Middle-range gaming rig, bit more pricey than anticipated

[nick09]

Mind explaining this piece of information from the first post for me?

on the 478, use the 220 grit sand paper until the entire surface is copper, then stop and get ready to switch sandpaper.

Also the reason why we use thermal paste is to fill in those cracks that you somehow have to file down for some odd reason. In my mind I'm not trusting a $1 piece of sandpaper to my $220 CPU.

 

[Terronium-12]

Mind explaining this piece of information from the first post for me?

It's to polish off the roughness. A common procedure when sanding/filing something.

Also the reason why we use thermal paste is to fill in those cracks that you somehow have to file down for some odd reason. In my mind I'm not trusting a $1 piece of sandpaper to my $220 CPU.

I'm going to presume you missed the bit where I said air gets trapped in the grooves and thus optimal dissipation is negated to some degree? Of course there are still minuscule grooves even after lapping, but they'll be a lot smaller and less of a problem, hence the temperature advantage.

And no one ever said you had to lap a $200 chip. Like anything related to DIY, it's best if you practiced on something you no longer have any use for.

 

[nick09]

I'm well aware of that air can get trapped in the microscopic grooves. As I've said it's not worth it to me to sand a processor down even if it was a cheap $35 one. That small degree is very little and does very little on how cool a processor can get. I've pulled a heatsink off of the computer I built recently(my bulldozer PC) and there was no problems with my thermal paste having too much air with it. This is off the stock AMD heatsink which has small ridges in the copper plate. The computer ran 30C idle and I don't see a point in "lapping" that processor. I know you are saying you never told me to lap a $220 processor but I posted it as an example of why I never liked the idea even if I "played" with a cheap PC.

 

[tlowr4]

... but you will have to remove the HSF, the CPU, clean off the thermal gunk, and start sanding away. ...http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220200

AHHH!!!!!! NOOOO!!!!!

EDIT: Nice thermal paste application, Seismica. One of the neatest I've seen on an Intel CPU. AMD's systems can have the thermal paste right to the edges, and one video on YouTube did it the best that I've ever seen, but it's not that way on Intel (since the socket brace covers part of the heatspreader on the topside of the heatsink). Nice work. 👍

 

[eSZee]

It's to polish off the roughness. A common procedure when sanding/filing something.

I thought that was a misconception?
The only time you would ever lap a sink is if the base itself was concave/convex. The base itself having a mirror finish is NOT best for cooling.
The 212 base is polished down enough.

 

[Terronium-12]

I'm well aware of that air can get trapped in the microscopic grooves.

There's no "can". Air does get trapped in the grooves.

That small degree is very little and does very little on how cool a processor can get.

Have you understood anything I've said? Serious question.

You realize two (almost) completely flat surfaces mate better than how they're machined at their respective factories, don't you? Simply because you have an opinion, an adamant one at that, on something you've never even tried frankly makes you oblivious to the entire advantage. In theory it's really no different than buying a video card or a CPU expecting to get the same performance clock as someone else. You may succeed, you may fail, or you may even exceed those expectations. Such is the way of performance.

I've pulled a heatsink off of the computer I built recently(my bulldozer PC) and there was no problems with my thermal paste having too much air with it.

Other than apparent bubbles (which you more than likely diffused when you pulled the base off) you can't see air.

This is off the stock AMD heatsink which has small ridges in the copper plate. The computer ran 30C idle and I don't see a point in "lapping" that processor.

Again, my original question has been answered. Lapping, much like water cooling, isn't about out and out idle temperatures. The advantages come in when it's under load.

I know you are saying you never told me to lap a $220 processor but I posted it as an example of why I never liked the idea even if I "played" with a cheap PC.

Your example was wrong. End of story.

I thought that was a misconception?
The only time you would ever lap a sink is if the base itself was concave/convex. The base itself having a mirror finish is NOT best for cooling.
The 212 base is polished down enough.

Well, what I meant by "polish" was to remove any of the scratches left over from the previous grit.

However, of everything I know concerning lapping bases or an IHS, a mirror finish doesn't seem to have any negative effects as far as before and after are concerned unless you've done it wrong. In which case it'd be because you've done it wrong.

You are spot on about the concave/convex surfacing though. That's where the ruler comes in.

 

[eSZee]

I prefer to use gold bricks as a gauge of flatness. Just saying.

 

[nick09]

Do you have to fight all of the time? You can't leave someone alone with their opinion? Instead you have to attack repeatedly when you think you are being attacked? Why repeat what has already been said and then idiotically change it?

You are arguing for practically no reason at all. You should of been able to tell I was not interested in lapping a CPU and that's the end of the story.

