MH370: Malaysian Airlines Flight to Beijing carrying 239 people is lost over sea.

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Swagger897
I'm sorry, but the search was never conducted over in the Indian Ocean extensively as it was west of Australia.
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That is the Indian Ocean. The border (if you can call it that) between the Indian and Great Southern Oceans is Cape Leeuwen in the south-western corner of Western Australia. If you go there and look southwards, you can quite literally see two bodies of water next to each other. It's the only place in the world where you can physically see too oceans meeting.

Swagger897
But, I perceive the main reason as to why no search was conducted out there, would be due to the efforts required vs. what was required in Perth. The flight to reconnaissance area would be/is much shorter than the entire debris field hypothesized.
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So, in addition to committing a fundamental error in geography, your entire hypothesis for the plane being in the South China Sea rather than the Indian Ocean is "they didn't bother looking in the right place because it was more convenient to look somewhere nearby" and you have made no mention of why the data used to justify searching the search area has no credibility despite multiple experts in the field attesting to its validity.
 
prisonermonkeys
That is the Indian Ocean. The border (if you can call it that) between the Indian and Great Southern Oceans is Cape Leeuwen in the south-western corner of Western Australia. If you go there and look southwards, you can quite literally see two bodies of water next to each other. It's the only place in the world where you can physically see too oceans meeting.
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I'm referring to the interior part of the ocean itself, not on the extreme outer rim.

prisonermonkeys
So, in addition to committing a fundamental error in geography
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Oh, sorry, let me just pull an atlas out of my ass and pin point lat/long of each meeting point for every body of water. No, sorry, it wasn't an error, it was where I perceived it was to be.
Take this image from what I was referring too:
MH370-mas-where_the_plane_would_have_ended-130314-tmi-graphics-heza.jpg


Looking down as if it were a compass, I am referring to the "sighting" while it was going down aflame located around a bearing of about 230. In that extreme mass of water, it would be damn near equidistant from India, Madagascar, and the outer reach of Kuala Lumpur.

prisonermonkeys
your entire hypothesis for the plane being in the South China Sea rather than the Indian Ocean is "they didn't bother looking in the right place because it was more convenient to look somewhere nearby"
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Not what I said at all. The most logical thought for recovery efforts was to be focused based out of Perth. The report near the Maldives (or wherever it was, it's been almost 6 months since I've last read it) of the flamed object was reported well into the search. The efforts to move all the way to Mumbai or an area capable of accepting an aircraft that could search (since this was their primary search vehicle for a rapid scan of the surface layer) that far out and return would be inconceivable. The primary goal of any sort of investigation is to beat the clock before any sort of remnants of the scene/situation disperse and are lost forever. I find personally, flawed in your mind or not, that the efforts required to go plane chasing would not prove worthy for the time lost...

prisonermonkeys
experts in the field
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Experts in the field of what? Drawing a circle of the possibility of where th.... oh wait, just look up.
 
Swagger897
I'm referring to the interior part of the ocean itself, not on the extreme outer rim.
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There's a very good reason why no search was conducted there - there was no evidence to suggest that the plane went down there. Why do you think they concentrated on the area south and west of Perth? Even though all conventional communications with the plane were lost, Inmarsat - the company managing satellite telephone communications - were able to detect multiple points of contacts between their satellites and MH370's on-board satellite phone. They used those points of contact to track the plane's progress over the southern Indian Ocean, and given the knowledge of the plane's airspeed, altitude and fuel reserves, predict the area in which it likely would have hone done when it ran out of fuel.

Swagger897
The report near the Maldives (or wherever it was, it's been almost 6 months since I've last read it) of the flamed object was reported well into the search.
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And unsubstantiated by any physical evidence. In fact, it completely contradicts the data provided by Inmarsat since the Maldives are in the opposite direction.

Swagger897
Take this image from what I was referring too
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Then you need to get better sources. That image shows the last point of contact between MH370 and civilian air traffic control. It does not take into account multiple subsequent points of contact between the flights military radar, or the aforementioned Inmarsat data.
 
