, not just Dutch with Aussie police (which read to me as if you are implying they are just security).

Nothing that you have presented (other than your own seemingly biased assumptions) indicates that having a Dutch element to the investigation will result in an automatic lack of justice.

Dear Scaff, I truly hope you are right, and I sincerely hope that the team do hold an independent and transparent investigation. 👍

It has taken a tortuous, all-day effort on my part to get the photo evidence and your good questions on that evidence into the thread. I congratulate myself for that, and open a beer in celebration. Whew!

On the other hand, along the way you will have noted my admission (to TenEightyOne) that it is I who one day may be compelled to eat crow.

Accordingly, I'm respectfully asking for your forgiveness for my rhetorical sins. I want the truth as much as you do. Let a sound and respected investigation take place, and the chips fall where they may.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

On the example you show what is the reference material that the bullets when through, since it may be harder than air craft aluminum. @Scaff

 

[TenEightyOne]

On the example you show what is the reference material that the bullets when through, since it may be harder than air craft aluminum. @Scaff

Interesting that some of them show an outward scar on the outer skin and an inward scar on the inner skin. Perhaps the particles have gone from the outside inwards (ie from left to right) and caused a percussive "bubble" between the two skins?

It's a strange feature, it'll be interesting to see what the Dutch investigators make of it once the CIA have finished writing the results etc

 

[Dotini]

Flash news: Secret Deal to End Ukraine War. Makes it very likely Russia supports MH17 investigation.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...ivil-war-contunes.303465/page-37#post-9934374

 

[TenEightyOne]

Flash news: Secret Deal to End Ukraine War. Makes it very likely Russia supports MH17 investigation.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...ivil-war-contunes.303465/page-37#post-9934374

Here's the article link... I don't see how Germany's attempts to make a deal inform the likelihood of Russia supporting (or not supporting) the investigation?

You get excited tremendously quickly, do take a breath

 

[Dotini]

I don't see how Germany's attempts to make a deal inform the likelihood of Russia supporting (or not supporting) the investigation?

The logic: Quite obviously Russia and Germany want a deal. The MH17 tragedy has put the deal on ice for the moment. In order for the deal to go forward, a speedy completion of the investigation is in the interests of both Russia and Germany.

Buried deep in the article:

'However, these attempts by Ms Merkel to act as a broker between President Putin and the Ukraine’s President, Petro Poroshenko, were put on the back-burner following the shooting down of the MH17 plane in eastern Ukraine.

But insiders who are party to the discussions said yesterday that the “German peace plan is still on the table and the only deal around. Negotiations have stalled because of the MH17 disaster but they are expected to restart once the investigation has taken place.”'

 

[TenEightyOne]

The logic: Quite obviously Russia and Germany want a deal. The MH17 tragedy has put the deal on ice for the moment. In order for the deal to go forward, a speedy completion of the investigation is in the interests of both Russia and Germany.

Buried deep in the article:

'However, these attempts by Ms Merkel to act as a broker between President Putin and the Ukraine’s President, Petro Poroshenko, were put on the back-burner following the shooting down of the MH17 plane in eastern Ukraine.

But insiders who are party to the discussions said yesterday that the “German peace plan is still on the table and the only deal around. Negotiations have stalled because of the MH17 disaster but they are expected to restart once the investigation has taken place.”'

You said that the presence of the headline made it likely that Russia supports MH17 investigation. All I see there is a literal timeline, the rest would be presumption.

You also presume that Russia are waiting with baited breath for Merkel's negotiations to restart; this article gives no idea of whether or not that's the case but I suspect they're a little more laid-back than that.

 

[Dotini]

You said that the presence of the headline made it likely that Russia supports MH17 investigation. All I see there is a literal timeline, the rest would be presumption.

You also presume that Russia are waiting with baited breath for Merkel's negotiations to restart; this article gives no idea of whether or not that's the case but I suspect they're a little more laid-back than that.

Okay, whatever, I'm good with it.

It's basically great news for those of us who were worried about an expanding conflict. There will no new Cold War, or nuclear confrontation between NATO and Russia. That's news worth getting excited about, yessirree, wahoo!