 

[Terronium-12]

I prefer to use gold bricks as a gauge of flatness. Just saying.

Do you have to fight all of the time? You can't leave someone alone with their opinion? Instead you have to attack repeatedly when you think you are being attacked? Why repeat what has already been said and then idiotically change it? You are arguing for practically no reason at all. You should of been able to tell I was not interested in lapping a CPU and that's the end of the story.

I don't even care enough to point out any further discrepancies in your post, as per usual.

*Click*

EDIT: Ah. That's much better.

 

[nick09]

Fine. As it stands I would still call you crazy for sanding your cpu. Though if a processor you bought from a store is not flat I'd demand my money back if anything.

 

[Terronium-12]

Fine. As it stands I would still call you crazy for sanding your cpu. Though if a processor you bought from a store is not flat I'd demand my money back if anything.

You really need to stop posting as you haven't a single clue as to what you're talking about. Again, I'm going to ask if you've understood anything I've said thus far. If you did then you would have taken notice to the fact that whether the IHS is nearly flat or otherwise isn't determined where or when you buy it, it's determined by how it's machined at the respective facility.

As far as you calling me crazy that's fine, but I'd call you something else entirely which, needless to say, wouldn't bode very well for my status here.... So, Ignored.

 

[nick09]

If you did then you would have taken notice to the fact that whether the IHS is nearly flat or otherwise isn't determined where or when you buy it, it's determined by how it's machined at the respective facility.

I meant that as a consumer you'd naturally want you money back for a deformed CPU rather than taking a flight down to the plant that made the same processor and complain. You honestly don't make sense either.

 

[tlowr4]

You really need to stop posting as you haven't a single clue as to what you're talking about. Again, I'm going to ask if you've understood anything I've said thus far. If you did then you would have taken notice to the fact that whether the IHS is nearly flat or otherwise isn't determined where or when you buy it, it's determined by how it's machined at the respective facility.

As far as you calling me crazy that's fine, but I'd call you something else entirely which, needless to say, wouldn't bode very well for my status here.... So, Ignored.

Now listen, I've been working with nick for quite some time. Over the last few months, specifically, he's tought me everything I now know about computers. For hell's sake, I didn't know where you stuck the RAM, or that you needed thermal paste to help with heat distribution and dissipation. Now we are all individuals, and we all have our different views. But this is a middle ranged rig, and I'm not sure that the OP has a whole heap of experience in sanding a CPU.

You say there's words your thinking to describe Nick, well, there's words in my head too. Now people on GTP know that I get ticked off easily, and that post is exactly what will tick me off...*deep breaths*.

Ook, now. Before I go completely berserk, I think Imma need someone to hole me up against a wall for a bit, whilst I kick and scream. Sound good? Any volunteers?

 

[NissanSkylineN1]

Fine. As it stands I would still call you crazy for sanding your cpu. Though if a processor you bought from a store is not flat I'd demand my money back if anything.

+1
I'm sorry, I just had to:

Oh hey Terronium, should I go lap my 6770 as well? How about my chipset?
You've also told me to stop posting. Have I? No. Nick is actually someone who is practical and cares about every factor of building and purchasing parts. He was the only one who helped build my rig, which I love by the way, ThankYouNickGod, and then in the end when we discovered my h67 couldn't overclock (a sneaky move by Intel, really), people (I won't mention here) started ripping on us, like they were any help.

If you are ever tempted to lap your CPU do this instead: stand on polyester carpeting with your socks while you press your CPU onto the 3500 rpm spinning gray 60 grit wheel of a nice Black & Decker BT3500 bench grinder. Keep going until the static tingle in your fingers turns into sharp shocks and the IHS is ground down to where the actual circuitry is visible. Now your CPU will work perfectly. If you'll believe that, you'll also believe that Microsoft Bob was the best Operating System in history, Enron stock was a profitable investment, and Hancock was a great superhero movie.

Intel has been pulling out every engineering trick possible to get their CPU speeds up and if it was so simple that just yanking off a metal cover would do the trick, they would have resorted to that already. Besides, with CPU binning, there is a natural adjustment of speeds across a processor family so that the overall curve of slow to fast is relatively stable.

Seriously though, If you want to void your warranty, go ahead lap your CPU. I doubt it will make a major difference, and in fact, the room temperature would probably make a bigger difference than those microscopic holes in your CPU. And to tlowr4, this is the Computer's section of GTPlanet, welcome, where some people call each other idiots because their opinions are different.

 

[tlowr4]

^^ Fair enough. I'm happy to be a part of the club. I see daan lurking the thread at the moment, so I hope I didn't overstep the mark...