TenEightyOne
It took the development of some new techniques but that is indeed where the plane was tracked to.
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It was hardly a new technique - rather, it was one that had never been applied this way before now. Your phone is constantly sending out a message that essentially asks "are you there?" and waits for a response from a mobile phone tower that amounts to "yes, I'm here"; we know that as reception. Inmarsat knew that the plane was equipped with a satellite phone and that it was powered independently of the systems used to monitor the plane's progress. They realised that so long as MH370 still had power, its satellite phone would still be searching for reception by default on their network, and that they could use the signal to figure out where the plane was. It was then a case of identifying it, isolating it, and using triangulation to figure out the GPS co-ordinates.
 
prisonermonkeys
It was hardly a new technique - rather, it was one that had never been applied this way before now. Your phone is constantly sending out a message that essentially asks "are you there?" and waits for a response from a mobile phone tower that amounts to "yes, I'm here"; we know that as reception. Inmarsat knew that the plane was equipped with a satellite phone and that it was powered independently of the systems used to monitor the plane's progress. They realised that so long as MH370 still had power, its satellite phone would still be searching for reception by default on their network, and that they could use the signal to figure out where the plane was. It was then a case of identifying it, isolating it, and using triangulation to figure out the GPS co-ordinates.
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But it wasn't found.

Does Inmarsat vouch for the reliability of their crutched technique? Has it been successfully used in other cases? Is this really science, or is there some witch-doctoring involved?
 
Lets put it like this... Everything I've posted has been based off of my personal opinions backed by fact or not. I'm not trying to prove anything, that's my opinion.
 
Dotini
But it wasn't found.

Does Inmarsat vouch for the reliability of their crutched technique? Has it been successfully used in other cases? Is this really science, or is there some witch-doctoring involved?
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It's been proven to work. Inmarsat couldn't give a final location because they only got pings from when the plane made contact with a new satellite. MH370 went down in an area with comparatively little satellite coverage. The failure to find the plane does not mean that the technique is flawed; it has been suggested that the plane is sitting at the bottom of the Indian Ocean, under a layer of silt and sediment so thick that the sonar used to find it cannot detect it.

Swagger897
Everything I've posted has been based off of my personal opinions backed by fact or not.
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And it shows. Your opinions are unsubstantiated and ignore the evidence that has been provided and verified by both the scientific and civil aviation communities.
 
prisonermonkeys
it has been suggested that the plane is sitting at the bottom of the Indian Ocean, under a layer of silt and sediment so thick that the sonar used to find it cannot detect it.
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??? The surface area/weight ratio of the plane (in any state of disintegration) would be too big to sink too much into the sediment. They are mapping the contours of the sea floor and looking for anomalies - the main problem is that in 4km of water, a plane does not look very big on the sea floor.
 
Barra333
The surface area/weight ratio of the plane (in any state of disintegration) would be too big to sink too much into the sediment.
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But not so big that it could be covered by sediment once it came to rest on the ocean floor. Over time, silt and sediment carried by ocean currents could narurally build up; if the plane was in the wrong spot - somewhere that the sediment would naturally build up because the ocean floor is not flat - it could be lost forever.
 
There are very few places in the world where the natural sediment accumulation would have put more than a centimetre or so down since the plane went missing. The middle of the Indian Ocean certainly isn't one of them. It is 4km+ deep, and about as flat as it gets for the sea floor in many places.
 
Even if we find it, I doubt we will know what really happened.
How long can those blackboxes survive in sub zero sea water?

While the oxygen will be low, it is still salt water which is not good for anything, so the electronics will be corroded.
 
Grayfox
Even if we find it, I doubt we will know what really happened.
How long can those blackboxes survive in sub zero sea water?

While the oxygen will be low, it is still salt water which is not good for anything, so the electronics will be corroded.
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I concur, I'm spending my Christmas break dealing with damage caused by salt in the air, cast iron isn't liking it at all, could only imagine what the fine metal connections within a motherboard would be coping with, I'd image most of those fine strands would be non existent
 
TDZdave
I concur, I'm spending my Christmas break dealing with damage caused by salt in the air, cast iron isn't liking it at all, could only imagine what the fine metal connections within a motherboard would be coping with, I'd image most of those fine strands would be non existent
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Well on land you got what 22% oxygen in the air which means corrosion happens quickly.