 

[Terronium-12]

Now listen, I've been working with nick for quite some time. Over the last few months, specifically, he's tought me everything I now know about computers. For hell's sake, I didn't know where you stuck the RAM, or that you needed thermal paste to help with heat distribution and dissipation. Now we are all individuals, and we all have our different views. But this is a middle ranged rig, and I'm not sure that the OP has a whole heap of experience in sanding a CPU.

Good for you. Is that supposed to mean something to me?

As for the experience bit that's exactly why, and this is verbatim, I said: "If you ever do want to take a stab at it..."

You say there's words your thinking to describe Nick, well, there's words in my head too. Now people on GTP know that I get ticked off easily, and that post is exactly what will tick me off...*deep breaths*.

Is this also supposed to mean something? Intimidate me perhaps?

You can get ticked off all you want to. Scratch your arse and get glad is all I can tell you.

 

[tlowr4]

Awwwwwww hell. Ok, I'm steamin', but I don't wanna get banned. I'm not actually sure what to do with myself. Weather to make an hour long post screaming about that last post of yours, or to just tick off and go have a beer...

Either way I'll start running after you going "ARRRRHHHHRHRHRHRHRHRHHRGRRRRR!!!!" In about 5 seconds...

EDIT: Just realized I may be turning this into a fight thread. So if no further comments, let's get back to the rig...

 

[bergauk]

Do you have to fight all of the time? You can't leave someone alone with their opinion? Instead you have to attack repeatedly when you think you are being attacked? Why repeat what has already been said and then idiotically change it?

You are arguing for practically no reason at all. You should of been able to tell I was not interested in lapping a CPU and that's the end of the story.

Your opinion doesn't beat facts, sorry.

Now listen, I've been working with nick for quite some time. Over the last few months, specifically, he's tought me everything I now know about computers. For hell's sake, I didn't know where you stuck the RAM, or that you needed thermal paste to help with heat distribution and dissipation. Now we are all individuals, and we all have our different views. But this is a middle ranged rig, and I'm not sure that the OP has a whole heap of experience in sanding a CPU.

You say there's words your thinking to describe Nick, well, there's words in my head too. Now people on GTP know that I get ticked off easily, and that post is exactly what will tick me off...*deep breaths*.

Ook, now. Before I go completely berserk, I think Imma need someone to hole me up against a wall for a bit, whilst I kick and scream. Sound good? Any volunteers?

I feel REALLY sorry for you if you've been listening to him for advice. His basics might be fine, but I wouldn't pay him to build me a machine if he can't even get his ram to run at the correct speeds first try.

 

[nick09]

Your opinion doesn't beat facts, sorry.

What facts? That sanding your CPU down to the copper is good for it?

but I wouldn't pay him to build me a machine if he can't even get his ram to run at the correct speeds first try.

I'm sorry but the computer never booted at what the ram manufacturer recommended.

 

[bergauk]

Facts seem to show that lapping it will help with temperature. The fact that YOU think it's useless, is an opinion. One that you have no real backing for why you don't like it.

I'm deeply sorry that you picked out a set of RAM that didn't work from the get-go, maybe it might if you had done a little bit more research into what you were building. Seeing as it is completely possible to build a computer that'll work the moment you put it together. If it didn't work immediately, you obviously did something wrong. Just saying.

 

[nick09]

It's a choice I make to not lap my processor and that's the end of the story.

The computer worked after I built it but the motherboard detected the ram as DDR3 1333. I've made a profile that makes it 1600 in the bios but other programs said it was 1066 memory and one program said it was running at 1496. Very good reason why I was confused. This is from an AMD Bulldozer reviewer's kit I found online.

 

[tlowr4]

I feel REALLY sorry for you if you've been listening to him for advice. His basics might be fine, but I wouldn't pay him to build me a machine if he can't even get his ram to run at the correct speeds first try.

All...the...words...I...want...too...say...now...ARRGG. I have repeated the same information that Nick has given me, in the same manner and tone, to tech's with a Doctorate in Hardware, Software, and General IT services, and they have said that it is correct. Might I see your papers?

Also, let's see you build a PC and have it boot 100% first time every time. IT WON'T HAPPEN. PC's aren't perfect. Nor is anything else in this world. It was just a bad timing that something went wrong with the RAM with Nick's Bulldozer build.

 

[DQuaN]

Ok, everyone put their e-penises away, this geek off is getting out of hand!

Guys Nick isn't exactly a beginner when it comes to pc builds. You all maybe more technical than him but there is no need to bash him for his opinions.

I must say I hadn't heard of lapping before reading this thread. It seems quite a drastic method and certainly not something I would try apart from as an experiment on an old machine.

Now how about we just get back so Seismica's build hmm?