Under 4000meters of water you got maybe 5% if that(not sure but a rough guess) it will be much slower.
 
Grayfox
Well on land you got what 22% oxygen in the air which means corrosion happens quickly.

Under 4000meters of water you got maybe 5% if that(not sure but a rough guess) it will be much slower.
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At the surface, sea water can hold a bit over 10mg/L oxygen, compared to about 200g/L (200,000mg/L) if we call the atmosphere 20% oxygen. In cold, deep water, the corrosion rate is amazingly slow.
 
Yeah did a little reading on the amount of dissolved O2 in the water.

And before people even think about ask, the titanic is covered in rust for another reason, not due to the O2 in the water.
 
Grayfox
And before people even think about ask, the titanic is covered in rust for another reason, not due to the O2 in the water.
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The oxygen is essential in that case though.

In this case of this aircraft it's fair to say that at rest in normal conditions the Titanic would rust far more quickly than a modern airliner with many composite parts, it's also fair to presume that saline rusting of either would show the same balance.

Presuming that the mounting points stayed intact, that the boxes didn't sink into the mire and that the boxes weren't smashed in the crash event... I reckon about three years before the chips decay. Less time for any tape, sadly. A short article on the subject from NBC, not very illustrative.
 
TenEightyOne
The oxygen is essential in that case though.

In this case of this aircraft it's fair to say that at rest in normal conditions the Titanic would rust far more quickly than a modern airliner with many composite parts, it's also fair to presume that saline rusting of either would show the same balance.

Presuming that the mounting points stayed intact, that the boxes didn't sink into the mire and that the boxes weren't smashed in the crash event... I reckon about three years before the chips decay. Less time for any tape, sadly. A short article on the subject from NBC, not very illustrative.
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Well the voice recorder only holds the last 2 hours which they have said will have nothing, but i am sure they could recover something off it if they found it.
Do they use microchips or something else for the flight data recorder.

The titanic is rusting because it has bacteria on it that eat iron am produce rusticles as waste.
 
Grayfox
Well the voice recorder only holds the last 2 hours which they have said will have nothing, but i am sure they could recover something off it if they found it.
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It records the last two powered hours. It's unclear what did/didn't work or at what point the FDR/CVR will have stopped.

Grayfox
The titanic is rusting because it has bacteria on it that eat iron am produce rusticles as waste.
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Read the link I posted in reply - halomanus titanicae is aerobic despite there being other halophides which are anaerobic. So oxygen is, as I said, essential to the process.
 
Grayfox
The titanic is rusting because it has bacteria on it that eat iron am produce rusticles as waste.
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TenEightyOne
Read the link I posted in reply - halomanus titanicae is aerobic despite there being other halophides which are anaerobic. So oxygen is, as I said, essential to the process.
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You are both right. The titanic is disappearing as a result of H. titanicae (and other bacteria) using the iron as a food source and making rusticles as the waste product. It requires oxygen to live, but on a much lower level than is required for normal rust to occur.
 
Barra333
You are both right. The titanic is disappearing as a result of H. titanicae (and other bacteria) using the iron as a food source and making rusticles as the waste product. It requires oxygen to live, but on a much lower level than is required for normal rust to occur.
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Absolutely, I think I was just illustrating the point for Grayfox. In addition to normal oxidation of the Titanic there is a previously undiscovered culture (H. titatincae as you note) that is also aerobic (relatively unusual for that form). So both processes require the oxygen therefore the oxygen levels are indeed important. Little can be done at bed level, of course, but in terms of preserving raided parts it's important information.
 
Keef
"Could've glided hundreds of miles..."

The glide distance of a 747, which has a similar glide ratio to the 777, can glide 97 nautical miles from 35,000 feet. This buffer has surely been factored into the search area long ago.
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That would be if they kept a straight course. Any turn would reduce that significantly.
 
If the pictures and video coincides with the same article, then it's a load of crap, as they're the same ones already shown which was the flaperon..
 

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