 

[bergauk]

All...the...words...I...want...too...say...now...ARRGG. I have repeated the same information that Nick has given me, in the same manner and tone, to tech's with a Doctorate in Hardware, Software, and General IT services, and they have said that it is correct. Might I see your papers?

Also, let's see you build a PC and have it boot 100% first time every time. IT WON'T HAPPEN. PC's aren't perfect. Nor is anything else in this world. It was just a bad timing that something went wrong with the RAM with Nick's Bulldozer build.

This is just one example of many.
https://secure.newegg.com/WishList/MySavedWishDetail.aspx?ID=14875611 Just saying.

Every single part on there can be verified as working. I see this computer on a weekly basis at my best friends house, I built it, I picked out every single part from Newegg, and went through it with him sitting next to me, building it for him, for his needs, and made SURE that it would work. That means I went through manufacturer sites and third party sites, making sure that there were no compatibility issues whatsoever. And guess what. It arrived at his house, I built it. I started it up. And it worked first time, and it's been working every day with no issues since then.

Someone that's good at what they do, will do a good job of making sure there is no issues. My job is working with, and building computers on a daily basis. I get paid to make sure that a computer I spec out and build, will never come back into the shop for hardware issues.

All this, I do without a highschool diploma, nor any sort of certification. They don't mean much in the real world if you can't stand behind your choices. Though, I will work towards all the correct ones to further myself in the industry though, as it can't hurt to get them.

Go ahead and shoot me a PM if you do feel like raging though. I'd love to see what you have to say back to me.


@ Dquan, I'd never heard of lapping before either, but if it does what it says it does, it's worth a shot if you feel comfortable with it.


This would be on topic if someone would try to keep their opinions which aren't facts out of the thread. Facts>Opinions.

 

[DQuaN]

I don't think anyone ever said that lapping doesn't lower temps (I may need to reread!). They said that in their opinion, lapping is a risky and drastic method of improving cooling that they wouldn't recommend. And I agree with that. There are plenty of other ways of lowering temps without butchering a CPU!

 

[bergauk]

Well the one thing I did notice that was said, and it made no sense, was the fact that the copper would somehow "corrode". I didn't know that it could.

Oh wait, it can't

 

[tlowr4]

... Go ahead and shoot me a PM if you do feel like raging though. I'd love to see what you have to say back to me. ...

Shall do, after I'm finished my Science Exam Not to rage, just to discuss. And I've had a few soda's so I'm calmer now.

Anyways, on the subject of lapping (which I haven't actually made an in-depth comment about yet), I think it's risky business. However for the devoted, knowledgeable person, it's certainly worth a shot (certainly not something I would do, I'd want to practice on a few Pentium's first). I also think that what would the difference be? Maybe 5˚C, maybe 8˚C, tops. Really, you could make up for that heat by upping the Heat-sink fan-speed with a 3rd party program/manual controller. It may create a bit more noise, but it's better than risking a $2 piece of sandpaper to a $500 CPU. 👍

And yes, unless you cooled your computer by throwing it over the side of your House-boat in the Nile River, than the copper won't corrode (in your lifetime, anyway).

EDIT: Uh-oh. Terronium-12 is viewing the thread. Time for me to find the nearest tree to climb...

 

[nick09]

Well the one thing I did notice that was said, and it made no sense, was the fact that the copper would somehow "corrode". I didn't know that it could.

Oh wait, it can't

I see you've never been to any science classes before. My point is that you are just making the process faster through sanding the cpu down to the copper layer. I've looked at sanding a cpu on tech websites and most of the time the reason behind it is that the cpu is not flat(say you bought it used, hard to get your money back from a private seller). That'd be the only real reason why I would think of sanding a cpu down.

 

[Terronium-12]

I I also think that what would the difference be? Maybe 5˚C, maybe 8˚C, tops. Really, you could make up for that heat by upping the Heat-sink fan-speed with a 3rd party program/manual controller. It may create a bit more noise, but it's better than risking a $2 piece of sandpaper to a $500 CPU. 👍

It depends on the lapping technique. The yield could be lower, within that range, or higher. Again, it's entirely dependent on the method of cooling. The best technique, at least that which I can remember, is that of a figure 8.

Also, don't confuse the lowering of idle temps for one of the reasons lapping is actually intended for: lowering load temps across all cores.

 

[Casio]

I can't believe some of you are actually suggesting lapping a CPU to even out/reduce core temperatures. You guys realise that thermal paste negates any small imperfections or airholes in CPU casing (Which there never is anyway these days).

Core temperatures are never going to be identical. See figure below for one of the main reasons, work it out, stop saying stupid things.